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I see that the PY number for the modern N12 has increased by 6 points, but none of the older boats have changed.  We don't have enough data at our club to get meaningful data for just a few older boats so would it make sense to revise the older boats by +6 points too?

It's interesting what you say Richard, I wonder if you club is the norm for 12's sailing at club level. With the majority being older boats and very few of the newer designs racing at club level. Resulting most handicap returns being for 'slower' boats has meant the handicap has started to reflect the situation at your club. 

How does the current handicap compare to the suggested older boat handicaps?

Cancelled due to lack of interest 

Hello everyone after a year off the Milton Keynes National 12 open is back on the 2nd June forming the puddle round of the Midland Area series. You could even think of it as the unofficial Puddle National championships.


The plan is the same as previous years with briefing at 10:30, first race 11 o'clock, followed by lunch then 2 races afterwards.
For those who are thinking this sounds interesting but what's MKSC like?


Well it is small friendly sailing club on the edge of Caldecotte lake on the outskirts of MK Vegas with easy access from the A5 and only few roundabouts to negotiate from the M1.


So who's coming along to visit what could be MK Del Garda if the weather and Aylesbury Vale thermal turn up.

Yeah OK I did deserve that :-) but I was thinking if on arrange all boats built in the last 15-20 years are carrying about the same amount lead then we may as well get rid of it.


Absolute cost could be  an issue but I wonder when someone is getting into a class a sailor isn't really thinking how much a new boat costs. It something which might come later. As a result I can't see the cost of a new boat being a bar to stop people joining the class because there will be lots of other factors at play as to whether get a 12 or not.


eg. If I'm honest I have both looked building a new 12 and upgrading to newer 12 in my time I have been involved with 12s. In the end I didn't build a new 12 because I felt the rules were to restrictive and didn't give me the scope I looking to try out new ideas and test and learn about dinghy design and I ended designing building a new Cherub.


Then 10 years later when it came to considering a newer boat for mostly club racing and a few open meetings. Once again the we decided the 12 wasn't for us the, my wife found the floor height of the double bottom 12s uncomfortable and to be honest I didn't fancy living with the big winged rudder and we now own a RS200. Cost did also play a role because I'm pretty confident if put the 200 back on the market then I will pretty much get my money back. Which was more of a Brucey bonuses than deal breaker.


I do wonder how many people been through the same process and not plumbed for a 12.


Just in case you are wondering why I care how the 12 does long term it's because it's one of the reasons I got into sailing in the first place, taught me a lot about sailing and boats and recently was the boat me and wife chose to start sailing together (which I still own the 12).


Looking at the open meeting numbers for this year with 14 and 22 boats for the 2 Gul series this year, 15 boats at 12 Fest, 9 boats at NWNW and 11 boats at Salcombe with the only blip being Trent Valley at 5 boats (we would have been there apart from uni work got in the way). Turn outs to open meetings have been pretty good when measured against other classes. There seems to be a steady flow people popping up on here asking questions having just got in to the class. Leads me to think everything everything is heading in the right direction. 


Tim, Maybe your suggestion about less open meetings is a good thing and gives people dates people to focus on in their diary's.



It is a slightly shame though the 1 day restricted water open meeting might have died now.


I feel it would be good if the committee off the back of discussion at the AGM could publish a route map of how they plan to see the class growing in the coming years. It would also be good know if they positive about the future or not.


Tim on your comment about taking the design back to pre DCB I think both the foolish and Big Issue moulds have been chopped up so I guess there's no going back.

Gerry has a good point clubs which don't use the normal RYA teaching model of using singlehanders to teach sailing tend to have stronger youth fleets of double handers and more people sailing in general (Bassenthwaite Sailing Club is another one). There is also appearing a weight of evidence suggesting the RYA's approach of focusing on singlehanded sailing may have also done some structural damage to sailing has a whole leading to less people sailing in general.


Given the 12's size, responsiveness, good valve second-hand market and scope to try out your ideas. Makes the 12 ideally placed for teenagers looking for something different it just how does the 12 compete with the x-factor of the Feva, RS 200 and 29er?


After a recent experience of trying to establish a 12 fleet at Milton Keynes Sailing Club (perfect place to sail 12's). Which after some interest at the start so faltered and came to nothing (Beggers Maid is on the market to possibly be broken up due to not able to find a new home). Instead the last 18 months MKSC has started growing Feva and 200 fleets. Which has lead me to think there must have been parents looking for a boat the sail with there children but 12 failed to capture their interest.


I don't really having anything to suggest apart a 12 still offers a good boat for a teenager looking for something different to sail and a more of a challenge than your normal SMOD or parents looking for an fun boat to sail with their children (this last point is a strategy which is working well for the class). I do wonder though if by playing to different groups (being vibrant and exciting to attract teenagers while appearing save and easy to handle for parents) risks attracting neither one or the other successfully. In saying that by opting to target parents and child sailing is a good investment in the future but by no means guaranteed. When you consider how many sailors started sailing 12's when I did and are still involved in the class.


In stimulating more boat building I wonder if cost is really the problem given sailors are still finding money for moths, 14's and merlins . Unless there really is group of people out there with boats drawn but projects on hold due the cost producing moulds.


If there is then have they considered a male mould? Which would be cheaper than a full set of female moulds.


Limiting exotic materials would save money and I do question if a 12 really does need to be made from nomex so I could see good reasons for limiting the use of carbon (would be interesting if the tech committee could do a cost comparison for limiting carbon to high load areas only). I don't think a sail limit will have much effect because as far as I'm aware there isn't an arms racing going with sails and the front of fleet at the moment and if there is it benefits the rest of class through trickle down of decent secondhand sails.


Something which might stimulate some boat building would some rule changes?


I know this not a popular suggestion but what about reducing the amount of lead boats a carrying? In other words a weight reduction.


While I don't have the figures I get the feeling all boats built in the last few years are carrying a few kilos of correctors, is this true?


If this is the case and how do amateur built boats compare to the professionally built boats?


An left field option which will help keep the value in the current boats and tooling which has been produced. Might be to freeze the hull design around the DCB or Hijack or both and free up the development around sails while leaving the rules around foils as they are. So there still something for people to tinker with.


This last approach as worked well for the 18ft Skiff class for reducing costs and has largely saved the class.

Hello Chris


Sorry with another storm looking lie it's set to hit the England on Saturday I'm going to bailout early.


JG

Evening all, just a quick thank you to Paul and Chris for coming along. Gerald and Andy for wanting to come but life not quite working out so they could make it. 


As Paul said it was a fab days sailing and it was a shame the wasn't more people there to enjoy it.


I hope everyone who could get out on the water and didn't come because they were racing at home helping grow their own fleet.


This isn't the thread to discuss it but I feel the class as a whole needs to decide if more needs to done to support events on restricted water.
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With the weather forcast looking dodgy ie. rainy and 5 guesting 6 (or skiffy "blowing snot to dogs off chains with rabbits in the park, mate!") completely understand if you 2 want to give travelling to MK a miss.

Brilliant Chris look forward to seeing you and Bouncer on Sunday. I have also heard rumours Gerald will be coming along as well so there should be some good racing. Shame the weather is going to be a bit dodgy though can only hope windguru is wrong about the rain.

Yup it's all still on, changing rooms finished but I'm not sure I can promise a BBQ lunch.


Sorry to hear news about the your mast Chris hopfully it won't be to long till it's fixed.


Do we have anymore takers?

Yeah it turned out to be a good call in the end as the wind never really showed up in MK as well. The good thing I got few jobs done on the other boat.


Good to near you are getting on well with Ella, I remember her when Nigel Waller had her and she's a well built ship.

Hello Andy


Sorry I didn't realize you were planning on coming along, I hope postponing the event hasn't messed up your weekend plans to much.


To make it up to everyone we planning a sausage sizzle for lunch on 30th.


How are you getting on with Ella BTW?


Smilie

Morning Yoteeez


Due to a number of factors including the MKSC changing rooms being out of action the 12 open tomorrow has been postponed till the 30th July.


See you all in July


Smilie

Hello


Just a bit of an update.


Milton Keynes SC changing rooms have been under going refurbishment unfortunately the project has over run. This means only the disabled toilet will be available and the changing rooms should be available for changing only but the showers will not be. Other than this the running of the open meeting will be unaffected.


On another note we are planning to offer bacon butties for rigging and plenty of cakes for tea time.


see you on the 18th June


Smilie

Will be good to see you both 


Last year I think we ran the last two races back to back to be off the water by 4 o'clock. If needs be and everyone is happy we might be able to wrap up sooner than that.