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Hi Tony,
As a past owner of your last boat I think I can understand where you are coming from. 3255 was not an easy boat to sail fast but was capable of going very fast at times. I think this is common with the baggys that came off the Chrshire Dinghy and Dive moulds. One thing for sure is that baggies don't like to carry weight and the only success we had was one year when we spent a lot of time down the gym and away from the pub!
Crusader would be a good chice, I believe the Crusader 88 was a variation from Gery Ledger and I understand that it has a bit more buoyancy under the mast. Might be worth a call to Gery to clarify? If I am right I think an "88" should carry weight well. I have also been told but can't remember the source that design 8 was very close to a Crusader. A Final Chapter might be a better bet on the sea and they were designed to carry weight. They are probbaly a bit sticky in the light stuff and inland but that shouldn't worry you. A Tigress is another possibility, in my view a better weight carring boat then your previous Cheshire Cat but maybe not so good these days on the sea.
Cheers, Dave

I had the pleasure of owning Lysistrata for a few years.
Around 1998 a friend asked me to help get an "old boat" out of their garage. The garage was falling down and was to be re-built. I recognised the boat stright away as I knew the first owner. Richard Brammal who owned this boat from new and sailed her regularly at Twickenham for many years. She passed on to other Twickenham memebers until she ended up with Dom Wells who took all the fittings off and the boat back to bare wood but didn't get any further. I spent some time re-varnishing and re-fitting her with the idea of getting her back on the water and hopefully getting her a new owner.
We completed the work and she was sailed a few times by me and loaned to others. I remember Graham Camm sailed her in the Twickenham Open once. We sailed her with some success in the Twickenham Regatta and at a couple of open meetings. Our best effort was winning the Vintage Inlands in 2001 when I was crewed by my daughter Caroline (only 6 years old at the time). We were a bit overpowered at times but flew down-wind. Caroline still remembers this event well, she has gone on to sail her Cadet with some success in more recent years.
I would say that the Proctor 11a is probably the best Ian Proctor N12, in the same way as his 9b Merlin. In terms of Vintage 12's this has to be one of the best for Vintage events unless on the sea (are there any vintage events on the sea?) when a China Doll would be the 12 of choice. I also believe the Chipendale boats of that time where the best too but that's just my view, others may disagree. I would certainly like to see this boat sailing on the circuit, perhaps even at the champs. I would have kept Lysistrata except that I have a lovely Cheshire Cat, a Merlin and my children were just getting into sailing and needed boats themselves (we now have 3 Cadets in the "collection"!!!).  Dave Croft (see also 2235, 2675, 2711, 2489, 2935, 3255).

The Cadets are holding a major regatta at the same time as Burton Week. There may be crews or helms available as some of the children have older siblings. If there is interest I can get an e-mail sent round the Cades to ask - let me know via this discussion board.
Regards, Dave

Can someone advise exactly where the 12's will be based? I see on the entry form the WPNSA is indicated but I have heard the 12's will be at Castle Cove SC, this is important as my kids will be doing a Cadet event the same week-end at Portland so my ability to sail my old 12 will depend on where it is.
By the way if anyone needs crews fo the Monday (Burton) there will be a number of very experienced Cadet sailors about as their event ends on the Sunday.
Regards, Dave

All,
There is a talk this Thursday evening at Frensham Pond SC by Olympic medalist, America's Cup and Round-the-World yachtsman Ian Walker, there are a few tickets left at £10, if you would like to come please e-mail  or call Dave Croft  on 07963475988
Ian has kindly offered his time, the talk is in aid of the Cadet GBR squad who are going to Argentina at the end of December for the World Championships. There is a strong N12 connection with names such as Henderson, Dingwall, Croft and Shorrock in the team.
Kind regards, Dave C
 
 

Where is the entry list? All I've heard is the Cadet national champion has stolen his Dad's boat and with the help of his sister will be trying to scare you all!

4a was the killer river boat for a long time, probably only bettered by the 11a. Should be a good classic racer!

Hi Iain,
You don't say what design boat. An alternative which was a popular mast in 70's and 80's is a Proctor Alpha. Have you looked around dinghy parks? I know there was an old Warlock at Tamesis recently, it was beyond repair but had all the spars. If its still there the club might be happy with a small donation to the RNLI.
I would be interested in the C-section if you decide it's not suitable with the position of the various key things such as spreaders and such don't suit a 12.
Regards, Dave
 

"Dave Croft sails his wooden boat with a lot of rig tension. The hull is reinforced against this load with what I would call bracing bars" - The "bars" are in fact wires which take some of the compression loads from the mast up to the deck/hull near the shrouds. They don't completely triangulate the forces but I believe they do add some stiffness and have probably helped keep the old boat from suffering the rig tension. I run between 350 and 450 Lbs tension (don't know if you cal that a lot these days).
Also, I used to own Tony's boat 3255. The sopace-frame in his boat is designed with a similar aim in mind but is probably better at traingulating the forces. This was avery good idea and was seen the Cheshire Dinghy and Dive baggies such as Twice Shy in the 80's. I think it didn't catch on because it did not allow a foredeck although perhaps it could have been modified to. I think as new materials evolved the need to have a space frame was less important, a bit like racing cars!

The Merlin’s have had a great revival with their old boats. A number of people have put carbon rigs/Kevlar sails on 50's boats and regularly clean up on the river even against the latest boats. Their vintage wing have now introduced a handicap system based on key performance enhancements like carbon rigs, new rules (big) spinnakers and so on. Perhaps this is something for the 12's to consider? At the moment the Admirals Cup covers anything from an Uffer King to a 90's Baggy, OK we have vintage = clinker but even that is not fair on the metal plate / ribbed boats.

My father  - Maurice Croft bought this boat in the mid-70's from Angus Dick who was at university with Mile Hoyle. The boat was very similar in shape to Mike's Pencil Slip, I expect they both shared ideas. The idea was to get a boat for my father to sail on the river at our local club. She was a nice boat to sail and at times very fast up-wind. The sails were a bit shot when we got her but were never replaced. I remember when we got the boat home we discovered that half the centreboard was missing!! It looked as if she had been trailed with the plate rubbing along the ground at some point (no it hadn't been that way towing home, Dad was very particular about trailing boats). We didn't have the boat very long and I borrowed her once or twice. I do remember David East's wife (Ricky?) borrowed her for a race at Queen Mary once. The original colour was bright yellow - no easily missed on the start line!!

Sam,
What a great idea. From the desciption it sounds like you are East Coast. There is a good Cadet and Youth section at Waldringfield a club which has associations with 12's going way back. You should consider approaching them, I'm sure most of the young sailors there won't know what a 12 is! It would probably need some kind folk to loan a few boats but the class could benefit in the long term if even one or two were tempted into 12's
Regards, Dave

Hi Tony,
I used to own 3255 back in the early 90's. It's nice to hear she's still about.
When I had her she had the aft tank, I am surprised it was taken out as it adds to the strenght and stiffness but now it's gone I suggest you take the advice of fitting a small bag in the transom area, the flaps will still work as no matter how tight you tie it down the water will find a way past. One thing also to check is that the main bags are secured low enough. It's all well and good to have 150lb bags but if they are half out of the water after a capsize they are not as efficient.
Where are you sailing the boat? We found she went very well at Salcombe and on open water but was tricky on the river.
Dave C
 

Hi Alistair,
Glad to hear you are working on the boat! I agree about the muscle boxes, on the river they will be useless but you need to be sure you can get enough rig tension with whatever you do to replace them.
I would like to get hold of a mast-ram muscle box but I don't think you have used that system. Let me know if you have one though and what you want for it.
Cheers,
Dave

I tried to work with the laser system on my Merlin a few years back and found if very difficult to tack and get the extension across the boat. The other problem was the mainsheet crossing over where the crew would sit in light/mediium winds. The problem is resolved by a hoop but then you have to move aft to tack which tends to put the transom in the water and slows you down. If you have a hoop it's more difficult for the crew to move aft quickly when its windy. All these problems are much reduced in a longer boat - crew doesn't need to dive back so quickly and transom doesn't drag on tacking so much.
I think, if you sail all the time on open water a hoop would be the way to go. If you sail in different places and inland then transom sheeting is best. Be interesting to see what you end up with, I think as a class we have been a bit conserative in this area.
Dave