Vintage Debate

[Tim Gatti]

Of course you did Paul - my mistake

[angus]

I heard it was a very early bath!

[Chadders (Guest)]

It says guest cos I have nicked Sarah,s IPad and can't remember my login as my Pc and laptop remember it for me. Just to mention a couple of points more.
Yes Ed from where you are Yorkshire is the deep South.
No wonder Paul is upset as if he would fall in!
I agree with John about keeping the fleet together but still think the idea of an event that would allow our dual boat owners to come out and play in their vintage boats and non owners the time to borrow one and join us would be an excellent way of promoting the class as well as the fun to be had from our older craft.   We can still come to Burton if we wish in any legal Twelve but just 4 regular supporters is not enough and we are very conscious of holding up proceedings when doing back to back racing. 
Whilst numbers were low for last years inlands (in the North) it is perhaps worth mentioning that we had already had a bank holiday burton and bank holiday anniversary weekend both with good numbers. 
I agree travel on a bank holiday is as bad as it gets especially when we are going even further off centre I guess it's a trade off against using up more holiday.
  If we do go for a combined event please can it be in summer rather than late season.  Howard C aka Chadders

[paul turner]

[face=Calibri]Email from Chadders:[/face]

[face=Calibri]Hi my memory for what it's worth is that we did indeed have big numbers at Ripon as we do at Yorkshire Ouse and Hykeham was fairly good too.  I think the significant factor is that YOSC, Ripon and Yeadon all have good numbers of vintage boats and we lend them out too to boost numbers.  I agree we like to play in the warmer weather perhaps because we tuck our boats up in winter and have to wait until its warmer to get them varnished etc (or stuck back together).[/face]
[face=Calibri]On a quick count last year we had over 20 boats at Yeadon owned by 6 people and most were vintage.[/face]
Howard

[angus]

Regarding boats waiting for vintage boats to finish in back to back races I believe that the Gill rules allow the race officer to finish boats a lap or laps early when the leading boat has finished at there discretion, this seems a sensible idea in back to back racing although I have never seen the discretion used!
I think most people who have a vintage boat also have a none vintage one which is always going to effect the numbers at events that are not purely vintage.

[paul turner]

From Dave Peacock:

Hi Paul
 
My concern is that despite a disappointing championships, vintage should stay as a combined element of major N12 sailing events and not split off anymore.

The class is weak enough as it is and vintage is something valuable we have that others don't.

[paul turner]

Tim's observations on vintage sailing at the Inlands:

Hi Paul 

I did the Inlands at Northampton in the Pipedream once on one damp weekend in November some years ago - I remember my shouts of 'starboard' on the start line being ignored by the pushy drivers of several modern 12's keen to get a good (if illegal) start.
 
It was v late, dark and extremely cold by the time we got back to the boat park at Yeadon on the Sunday night.
 
To be honest, as a result I'm not that keen on going to distant events at that time of year - even if there are fireworks on offer!
 
Tim
 

[Tim Gatti]

Dave
I really don't think that Paul is suggesting that vintage boats should cease participation as a combined element of major N12 sailing events.
Despite already having had their own discrete Vintage Series for some years - 'The Witchcraft Bailer' with venues around the country, many vintage owners continue to support many other major N12 events, in particular the Gill series which now allocates prizes for Vintage boat participants - and long may that continue - in fact several of the Vintage fleet hope to be sailing with the DB's and AC's at Harwich later this month.
And judging by some of the responses to this thread, vintage boats will continue to compete at the Burton.
His main point is that despite huge enthusiasm in recent year from a small core of vintage sailors, myself included, numbers in attendance at the National Champs are minimal and that because of conditions and the age/susceptibility of the boats, these participants are often unable to go out racing in the company of the 'modern' fleet and some are feeling they are not really getting value for money, or enjoyment, from the event.
When we do venture out often the only time we are sailing in the company of the DB's and fast AC's is on the start-line and up the first beat - after that it's very much a case of two separate fleets on the water with the db's often finishing at least one lap ahead of the vintage boats.

In the circumstances, I think the suggestion of an Inland Vintage Championships - which essentially could be seen as a logical extension of the existing Vintage Series, is a good one and surely 'adds value' to the Vintage Fleet and the N12 Class.  It is also one which may attract and encourage more vintage owners to participate in major N12 events in the future, not less.
It certainly won't stop me attending future Burton events as I love my sea-sailing - but given increasing travel and accommodation costs, I will probably enter late in the game when weather predictions for the long weekend are available.
Tim

[angus]

I think there are a few trees having the wrong bark stripped off them here. I honestly thing that geography is the main factor why there are not more vintage boats entering Burton wee (short week). The sea is also a factor, but not the strength or fitness of the boats, I think  vintage boats that are sailed regularly are stronger and less likely to breakages than AC boats, I also think there is a perseption by many people that if they are going to Butron they should take their fastest boat when they would possibly have more fun if they took their vintage boat and relaxed a bit more.
On Tim's commments about the Inlands I can fully understand where he's coming from but I have been to 4 inlands the closest being Scaling Dam  which is only a three day husky ride and fully enjoyed all of them although the fireworks well out do the pub quiz any day.
I can also fully sympaphise with Tim having been taken out by a db  boat myself I do think there is a very small minority of the db fleet who seem to think that normal rules of sailing don't apply with AC and vintage boats.
I think if Burton was held on a resivior in the North of England you may get more vintage boats than Dbs!
Graham when are you going to fit a spell checker to this thing.
Going off at a bit of a tangent as I understand it while Tim's Uffa King (is it?) will qualify as a vintage boat it won't as an AC boat. I don't see a problem with this, but what I have noticed over the past few yearsis an increasing number of people selling there DB boats to go back to AC boats again there is no problem with this but I can see a point arising where as the front of the class continues to dig its self into an increasingly expensive culdersac that a limited number of AC boats will become higly prized and priced eventually forcing people to look else where and I was wondering if there maybe a case for allowing new boats built to old desgins to qualify for Ac status.
I realise I have rather wandered off the thread here......

[Ken Goddard (Guest)]

As a retired Vintage Twelve enthusiast I thought that I should maintain a low profile on this long and interesting discussion. Fundamentally I support Paul Turner's suggestion of an inland championship for Vintage Twelves in 2013 and hope it goes ahead.
However I would like to make a couple of points. In his first contribution and in some of the others, a suggestion is made of getting front-of-the-class, top sailors into Vintage boats. I have a sour memory of this. At one of our Witchcraft Bailer meetings at Earlswood Lakes about 10 years ago, a whizz-kid from the East Coast, borrowed a rather good boat from a hapless local and with his honed skills and deep knowledge of the rules, proceeded agressively to drive the ageing buoy racers in ancient boats the wrong side of marks, luffed them up the bank etc. The result was that a friendly meeting among enthusiasts was shattered.
 
The second point is about the spread of boat speed and helm experience among the present group of Vintage Twelve owners. Some boats which have been the subject of heroic restorations and have less skilled owner/sailors will still be sailing at these championships when Howard has gone home for tea. The only way to give these less speedy boat/owners something to go for is to have some sort of handicap system operating for some of the races. I have always admired the Derwent Reservoir S.C. handicap system but there are other ways of doing this. From past experiences I may be able to comment on this.
 
Ken Goddard, N.2300 Duodecimal 

[Jennie Clark]

I like the idea of an event which would allow us to have some sort of a celebration of our history with as many Vintage boats there as possible.  It appeals to us much more than Burton (which doesn't appeal at all).  Himself says 'Wroxham'!!  We won't be at L&L to take part in this year's event sadly - will still be on some island off the West Coast of Scotland. 

 

[grazz]

An observation, the current Burton week format, with typically 1 hours races, is probably more attractive to the older end of the fleet (boats) than the previous full week format where quite a few of the races were up to 2 hours. However there are probably more vintage sailors who are up for sailing in land. We introduced the pursuit race concept for the "Grand pursuit race" at the inland summer event which I think this works pretty well. There is also the option of using personal handicaps (we apply a few at the summer event pursuit race). Could a similar system be used for a vintage champs - may be based on Burton week \\ Gill series results.

The key to a succesful even will be motivating people with the older boats all over the country. I believe there a quite a few at clubs on the Thames.

Myself and Zoe would be up for a vintage champs and don't mind an appropriate handicap.

Graham

[CRU 12]

I am extremely pleased to see such a vast amount of discussion on this subject.  As you may guess, I was party to the early discussions at Hayling Island and especially the dinner time conversation during the Burton Dinner, about how we could recouperate from such a disappointing event for the Vintage sector. Did you know we had decided it was time for the WORLD SERIES INDOOR N12 Vintage EVENT?    No?  You should sit with me next time.!

Anyway, to get back to somewhat more serious ideas about Vintage N12, which I am passionate about.  I have given a day or so to marshall my thoughts before replying and adding to the conversation.  I am really pleased to see Kevan's facts presented so clearly - it has helped me gain assurance that I wasn't seeing things from a skewed perspective.

So my points are:

It has been harder sailing in the Vintage section in the last couple of years when so many events have been so windy - for example: Northampton N12 Regatta 2011, Aldeburgh 2011, Burton Week last 4 years.  It is demoralising to turn up to such events and not sail, often after a long journey too - although don't get me wrong the social aspect is always second to none, but I want to sail too!!!

we do not see it as a split in the class, the Witchcraft Bailer series already exists for Vintage boats, there are prizes for the Vintage section in many events

a dedicated Vintage event will celebrate the uniqueness of our class by promoting the competitive sailing of some very old craft by enthusiasts, old hands and bright young upstarts - although don't forget, although your boat may be designated 'Vintage' you may still be trying to sail an apple against a pear - 'Vintage' does encompass (as you all know) some significant developments in design and performance which due to time have been surpassed  [I'm working on all the specific facts here but you'll have to bear with me whilst I get it all correct - but trust me, I'm a midwife!!!!] and so despite the design advantages they all sail under the same "flag"

if the Burton is only viable (as I have heard) because the Vintage section turn up - what does that say about the Burton event?  Burton Week must be a viable event without taking the Vintage section into account.  If I were to get very cynical, I could suggest that if Hayling Island wasn't viable without the Vintage section, we have just subsidised your sailing for doing nothing ourselves - but then I did say I was only saying that by being very cynical.
yes, there have been a number of modifications to Vintage N12 such as carbon fibre booms, carbon fibres foils, glass fibres foils or even (heavens preserve us!) foiled rudders, and if one wanted to be really extreme - the materials used for sails, sheets, pulleys, shrouds and shackles are certainly not vintage!;  but this is a development class, so anything goes as long as it is within the rules
we will still attend N12 events in Vintage boats - see us at Harwich this coming weekend

so where does that get me:
being wholeheartedly in support of a Vintage Championship, open to all and anyone who has or who can borrow a Vintage N12
in favour of a significant event in the 2013 calendar, which I am more than happy to organise
but not totally partisan to the Vintage section, an enthusiastic member of the N12 class,

so continued support of all N12 events whatever I happen to be crewing in - but let's face it I'd hardly be in a DCB if the helm wanted to win!!!!



oops there goes my sense of the humorous again

and if the idea of a  WORLD SERIES INDOOR N12 Vintage EVENT  (screened on BBC2)

doesn't grab you, let me tell you about the virtual N12 sailing game........

oops I diverge into the sublime again....


kind regards and see you at Harwich in an old bateau  (combined helm/crew/boat age 158)

Christine
Trent Valley N12 class rep

[paul turner]

I'm glad that CRU12's (combined age) maths is not good! Px

[paul turner]

Hello all,
I attach for your consideration an email that I have received from Mike Liggett. Mike had N.1777 until a few years ago until it went to John Meadowcroft and I corresponded with him on a number of occasions while I was Vintage Wing Rep.. I think some of his comments deserve further discussion.
Mike Liggett[/url]
To: Ken Goddard
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 9:50 AM
Subject: Vintage debate
 
Greetings Ken,
Have just been reading the vintage debate on the N12 website.  I agree with many of your comments.  We have similar problems in the M/R vintage fleet (at least in the 12's you can limit vintage to clinker construction).  With the Merlins it is age only related and we are now starting to see comparatively "modern" designs from the 80's now entering the fray (Smokers & NSM's)!  However, it is not only the newer boats, it is old boats that are being "pimped" with carbon this and that and laminate Mylar sails, etc., not to mention agressive helms.  At a Thames club last year I was asked to move out of the way by a faster boat even though he had no rights at this particular mark, not to mention the Professional "pumpers" who rock & roll the boats trhrough the fleet!
My fear is that the real vintage boats (probably sail numbers below 1000 for both M/R & N12) will just not sail as they are "not competitive" and this inevitably leads to no interest in restoring or maintaining these boats and they are lost forever.  These are the boats I really fear for.  We need events that people who really love these beautiful boats can sail, admire and race against like minded helms in perhaps the true amateur spirit of "its not the winning but just the taking part".
I append a handicap system that we use for the Merlin DeMay series which we are using at present.  It gives all boats a base PY of 1000 and depending on various attributes this is increased or decreased.  It is not ideal but what handicap system is!
I am not convinced on the viability of a Vintage Championships as again I feel it will be dominated by the newer (2000+ sail numbers) even if it is on an inland venue ( I could not sail M/R 235 with wooden mast, etc. on our comparatively sheltered lake at our recent Merlin vintage meeting due to strong winds).
Hope all is well with you.  Please feel free to share any of my comments.
 </font>
Best wishes,
 </font>
Mike Liggett.