Vintage Debate

[paul turner]

Only four vintage boats entered for this year's Burton Champs at Hayling Island, and you will have seen from the results they only got out to sail in one race due to the testing weather and sea conditions. Of the four, N1657 suffered a broken mast, N2335 suffered some internal damage and (embarassingly) we had to be rescued. Onshore there was much debate about the continuing viability and wisdom of sailing vintage boats 40+ years old on the open sea.

An initial suggestion was made that we should consider holding an annual inland vintage championship in 2013 as a new event to encourage the many older vintage sailors to partcipate - indeed, some of the "fast boys" might also wish to borrow an old wooden yot to join in. Perhaps even some former N12 sailors might be tempted back to sail their old boats if the commitent is only for a weekend?

Concerns were raised that this could split the class and devalue the National Championships. However we already have a separate Vintage series (the Witchcraft Bailer) and the number of clinker boats at the Burton is likely to decline more as they (and their helms) age.

As there was not sufficent sailing for the Shotgun Trophy this year it was mutually proposed by the vintage sailors present at Hayling Island, that it be carried forward to be raced for as part of the Leigh & Lowton Summer Event meeting at the end of August (subject to the approval of the NTOA committee, GILL and Leigh & Lowton SC). I am copying this to the "powers that be" for hopefully a positive reponse for 25/26 August.

As regards 2013, Kevan has identified what appears to be an eminently suitable reservoir venue in Derbyshire, readily accessable from all directions of travel. We just need sufficient expressions of support to move this forward.

Speaking for myself, I will go to the Burton next year to help but not to sail (although I MAY take a boat to sail just the Burton Cup race only). I see this proposal as a positive development for the class and I hope that you do too!
Paul

[edwillett]

Paul
Excellent suggestions all round....you can count on my support for sure!
Cheers
Ed

[nigelf (Guest)]

Paul. It was good to meet up at Hayling and have a chat about the vintage boats, including my first N12 1149. Congratulations on your award - richly deserved. I have more than a soft spot for the older boats and am very interested in your ideas. My thoughts are more than I can easily post here so I shall send you an email. If my computer doesn't like it (it crashes from time to time) I shall write a letter. Best wishes. Nigel Fordyce.

[Chadders]

Hi Paul having been party to the discussions in the bar at Hayling Island I thoroughly endorse this idea for the vintage racing/championships. 
I dont think it will detract from the fleet for Burton as those of us who took our vintage boats also have more modern boats or can certainly borrow more modern boats and still do Burton if we wish to do so.  Having just qualified for my OAP I can confirm that I too am very unlikely to do another full Burton event but hope to put in many more years at inland events.  The thoughts of an event not linked to a Gill event also appeals as I too think that we could tempt a few of the fast boys into clinker boats and between us we can manage a few spare boats for those who fancy a go.  Could we incorporate a few ribbed boats too with some simple handicapping (and buckets)perhaps?  Just a few initial thoughts from up North.  Howard C aka Chadders.

[angus]

Not being present at burton, it is dificult to comment on the conditions, bu they did look fairly extreme and it looks like most of the AC fleet has similar problems and I wouldn't be surprised if they had a fair few breakages as well.
I think a large part of the problem is due to the north south divide with most of the db boats down in the south and most of the vintage boats furthur north. The distances involved are the main reason why I havn't come to the last 2 Burtons. Travelling 2/3s the length of Britain on a Bank Holiday weekend is not fun.
My feeling is fine have a seperate vintage championship if you want but I don't really see the point of it. I will still go to Burton with a vintage boat when it is with in range because I am just going along for a bit of fun, I know I have no chance of winning anything (on the water) so I might as well sail round in a barge and relax (Although Mr. Jones wasn't very relaxing)
You can certainly count me in for a vintage event in the north of England but I certainly would not be prepared to travel as far for it as I would for Burton. 

[John Meadowcroft]

Hi Paul

I believe that the Class is stronger together than separately.  

I think that a Vintage Championship should be part of a larger event such as the Inland Championship, which should be our best attended event of the year, but which in recent times has not been (despite being in the North of England last year).  I would suggest finding a suitable large reservoir (in Derbyshire as Kevan suggested to you) and making it the venue for the Inland and Vintage Championships next year.  

John

[paul turner]

Nigel has given me clearance to post his email to me:
 
Hello Paul. As promised on the NTOA website, here are a few thoughts on vintage N12s. Some of my ideas are probably a bit extreme but are driven by the notion that the class has become  excessively technology based. The last straw for me was the introduction of foiling rudders which have led to the outclassing of a large number of very good boats. In the past the class was always very careful not to allow anything which would have that effect but the urge to develop in the N12s seems to have overtaken one of the basic, long-held tenets. In this respect, the class compares unfavourably with the Merlin Rockets where quite elderly boats are still competitive and the rules have changed little.

We have to consider whether the vintage boats are a finite number, namely those currently in existence or is there a possibility of resurrecting the old form of construction with a simpler set of rules leading to a simpler boat with easier handling characteristics. If we set up a special championship for the vintage boats that exist, with the best will in the world those boats are not likely to last all that long and the notion might die away. Would it be too much to think that a new generation of vintage boats might arise, boats which might attract some of those who drift off to other classes on account of the more extreme characteristics of the latest boats? It looks as though the latest N12s (DCB and Paradigm) are coming in at around £11,000 which is a lot of money and associated complications for a 12ft. boat without a spinnaker or trapeze. The fact that only 3 new boats were built last year might be regarded as supporting evidence. Also, there are more and more older people in the class, as everywhere else, and the latest N12s take some handling and agility which we older types no longer have. I am not thinking of a one-design N12 and would favour leaving the opportunity there for different designers to get to work, but within a much tighter framework of rules. Has anyone any  idea of the relative costs of plastic planks as against plywood planks?

If we are talking only about the existing stock of vintage boats, the biggest problem I see is the inability of most of us to repair and generally maintain them to a good standard and not everyone has garaging or similar facilities to carry out such work.

If I could get my old boat N1149 back, in its original condition, I would jump at the chance. As things are, the N12 has become a very specialised boat. As you know, it was originally intended to be a cheaper and simpler boat than its “big brother” the International 14.

I will be most interested in the views of others.

Sincerely, Nigel Fordyce.
 

[edwillett]

I see lots of positive thoughts and suggestions in this debate so far. The main outcome and result I see will be to encourage more N12's onto the water...whether they are Vintage, AC or modern is irrelevant to me, we have alarge number of sailable boats across the country and if we can create an event where more people join in and where large numbers of sails with N on them can be seen it has to be good for the Class.
I personally didnt "read" this as an attempt to "split" the Class at all...just move the award of the Shotgun Trophy from the Burton Event to an Inland Event that is going to attract a larger Vintage turnout and is more geographically favourable. So I agree with Pauls ideas and John M's suggestion...and also with Angus...I would love to come to Burton Weeek(end), but with a south coast venue the distance and time involved in getting there makes it impractical for a weekend (even a long one), and then one is at risk (as this year) of the weather...in years gone by the longer week-long event made attendance a more practical proposition for those with a very long distances to travel and there was less risk of the weather holding the same patterns for an entire week...eg in 1990 at Llandudno we had gales for most of the week, but did manage 3 races eventually....but I fully understand that the weekend long event has been very succesful in boosting attendance.
Anyway...keep up the debate! And since I was already planning to come to Leigh and Lowton I was delighted with the proposal....
PS...Chadders..I was amused at your "Thoughts from up North.."...I always considered you to be in the deep south.....

[martin 1262 (Guest)]

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[paul turner]

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Posted for Martin
[size=x-small;" size="2"><font style="font-size: 12]Some interesting points here, and I guess an objective is to see vintage 12's been sailed for all to enjoy both today and in years to come.

I am always somewhat puzzled why Vintage boats enter BW, after all most boats are in excess of 40 years old, and when they are originally built I doubt the builders ever thought they would be used on the sea on big courses so far in the future, That does not take away though the spirit of the current owners to sail them and I say thanks for keeping that spirit alive. However that cannot continue for ever without some serious money spent on maintaining these olds boats, I am sure over time sea sailing like this have some impact on how these boats are held together. Even though I once had a vintage which I restored (at some expense) I personally would be hardbroken to find it disintegrate at the first big gust and wave.

I therefore think to move vintage boats inland, and to race a separate series/championship is a good idea, if only to preserve these boats for more years to come. I think most vintage owners have a newer AC or DB boat which would not preclude them continuing to race at BW.

I am not sure about the idea though of new boats being built to a vintage template ie plastic clinker. This does remove the whole ethos of vintage sailing ie to sail old boats against each other and revive the spirit of sailing these great craft. I think though as well the rules of development should be kept to the rules at the time they were built, so (and forgive me for saying this Paul), winged rudders on old boat was not something that would have been considered 40 years ago. That is just a personal view, from someone who has since sold his Vintage boat!!! Building new boats (in plastic!) with all the current development thinking seems to me not right, yes by all means build a new wooden clinker boat to a china doll design or whisper or starfish, but what would be stopping someone coming up with a design similar to a dcb! (Not even sure if that is technically possible?).
So lots to debate I look forward to see how the debate develops!

Martin
3458 ex 2306, 2458,2659,3355.   
 
PS Tried add this to 12 site cannot add to message forum
 
 

[paul turner]

Tom has already responded to the suggestion about running the Shotgun Trophy at Leigh & Lowton - quote from his email copiedto the vintage section/other interested parties:

[face=Calibri]Hi Paul,[/face]
[face=Calibri]In principle that is not a problem with me, although I love having the vintage boats and vintage sailors at the Champs. It is well worth reminding you that last time we went to Brixham we only sailed one race in more than ten knots, and the sail to the start is as short as any sea venue and the launching easy, plus  whilst we were screeching/swimming around Hayling Bay there was no wind for at least one day in Torbay!  [/face]
 

[Vince]

Fiona and I sailed N2531 in the 2009, 2010 and 2011 Burton Cup races, and from that perspective have to say I can't see why the age of the boats is the issue;
- in 2009 at Thorpe Bay in very strong winds we started but decided on the first beat the winds were too strong and cautiously retired ( and would probably have done the same in our Final Chapter)
- fantastic sail in the 2010 Burton at Weymouth, no problems
- another great sail at Brightlingsea in 2011, beat quite a few newer boats on the water
In the Firefly class plenty of 40 and 50 year old boats compete and actually win their champs at the same sort of venues we go to and in strong conditions; the age of the boats is demonstrably not an issue
We are all responsible yachtsmen; Isn't it up to seamanlike judgement by each helm before he decides to go afloat to be sure that he and his boat are up to the conditions?
A good selection of other vintage boats in the Burton has been a real incentive for us to enter, it would be a shame to lose the numbers.

[ntoa]

I have collated the Vintage entry at Burton Week from the year 2000. Vintage boats have not attended BW in any numbers for many years until the revival in 2008/2009 onwards. The earlier years of Vintage activity was more focused on the boats themselves and less on racing them.

Looking at 2000 BW ( Torquay) there was only  1 vintage  Entry  with this exception no other boat below 3197
2001 - Porthpean - no Vintage boats lowest sail number  3007 
2002 - Tenby - no vintage boats lowest sail number 3199
2003 - Looe - no Vintage boats  lowest sail number 3111
2004 - Castle Cove Weymouth - no vintage boats lowest sail number  3000
2005 - Abersoch - no vintage boats lowest sail number 3154
2006 - Porthpean - 1 vintage boat 2134 lowest other sail number 3154
2007 - Brixham - no vintage boats lowest sail number 2993
2008 - Teignmouth - 3 vintage boats lowest other sail number 3162
2009 - Thorpe Bay - 7 vintage boats lowest other sail number 3171
2010 - Weymouth - 4 vintage boats lowest other sail number 2765
2011 - Brightlingsea 6 vintage boats lowest other sail number 3179
2012 - Hayling Island -4 vintage boats lowest other sail number 3003

In 2000- 2008 the Vintage boats all completed 80-100% of the races

Since 2009 they have only managed to complete an average of 42% of the races probably mainly due to the recent windy burtons we have had.

On a related point when talking to Paul I suggested that the Vintage event might not be combined or clashing with any other event in order to allow other Non Vintage Helms to compete in borrowed boats ( No slur intended to the age of the Vintage Helms!!)


Kevan

[Tim Gatti]

My first Burton was at Teignmouth in 2008, the last of the week-long events,  when Seb and I sailed my vintage Mk12 N2255 'Purely Platonic' to a respectable 29th place and were briefly joined by Paul Turner in 'Starfish' and Richard White in 'Mr Jones' for the Burton Race itself, although unfortunately both retired for (and after!) an early bath on that occasion.
The conditions were pretty wet and breezy for much of the week but we had some thoroughly enjoyable sailing off the beach and no gear failures.
The next Burton was Thorpe Bay when Yvonne McInnes and I were the very first winners of the Shotgun Trophy - v high winds at the start of the Burton Cup race caused a lot of the fleet - both ancient and modern, to retire early and we had a very windy last day - but it was another hugely enjoyable event with more vintage boats in attendance.
Then and for the next two Burtons at Weymouth and Brightlingsea, the core of the vintage fleet consisted of the four boats sailed by Howard Chadwick, Brian Kitching, Paul Turner and myself with Angus, Vince, Ian Purkis and others joining us on occasion.
At Hayling Island this year there were just the 'core four' in attendance and after 'Just Lucky' broke her mast coming in over the Bar on Day 2, we were down to three.
Given the number of vintage boats still in circulation I am disappointed that it has not been possible to encourage more of them to join us at our National Championship event but I think there are perhaps good reasons for this:
1. Increasing age of helms  - even the reduced duration four-day event can be a challenge if the conditions are on the rough side when a capsize can often lead to an early end to a race...that's if you've managed to reach the start-line. (Not so with the double-bottomed boats)
2. Increasing age of boats - there's a lot of time and effort involved in ensuring a 40/50/60 year old wooden boat can survive the rough conditions often experienced in recent Burton events and many helms are not keen to put their old boats through that sort of punishment.

3. Some vintage crews just don't like sailing on the sea.
4. Some vintage owners are relatively new to sailing (and to 12's) and often don't have the confidence in themselves, their crews or their boats to participate in a big fleet start in tidal conditions a mile or more from shore.
5. Some have neither the required time nor money to invest in a four-day Championship event.
I love sea sailing and will continue to attend the Burton but I can see that, despite a lot of encouragement, we have not managed to significantly increase Vintage fleet attendance in recent years.
For that reason I think the suggestion of an Inland Vintage Championship event in 2013 is a good one and a positive way to encourage more vintage 12 owners to get their boats on the water.  Running it as a 'separate' event i.e. not in parallel with the Inlands, could also mean that we get other 12 sailors participating who would otherwise be in their DB boats - the likes of Graham and Zoe for example - or maybe even John and Katie in 'Cinzano'..how good would it be to see her back in the fleet). There are certainly boats available for helms and crews to borrow and I know that Paul Turner has had interest from a number of 'vintage helms' who would be keen to rekindle their contact with the 12 Fleet.

I definitely think it's worth giving it a go.
Tim Gatti.. N12 Vintage Rep

[paul turner]

Correction - Burton Race 2008 - N2020 Starfish DID FINISH the race despite going for an early bath! Px