Only four vintage boats entered for this year's Burton Champs at Hayling Island, and you will have seen from the results they only got out to sail in one race due to the testing weather and sea conditions. Of the four, N1657 suffered a broken mast, N2335 suffered some internal damage and (embarassingly) we had to be rescued. Onshore there was much debate about the continuing viability and wisdom of sailing vintage boats 40+ years old on the open sea.
An initial suggestion was made that we should consider holding an annual inland vintage championship in 2013 as a new event to encourage the many older vintage sailors to partcipate - indeed, some of the "fast boys" might also wish to borrow an old wooden yot to join in. Perhaps even some former N12 sailors might be tempted back to sail their old boats if the commitent is only for a weekend?
Concerns were raised that this could split the class and devalue the National Championships. However we already have a separate Vintage series (the Witchcraft Bailer) and the number of clinker boats at the Burton is likely to decline more as they (and their helms) age.
As there was not sufficent sailing for the Shotgun Trophy this year it was mutually proposed by the vintage sailors present at Hayling Island, that it be carried forward to be raced for as part of the Leigh & Lowton Summer Event meeting at the end of August (subject to the approval of the NTOA committee, GILL and Leigh & Lowton SC). I am copying this to the "powers that be" for hopefully a positive reponse for 25/26 August.
As regards 2013, Kevan has identified what appears to be an eminently suitable reservoir venue in Derbyshire, readily accessable from all directions of travel. We just need sufficient expressions of support to move this forward.
Speaking for myself, I will go to the Burton next year to help but not to sail (although I MAY take a boat to sail just the Burton Cup race only). I see this proposal as a positive development for the class and I hope that you do too!
Paul 8)
Paul
Excellent suggestions all round....you can count on my support for sure!
Cheers
Ed
Paul. It was good to meet up at Hayling and have a chat about the vintage boats, including my first N12 1149. Congratulations on your award - richly deserved. I have more than a soft spot for the older boats and am very interested in your ideas. My thoughts are more than I can easily post here so I shall send you an email. If my computer doesn't like it (it crashes from time to time) I shall write a letter. Best wishes. Nigel Fordyce.
Hi Paul having been party to the discussions in the bar at Hayling Island I thoroughly endorse this idea for the vintage racing/championships.
I dont think it will detract from the fleet for Burton as those of us who took our vintage boats also have more modern boats or can certainly borrow more modern boats and still do Burton if we wish to do so. Having just qualified for my OAP I can confirm that I too am very unlikely to do another full Burton event but hope to put in many more years at inland events. The thoughts of an event not linked to a Gill event also appeals as I too think that we could tempt a few of the fast boys into clinker boats and between us we can manage a few spare boats for those who fancy a go. Could we incorporate a few ribbed boats too with some simple handicapping (and buckets)perhaps? Just a few initial thoughts from up North. Howard C aka Chadders.
Not being present at burton, it is dificult to comment on the conditions, bu they did look fairly extreme and it looks like most of the AC fleet has similar problems and I wouldn't be surprised if they had a fair few breakages as well.
I think a large part of the problem is due to the north south divide with most of the db boats down in the south and most of the vintage boats furthur north. The distances involved are the main reason why I havn't come to the last 2 Burtons. Travelling 2/3s the length of Britain on a Bank Holiday weekend is not fun.
My feeling is fine have a seperate vintage championship if you want but I don't really see the point of it. I will still go to Burton with a vintage boat when it is with in range because I am just going along for a bit of fun, I know I have no chance of winning anything (on the water) so I might as well sail round in a barge and relax (Although Mr. Jones wasn't very relaxing)
You can certainly count me in for a vintage event in the north of England but I certainly would not be prepared to travel as far for it as I would for Burton.
Hi Paul
I believe that the Class is stronger together than separately.
I think that a Vintage Championship should be part of a larger event such as the Inland Championship, which should be our best attended event of the year, but which in recent times has not been (despite being in the North of England last year). I would suggest finding a suitable large reservoir (in Derbyshire as Kevan suggested to you) and making it the venue for the Inland and Vintage Championships next year.
John
Nigel has given me clearance to post his email to me:
Hello Paul. As promised on the NTOA website, here are a few thoughts on vintage N12s. Some of my ideas are probably a bit extreme but are driven by the notion that the class has become excessively technology based. The last straw for me was the introduction of foiling rudders which have led to the outclassing of a large number of very good boats. In the past the class was always very careful not to allow anything which would have that effect but the urge to develop in the N12s seems to have overtaken one of the basic, long-held tenets. In this respect, the class compares unfavourably with the Merlin Rockets where quite elderly boats are still competitive and the rules have changed little.
We have to consider whether the vintage boats are a finite number, namely those currently in existence or is there a possibility of resurrecting the old form of construction with a simpler set of rules leading to a simpler boat with easier handling characteristics. If we set up a special championship for the vintage boats that exist, with the best will in the world those boats are not likely to last all that long and the notion might die away. Would it be too much to think that a new generation of vintage boats might arise, boats which might attract some of those who drift off to other classes on account of the more extreme characteristics of the latest boats? It looks as though the latest N12s (DCB and Paradigm) are coming in at around £11,000 which is a lot of money and associated complications for a 12ft. boat without a spinnaker or trapeze. The fact that only 3 new boats were built last year might be regarded as supporting evidence. Also, there are more and more older people in the class, as everywhere else, and the latest N12s take some handling and agility which we older types no longer have. I am not thinking of a one-design N12 and would favour leaving the opportunity there for different designers to get to work, but within a much tighter framework of rules. Has anyone any idea of the relative costs of plastic planks as against plywood planks?
If we are talking only about the existing stock of vintage boats, the biggest problem I see is the inability of most of us to repair and generally maintain them to a good standard and not everyone has garaging or similar facilities to carry out such work.
If I could get my old boat N1149 back, in its original condition, I would jump at the chance. As things are, the N12 has become a very specialised boat. As you know, it was originally intended to be a cheaper and simpler boat than its “big brother†the International 14.
I will be most interested in the views of others.
Sincerely, Nigel Fordyce.
I see lots of positive thoughts and suggestions in this debate so far. The main outcome and result I see will be to encourage more N12's onto the water...whether they are Vintage, AC or modern is irrelevant to me, we have alarge number of sailable boats across the country and if we can create an event where more people join in and where large numbers of sails with N on them can be seen it has to be good for the Class.
I personally didnt "read" this as an attempt to "split" the Class at all...just move the award of the Shotgun Trophy from the Burton Event to an Inland Event that is going to attract a larger Vintage turnout and is more geographically favourable. So I agree with Pauls ideas and John M's suggestion...and also with Angus...I would love to come to Burton Weeek(end), but with a south coast venue the distance and time involved in getting there makes it impractical for a weekend (even a long one), and then one is at risk (as this year) of the weather...in years gone by the longer week-long event made attendance a more practical proposition for those with a very long distances to travel and there was less risk of the weather holding the same patterns for an entire week...eg in 1990 at Llandudno we had gales for most of the week, but did manage 3 races eventually....but I fully understand that the weekend long event has been very succesful in boosting attendance.
Anyway...keep up the debate! And since I was already planning to come to Leigh and Lowton I was delighted with the proposal....
PS...Chadders..I was amused at your "Thoughts from up North.."...I always considered you to be in the deep south.....
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Posted for Martin
[size=x-small;" size="2"><font style="font-size: 12]Some interesting points here, and I guess an objective is to see vintage 12's been sailed for all to enjoy both today and in years to come.
I am always somewhat puzzled why Vintage boats enter BW, after all most boats are in excess of 40 years old, and when they are originally built I doubt the builders ever thought they would be used on the sea on big courses so far in the future, That does not take away though the spirit of the current owners to sail them and I say thanks for keeping that spirit alive. However that cannot continue for ever without some serious money spent on maintaining these olds boats, I am sure over time sea sailing like this have some impact on how these boats are held together. Even though I once had a vintage which I restored (at some expense) I personally would be hardbroken to find it disintegrate at the first big gust and wave.
I therefore think to move vintage boats inland, and to race a separate series/championship is a good idea, if only to preserve these boats for more years to come. I think most vintage owners have a newer AC or DB boat which would not preclude them continuing to race at BW.
I am not sure about the idea though of new boats being built to a vintage template ie plastic clinker. This does remove the whole ethos of vintage sailing ie to sail old boats against each other and revive the spirit of sailing these great craft. I think though as well the rules of development should be kept to the rules at the time they were built, so (and forgive me for saying this Paul), winged rudders on old boat was not something that would have been considered 40 years ago. That is just a personal view, from someone who has since sold his Vintage boat!!! Building new boats (in plastic!) with all the current development thinking seems to me not right, yes by all means build a new wooden clinker boat to a china doll design or whisper or starfish, but what would be stopping someone coming up with a design similar to a dcb! (Not even sure if that is technically possible?).
So lots to debate I look forward to see how the debate develops!
Martin
3458 ex 2306, 2458,2659,3355.
PS Tried add this to 12 site cannot add to message forum
Tom has already responded to the suggestion about running the Shotgun Trophy at Leigh & Lowton - quote from his email copiedto the vintage section/other interested parties:
[face=Calibri]Hi Paul,[/face]
[face=Calibri]In principle that is not a problem with me, although I love having the vintage boats and vintage sailors at the Champs. It is well worth reminding you that last time we went to Brixham we only sailed one race in more than ten knots, and the sail to the start is as short as any sea venue and the launching easy, plus whilst we were screeching/swimming around Hayling Bay there was no wind for at least one day in Torbay! [/face]
Fiona and I sailed N2531 in the 2009, 2010 and 2011 Burton Cup races, and from that perspective have to say I can't see why the age of the boats is the issue;
- in 2009 at Thorpe Bay in very strong winds we started but decided on the first beat the winds were too strong and cautiously retired ( and would probably have done the same in our Final Chapter)
- fantastic sail in the 2010 Burton at Weymouth, no problems
- another great sail at Brightlingsea in 2011, beat quite a few newer boats on the water
In the Firefly class plenty of 40 and 50 year old boats compete and actually win their champs at the same sort of venues we go to and in strong conditions; the age of the boats is demonstrably not an issue
We are all responsible yachtsmen; Isn't it up to seamanlike judgement by each helm before he decides to go afloat to be sure that he and his boat are up to the conditions?
A good selection of other vintage boats in the Burton has been a real incentive for us to enter, it would be a shame to lose the numbers.
I have collated the Vintage entry at Burton Week from the year 2000. Vintage boats have not attended BW in any numbers for many years until the revival in 2008/2009 onwards. The earlier years of Vintage activity was more focused on the boats themselves and less on racing them.
Looking at 2000 BW ( Torquay) there was only 1 vintage Entry with this exception no other boat below 3197
2001 - Porthpean - no Vintage boats lowest sail number 3007
2002 - Tenby - no vintage boats lowest sail number 3199
2003 - Looe - no Vintage boats lowest sail number 3111
2004 - Castle Cove Weymouth - no vintage boats lowest sail number 3000
2005 - Abersoch - no vintage boats lowest sail number 3154
2006 - Porthpean - 1 vintage boat 2134 lowest other sail number 3154
2007 - Brixham - no vintage boats lowest sail number 2993
2008 - Teignmouth - 3 vintage boats lowest other sail number 3162
2009 - Thorpe Bay - 7 vintage boats lowest other sail number 3171
2010 - Weymouth - 4 vintage boats lowest other sail number 2765
2011 - Brightlingsea 6 vintage boats lowest other sail number 3179
2012 - Hayling Island -4 vintage boats lowest other sail number 3003
In 2000- 2008 the Vintage boats all completed 80-100% of the races
Since 2009 they have only managed to complete an average of 42% of the races probably mainly due to the recent windy burtons we have had.
On a related point when talking to Paul I suggested that the Vintage event might not be combined or clashing with any other event in order to allow other Non Vintage Helms to compete in borrowed boats ( No slur intended to the age of the Vintage Helms!!)
Kevan
My first Burton was at Teignmouth in 2008, the last of the week-long events, when Seb and I sailed my vintage Mk12 N2255 'Purely Platonic' to a respectable 29th place and were briefly joined by Paul Turner in 'Starfish' and Richard White in 'Mr Jones' for the Burton Race itself, although unfortunately both retired for (and after!) an early bath on that occasion.
The conditions were pretty wet and breezy for much of the week but we had some thoroughly enjoyable sailing off the beach and no gear failures.
The next Burton was Thorpe Bay when Yvonne McInnes and I were the very first winners of the Shotgun Trophy - v high winds at the start of the Burton Cup race caused a lot of the fleet - both ancient and modern, to retire early and we had a very windy last day - but it was another hugely enjoyable event with more vintage boats in attendance.
Then and for the next two Burtons at Weymouth and Brightlingsea, the core of the vintage fleet consisted of the four boats sailed by Howard Chadwick, Brian Kitching, Paul Turner and myself with Angus, Vince, Ian Purkis and others joining us on occasion.
At Hayling Island this year there were just the 'core four' in attendance and after 'Just Lucky' broke her mast coming in over the Bar on Day 2, we were down to three.
Given the number of vintage boats still in circulation I am disappointed that it has not been possible to encourage more of them to join us at our National Championship event but I think there are perhaps good reasons for this:
1. Increasing age of helms - even the reduced duration four-day event can be a challenge if the conditions are on the rough side when a capsize can often lead to an early end to a race...that's if you've managed to reach the start-line. (Not so with the double-bottomed boats)
2. Increasing age of boats - there's a lot of time and effort involved in ensuring a 40/50/60 year old wooden boat can survive the rough conditions often experienced in recent Burton events and many helms are not keen to put their old boats through that sort of punishment.
3. Some vintage crews just don't like sailing on the sea.
4. Some vintage owners are relatively new to sailing (and to 12's) and often don't have the confidence in themselves, their crews or their boats to participate in a big fleet start in tidal conditions a mile or more from shore.
5. Some have neither the required time nor money to invest in a four-day Championship event.
I love sea sailing and will continue to attend the Burton but I can see that, despite a lot of encouragement, we have not managed to significantly increase Vintage fleet attendance in recent years.
For that reason I think the suggestion of an Inland Vintage Championship event in 2013 is a good one and a positive way to encourage more vintage 12 owners to get their boats on the water. Running it as a 'separate' event i.e. not in parallel with the Inlands, could also mean that we get other 12 sailors participating who would otherwise be in their DB boats - the likes of Graham and Zoe for example - or maybe even John and Katie in 'Cinzano'..how good would it be to see her back in the fleet). There are certainly boats available for helms and crews to borrow and I know that Paul Turner has had interest from a number of 'vintage helms' who would be keen to rekindle their contact with the 12 Fleet.
I definitely think it's worth giving it a go.
Tim Gatti.. N12 Vintage Rep
Correction - Burton Race 2008 - N2020 Starfish DID FINISH the race despite going for an early bath! Px 8)
Of course you did Paul - my mistake
I heard it was a very early bath!
It says guest cos I have nicked Sarah,s IPad and can't remember my login as my Pc and laptop remember it for me. Just to mention a couple of points more.
Yes Ed from where you are Yorkshire is the deep South.
No wonder Paul is upset as if he would fall in!
I agree with John about keeping the fleet together but still think the idea of an event that would allow our dual boat owners to come out and play in their vintage boats and non owners the time to borrow one and join us would be an excellent way of promoting the class as well as the fun to be had from our older craft. We can still come to Burton if we wish in any legal Twelve but just 4 regular supporters is not enough and we are very conscious of holding up proceedings when doing back to back racing.
Whilst numbers were low for last years inlands (in the North) it is perhaps worth mentioning that we had already had a bank holiday burton and bank holiday anniversary weekend both with good numbers.
I agree travel on a bank holiday is as bad as it gets especially when we are going even further off centre I guess it's a trade off against using up more holiday.
If we do go for a combined event please can it be in summer rather than late season. Howard C aka Chadders
[face=Calibri]Email from Chadders:[/face]
[face=Calibri]Hi my memory for what it's worth is that we did indeed have big numbers at Ripon as we do at Yorkshire Ouse and Hykeham was fairly good too. I think the significant factor is that YOSC, Ripon and Yeadon all have good numbers of vintage boats and we lend them out too to boost numbers. I agree we like to play in the warmer weather perhaps because we tuck our boats up in winter and have to wait until its warmer to get them varnished etc (or stuck back together).[/face]
[face=Calibri]On a quick count last year we had over 20 boats at Yeadon owned by 6 people and most were vintage.[/face]
Howard
Regarding boats waiting for vintage boats to finish in back to back races I believe that the Gill rules allow the race officer to finish boats a lap or laps early when the leading boat has finished at there discretion, this seems a sensible idea in back to back racing although I have never seen the discretion used!
I think most people who have a vintage boat also have a none vintage one which is always going to effect the numbers at events that are not purely vintage.
From Dave Peacock:
Hi Paul
My concern is that despite a disappointing championships, vintage should stay as a combined element of major N12 sailing events and not split off anymore.
The class is weak enough as it is and vintage is something valuable we have that others don't.
Tim's observations on vintage sailing at the Inlands:
Hi Paul
I did the Inlands at Northampton in the Pipedream once on one damp weekend in November some years ago - I remember my shouts of 'starboard' on the start line being ignored by the pushy drivers of several modern 12's keen to get a good (if illegal) start.
It was v late, dark and extremely cold by the time we got back to the boat park at Yeadon on the Sunday night.
To be honest, as a result I'm not that keen on going to distant events at that time of year - even if there are fireworks on offer!
Tim
Dave
I really don't think that Paul is suggesting that vintage boats should cease participation as a combined element of major N12 sailing events.
Despite already having had their own discrete Vintage Series for some years - 'The Witchcraft Bailer' with venues around the country, many vintage owners continue to support many other major N12 events, in particular the Gill series which now allocates prizes for Vintage boat participants - and long may that continue - in fact several of the Vintage fleet hope to be sailing with the DB's and AC's at Harwich later this month.
And judging by some of the responses to this thread, vintage boats will continue to compete at the Burton.
His main point is that despite huge enthusiasm in recent year from a small core of vintage sailors, myself included, numbers in attendance at the National Champs are minimal and that because of conditions and the age/susceptibility of the boats, these participants are often unable to go out racing in the company of the 'modern' fleet and some are feeling they are not really getting value for money, or enjoyment, from the event.
When we do venture out often the only time we are sailing in the company of the DB's and fast AC's is on the start-line and up the first beat - after that it's very much a case of two separate fleets on the water with the db's often finishing at least one lap ahead of the vintage boats.
In the circumstances, I think the suggestion of an Inland Vintage Championships - which essentially could be seen as a logical extension of the existing Vintage Series, is a good one and surely 'adds value' to the Vintage Fleet and the N12 Class. It is also one which may attract and encourage more vintage owners to participate in major N12 events in the future, not less.
It certainly won't stop me attending future Burton events as I love my sea-sailing - but given increasing travel and accommodation costs, I will probably enter late in the game when weather predictions for the long weekend are available.
Tim
I think there are a few trees having the wrong bark stripped off them here. I honestly thing that geography is the main factor why there are not more vintage boats entering Burton wee (short week). The sea is also a factor, but not the strength or fitness of the boats, I think vintage boats that are sailed regularly are stronger and less likely to breakages than AC boats, I also think there is a perseption by many people that if they are going to Butron they should take their fastest boat when they would possibly have more fun if they took their vintage boat and relaxed a bit more.
On Tim's commments about the Inlands I can fully understand where he's coming from but I have been to 4 inlands the closest being Scaling Dam which is only a three day husky ride and fully enjoyed all of them although the fireworks well out do the pub quiz any day.
I can also fully sympaphise with Tim having been taken out by a db boat myself I do think there is a very small minority of the db fleet who seem to think that normal rules of sailing don't apply with AC and vintage boats.
I think if Burton was held on a resivior in the North of England you may get more vintage boats than Dbs!
Graham when are you going to fit a spell checker to this thing.
Going off at a bit of a tangent as I understand it while Tim's Uffa King (is it?) will qualify as a vintage boat it won't as an AC boat. I don't see a problem with this, but what I have noticed over the past few yearsis an increasing number of people selling there DB boats to go back to AC boats again there is no problem with this but I can see a point arising where as the front of the class continues to dig its self into an increasingly expensive culdersac that a limited number of AC boats will become higly prized and priced eventually forcing people to look else where and I was wondering if there maybe a case for allowing new boats built to old desgins to qualify for Ac status.
I realise I have rather wandered off the thread here......
As a retired Vintage Twelve enthusiast I thought that I should maintain a low profile on this long and interesting discussion. Fundamentally I support Paul Turner's suggestion of an inland championship for Vintage Twelves in 2013 and hope it goes ahead.
However I would like to make a couple of points. In his first contribution and in some of the others, a suggestion is made of getting front-of-the-class, top sailors into Vintage boats. I have a sour memory of this. At one of our Witchcraft Bailer meetings at Earlswood Lakes about 10 years ago, a whizz-kid from the East Coast, borrowed a rather good boat from a hapless local and with his honed skills and deep knowledge of the rules, proceeded agressively to drive the ageing buoy racers in ancient boats the wrong side of marks, luffed them up the bank etc. The result was that a friendly meeting among enthusiasts was shattered.
The second point is about the spread of boat speed and helm experience among the present group of Vintage Twelve owners. Some boats which have been the subject of heroic restorations and have less skilled owner/sailors will still be sailing at these championships when Howard has gone home for tea. The only way to give these less speedy boat/owners something to go for is to have some sort of handicap system operating for some of the races. I have always admired the Derwent Reservoir S.C. handicap system but there are other ways of doing this. From past experiences I may be able to comment on this.
Ken Goddard, N.2300 Duodecimal
I like the idea of an event which would allow us to have some sort of a celebration of our history with as many Vintage boats there as possible. It appeals to us much more than Burton (which doesn't appeal at all). Himself says 'Wroxham'!! We won't be at L&L to take part in this year's event sadly - will still be on some island off the West Coast of Scotland.
An observation, the current Burton week format, with typically 1 hours races, is probably more attractive to the older end of the fleet (boats) than the previous full week format where quite a few of the races were up to 2 hours. However there are probably more vintage sailors who are up for sailing in land. We introduced the pursuit race concept for the "Grand pursuit race" at the inland summer event which I think this works pretty well. There is also the option of using personal handicaps (we apply a few at the summer event pursuit race). Could a similar system be used for a vintage champs - may be based on Burton week \\ Gill series results.
The key to a succesful even will be motivating people with the older boats all over the country. I believe there a quite a few at clubs on the Thames.
Myself and Zoe would be up for a vintage champs and don't mind an appropriate handicap.
Graham
I am extremely pleased to see such a vast amount of discussion on this subject. As you may guess, I was party to the early discussions at Hayling Island and especially the dinner time conversation during the Burton Dinner, about how we could recouperate from such a disappointing event for the Vintage sector. Did you know we had decided it was time for the WORLD SERIES INDOOR N12 Vintage EVENT? No? You should sit with me next time.!
Anyway, to get back to somewhat more serious ideas about Vintage N12, which I am passionate about. I have given a day or so to marshall my thoughts before replying and adding to the conversation. I am really pleased to see Kevan's facts presented so clearly - it has helped me gain assurance that I wasn't seeing things from a skewed perspective.
So my points are:
It has been harder sailing in the Vintage section in the last couple of years when so many events have been so windy - for example: Northampton N12 Regatta 2011, Aldeburgh 2011, Burton Week last 4 years. It is demoralising to turn up to such events and not sail, often after a long journey too - although don't get me wrong the social aspect is always second to none, but I want to sail too!!!
we do not see it as a split in the class, the Witchcraft Bailer series already exists for Vintage boats, there are prizes for the Vintage section in many events
a dedicated Vintage event will celebrate the uniqueness of our class by promoting the competitive sailing of some very old craft by enthusiasts, old hands and bright young upstarts - although don't forget, although your boat may be designated 'Vintage' you may still be trying to sail an apple against a pear - 'Vintage' does encompass (as you all know) some significant developments in design and performance which due to time have been surpassed [I'm working on all the specific facts here but you'll have to bear with me whilst I get it all correct - but trust me, I'm a midwife!!!!] and so despite the design advantages they all sail under the same "flag"
if the Burton is only viable (as I have heard) because the Vintage section turn up - what does that say about the Burton event? Burton Week must be a viable event without taking the Vintage section into account. If I were to get very cynical, I could suggest that if Hayling Island wasn't viable without the Vintage section, we have just subsidised your sailing for doing nothing ourselves - but then I did say I was only saying that by being very cynical.
yes, there have been a number of modifications to Vintage N12 such as carbon fibre booms, carbon fibres foils, glass fibres foils or even (heavens preserve us!) foiled rudders, and if one wanted to be really extreme - the materials used for sails, sheets, pulleys, shrouds and shackles are certainly not vintage!; but this is a development class, so anything goes as long as it is within the rules
we will still attend N12 events in Vintage boats - see us at Harwich this coming weekend
so where does that get me:
being wholeheartedly in support of a Vintage Championship, open to all and anyone who has or who can borrow a Vintage N12
in favour of a significant event in the 2013 calendar, which I am more than happy to organise
but not totally partisan to the Vintage section, an enthusiastic member of the N12 class,
so continued support of all N12 events whatever I happen to be crewing in - but let's face it I'd hardly be in a DCB if the helm wanted to win!!!!
oops there goes my sense of the humorous again
and if the idea of a WORLD SERIES INDOOR N12 Vintage EVENT (screened on BBC2)
doesn't grab you, let me tell you about the virtual N12 sailing game........
oops I diverge into the sublime again....
kind regards and see you at Harwich in an old bateau (combined helm/crew/boat age 158)
Christine
Trent Valley N12 class rep
I'm glad that CRU12's (combined age) maths is not good! Px ;D
Hello all,
I attach for your consideration an email that I have received from Mike Liggett. Mike had N.1777 until a few years ago until it went to John Meadowcroft and I corresponded with him on a number of occasions while I was Vintage Wing Rep.. I think some of his comments deserve further discussion.
Mike Liggett[/url]
To: Ken Goddard (mailto:goddards.peartreehouse@btinternet.com)
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 9:50 AM
Subject: Vintage debate
Greetings Ken,
Have just been reading the vintage debate on the N12 website. I agree with many of your comments. We have similar problems in the M/R vintage fleet (at least in the 12's you can limit vintage to clinker construction). With the Merlins it is age only related and we are now starting to see comparatively "modern" designs from the 80's now entering the fray (Smokers & NSM's)! However, it is not only the newer boats, it is old boats that are being "pimped" with carbon this and that and laminate Mylar sails, etc., not to mention agressive helms. At a Thames club last year I was asked to move out of the way by a faster boat even though he had no rights at this particular mark, not to mention the Professional "pumpers" who rock & roll the boats trhrough the fleet!
My fear is that the real vintage boats (probably sail numbers below 1000 for both M/R & N12) will just not sail as they are "not competitive" and this inevitably leads to no interest in restoring or maintaining these boats and they are lost forever. These are the boats I really fear for. We need events that people who really love these beautiful boats can sail, admire and race against like minded helms in perhaps the true amateur spirit of "its not the winning but just the taking part".
I append a handicap system that we use for the Merlin DeMay series which we are using at present. It gives all boats a base PY of 1000 and depending on various attributes this is increased or decreased. It is not ideal but what handicap system is!
I am not convinced on the viability of a Vintage Championships as again I feel it will be dominated by the newer (2000+ sail numbers) even if it is on an inland venue ( I could not sail M/R 235 with wooden mast, etc. on our comparatively sheltered lake at our recent Merlin vintage meeting due to strong winds).
Hope all is well with you. Please feel free to share any of my comments.
</font>
Best wishes,
</font>
Mike Liggett.
[face=Times New Roman]Hi all[/face]
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[face=Times New Roman]Thanks to Ken for passing this on. Mike says that we can share his comments, can we just paste this into the discussion perhaps? Any thoughts or do we need to ask him?[/face]
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[face=Times New Roman]Interesting system that the Merlins use for handicapping pimped vintage boats I seem to remember suggesting something similar for our vintage 12s a few years ago but got little support, is worth further investigation? It would of course mean that all events would need to be timed and the handicaps worked out before the results are known but on the + side may level the playing field a bit. I too like the Derwent system but to work properly we need the water to ourselves and that has proved impossible in recent years hence having to drop it from our series scoring this year.[/face]
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[face=Times New Roman]Kind regards[/face]
[face=Times New Roman]Howard[/face]
Greetings - I have tried to post the Merlin handicapping system, and failed, but it looks far too complicated to little old me! Not had formal clearance to run the Shotgun Trophy at L&L but meanwhile a few thoughts about making Witchcraft sailing better next year:
1. Re-instate the Derwent handicap system (it needs 3 events) and if that is not possible (as per this year) then we......
2. Consider giving the older/unpimped boats a minute or twos start over the modern/pimped yots.
3. We mutually agree to keep carbon off vintage boats, (except fittings and for booms for the preservation of elderly and thinning assorted crania).
Px:K)
I have been reading his thread with great interest as I have a vintage Holt 500 (672) and a classic Starfish (2383). I also own a classic Merlin Rocket (950) - although I am not sailing her this year as my crew is a bit small.
On the few occasions I can do external events I usually sail with the Classic and Vintage Racing Dinghy Association (CVRDA). (google it!)
They operate 3 classes, Vintage, Classic and Old, depending on the age and they use old money PY numbers based on those from 1965.
Qualifying boats have to be from a design that pre dates 1965, generally, although they accomodate certain lost classes of interest.
Owners are expected to declare the age and any modernisations to their boat so that their PY can be adjusted accordingly. This way, those boats that are being sailed 'as they were back in the day', are not penalised too much those that feel the need to modernise. this actually does encourage the use of wooden masts and tuffnol blocks, and steel centre plates, etc They even do a 'Cotton Sail challenge' for those boats old enough.
The very equipment from bygone days that makes some of the vintage and classic boats interesting - In fact at the last event I did I managed to sneak The Cotton Sail Challenge trophey from under the noses of a pair of vintage Merlin's in my Holt 500, Planet, which was nice.
The CVRDA often share venues with the vintage Merlin Rockets doing the deMay series.
I only draw this organisation to your attention as this might be another place to look when deciding on how you set up your future Vintage series.
Cheers
If we are going to ban carbon from vintage boats we need to give the whole aspect some careful thought for instance I have beefed up my repaired thwart with some carbon tape am I now out of class? Tim Gatti has carbon tape along his hog is he banned too and as for winged rudders?? Not anti Paul,s suggestion in principle far from it but it needs careful thought and we would need to clarify and beef up the definition of vintage perhaps?
This seems as good a time as any to circulate to the Vintage Wing some words around a definition for vintage 12's that Kevan and Michael worked up after a Committee discussion earlier in the year. Of course it takes no account of the so called 'pimping' that has recently entered this online debate, nor the use of more modern materials
It was intended to clarify what was and wasn't classed as a vintage and to encompass any new traditionally built 12's from old designs eg N3541
"Vintage National Twelve Definition - Any wooden National Twelve of clinker construction, built prior to 1971 and
wooden clinker boats built to designs issued prior to that year."
In other words it would stop someone building a Numinous in Clinker and claiming a Vintage tag, and help to
keep the authenticity of the Vintage section.
As agreed at the Committee meeting the final agreed definition would be published in the 2013 Booklet.
On the carbon front, I agree with Howard who has also used carbon to effect a repair on Triada, the matter needs careful thought before we agree to something like a blanket ban - for example, Brian K has dispensed with his carbon plate but now has an epoxy glass one that is equally stiff, lighter and possibly even more efficient.Nigel Waller won the Northampton 75th Anniversary Pursuit Race last year in an old vintage boat with a carbon plate and, of course, most of us now use carbon jib sticks and booms, and what of Shotgun's foiling rudder?
It's a bit of a minefield once you start isn't it.
Tim
I think we also have to be careful over the word clinker, I amy be wrong but I think refers tobuild where the planks are nailed to ribs, what we are now calling ribbys and the glued ply boats are not clinker built.
It may be a bit of an anathema to you guys but what about taking a bit of the emphasis off the winning and rewarding the guys down the fleet after all it only takes one person to win but it take quite a few guys to make that win worth while. I used to say when I was coming last all the time that I was supporting the whole N12 fleet because I was at the bottom of the sheet.
I know you will say we are there to race, but why are we sailing vintage boats if all we are interested in is winning.
Would it be possible to adapt the Derwent handicap to take out the pursuit element making it easier to sail along side other boats?
With regard to the word clinker, I believe it relates to overlapping planks and not specifically to ribs and rivets and that is certainly the context that we have all used within our class definition for many years.
Angus - on this occasion you are wrong.
'Clinker', as Howard says, does indeed refer to a method of building boats where the planks are overlapped. The area of over lap is called the 'land'.
Where boats are built with planks butted along their edges the construction method is called 'carvel built'
Before the days of reliable marine glues, clinker built boats were further strengthened with ribs or timbers rivetted or nailed in place through the lands.
Modern glues enabled the lands to be glued instead and the ribs dispensed with - hence 'glued clinker' construction.
So by our definition a vintage N12 can be either clinker built with ribs or with glued lands and no ribs.
Tim
I stand corrected.
Tim you make it sound if though I am only occasionaly wrong, far from the truth!
While I am sure Tim with his knowledge is correct I am sur I have read Can't remember where that glued ply planking is not clinker....The point I am trying to make is that as soon as you start making up hard and fast rules it becomes very difficult to ensure you end up with the right result.
"Vintage National Twelve Definition - Any wooden National Twelve of clinker construction, built prior to 1971 and wooden clinker boats built to designs issued prior to that year."
Perhaps to clarify Tim Gatti's new ribby we could consider changing the definition by deleting the "built prior to 1971"? would then read.....
"Vintage National Twelve Definition - Any wooden National Twelve of clinker construction, boats built to designs issued prior to 1971."
Keep it simple...... Px :K)
PS going to re-think the carbon issue......
When talking to some of the vintage Merlin fleet at the combined Vintage Merlin/CVRDA events, they can always find a raft of reasons why the fitting of Carbon spars to 1950's/60/70's Merlins is a good thing.
Slim Merlins do benefit from having lighter spars in windier conditions, etc.
But, last year, I did overhear one 'wag' make the following scathing criticism (not a CVRDA member), I am almost embarassed to repeat it, But it went something along the lines of:
"They buy a slim 50's Merlin Rocket, spend thousands of £ buying Mylar sails and Carbon spars, Harken fittings, etc, to try and buy thier way to the front of the Vintage fleet, as they can't cut it in the main fleet"
I would like to think that the freedoms experienced in the main fleet are just a bit difficult to let go of. Every one wants the best from their boat. But there will always be those that have and those that have not. But an arms race could easily be started so a great deal of thought needs to be given.
Are the same considerations, with regards to developement, in the main fleet relevent in the vintage fleet? Or should some sort of brake be applied to make modifying a vintage boat less desirable/worthwhile.
I am not trying to be contentious or pick an argument as an outsider. Just as an inerested party who might finally attend one of your events...
One other consideration is cost. Fortunately, unlike vintage cars, vintage boats are usually cheap. For many owners this might be an important factor when buying one. It also might be the only way ine can expect to own a boat of any particular class and it goes along with doing your own maintenance. Its an important consideration for me.
I need to keep an eye on the pennies. This is not just about what I spend on the boat directly - I hope to buy a new suite of sails for Sparkle in the near future(i.e. in the next year), but I have to pick my moment. But it also means when, how far and where I travel.
I tend to avoid clubs on the coast on weekends, as they rarely have enough parking, let alone camping facilities. You are often competing with general tourism for accomodation etc, let alone the 'run for the coast' that occurs every weekend on the countries roads. I also tend to avoid large professionally run clubs, as they too can be expensive.
I much prefer an inland club, preferably run by its members, with a bar in the evening, home made cake and some space to park the camper, or put up a tent. Magic! Makes for a cosy weekend away and enables me to stomach the cost of the petrol to get there.
Beware making things too difficult for club's to manage in terms of laying on racing events. We have run a number of 'Derwent Handicap' events at Ripon and I know just how important it is to get the right Race Officer team on board who can cope with changing start times for races, working out handicaps etc. Let's not take the fun out of racing these lovely old boats - for the helms and crews or for the clubs that give up their time and water to host events. Make it too difficult to do the latter and you will have series with nowhere to go.
Jennie
I recently sold a DB Chapter in favour of a 40 year old China Doll, and last did a Burton Week in 1989 (I think it was) at Whitstable where the oldest registered boat sailing was N-207... A back in the class in recent years and was at Annandale earlier this year.
I think we should do as much as we can to combine the activities of all sectors of the class.
As a Twelve fanatic I love to see the modern top end of the fleet as do my kids who crew for me - it inspires them and would be an experience they'd miss if us vintage yotties kept to ourselves and didn't turn up at events like BW... It's what the class is all about; and a Twelve is a Twelve...
The only thing keeping us away from BW this year was cost and weather forecast. It would be the same were it an inland event or any other one (we bailed out of Pitsford last year on account of the weather forecast).
A tank of petrol is nearly £100 these days so travelling any distance for a one-day open meeting is definitely out; and if the weather looks like we could miss a day or lose races then we just wouldn't go. It's so expensive travelling around the Uk these days if you don't get a decent spell of racing out of it we think twice about going. So whatever the event we decide last minute...
Plus my crew (the kids) are age 6 and 9 so they're not up to long days in heavy air regardless of whether the boat is. And they're the reason we went back to a China Doll - it suits our needs better as a family and when we go to Twelve events that's when we get our carbon 'fix'..!
We'd certainly support N12 events more if diary allowed it, if weather played ball and it all costed in... And mixing it up with modern boats and everything else in between is what the class is all about. Hosting an event inland or just for vintage boats wouldn't change that...
WW (N2620)
S0 3133 slips in under the designed before 1971 rule?
There have been some interesting threads brought up in the whole of this discussion, but getting back to Paul's initial thought of how to get more Vintage boats to sail in BW we have to first take a look at ourselves. We have only fairly recently in the history of the class come up with the idea of Vintage boats. When I sailed in my very first Burton (full) Week (1971) as it was then I think that I could safely say there would have been next to no what we are now calling Vintage boats. Kevan I am sure will be able to correct me on this, but if anyone were sailing a boat of some 40 years of age she would have had to have been one of the first couple of hundred boats or so registered. I know that Lionel Wilkinson used to always turn up in Gypsy but he was far from being the norm. Let us look at this situation with the glass half full and say we have over the length of time we have all been sailing these wonderful boats that construction methods have allowed us to sail boats of this age.
I do think that as a class we are stronger as a whole rather than spinning off the Vintage Wing completely and allowing it to become a class in its own right, but also understand why owners would want not to sail on the lumpy stuff in their precious boats. We all want the best from our boats no matter how old they are, but as others have already repairs have had to be made to some of the old girls. Who would say that we should not repair them with carbon? I bet that the repairs have been made in as an aesthetically pleasing way as possible without plastering the carbon on view and in your face.
Although I do not own a Vintage 12, I have thought about trying to get hold of one, but garage space precludes this at the minute. If I did own one I would probably also want to sail her with like minded people and spend as much time boat stroking and chatting about the one that got away as anyone else over a pint in the dinghy park after the sailing. Let us revel in the fact that we can still sail these old boats and just get out on the water with them and show other sailors where THEIR heritage has come from, as without the likes of the 12s, 14s and Merlins there would not be the proliferation of ideas and designs out there as there are now.
I realise that I have gone off thread with an amount of this, but I feel that I had to get it off my chest.
Sorry for the delay in responding.
With respect to future events, I am prepared to go with the flow/majority on this issue. I fully understand that the N12 Champs are generally held in the south, and that it is some distance for competitors like Angus to attend, his presence at the fancy dress will sadly be missed.
Looking forward, if the event is held inland, can I suggest it is Midland/Yorkshire area on a reasonably large lake i.e. Carsington, Blithfield, Draycote, Pitsford. Whilst I attend local events on rivers, I would prefer if the open was not held on a river or confined water.
The only other issue I have is that if there is a Solo event I may not attend, however I rarely attend opens in August, so an event in early August could be quite attractive (please miss Bass week otherwise I will have no crew!)
From a personal view I may still do the N12 Champs, I do enjoy the week.
See you all soon.
Best regards
Brian Kitching
Angus - in reply to your post I think that N3133 should be regarded as a vintage boat, as too, should Tim's N3541 ribby. Just my opinion - of which I take great notice!!!
I think there is a misconception that there is a move to split the vintage fleet off from mainstream N12s - this is absolutely NOT what I am proposing - I am looking to get MORE people sailing vintage N12s by having an extra OLD boats inland champs event in the middle of the country to make it more accessable to all.
I also want to keep vintage N12s cheap, simple and looking like vintage boats.
I will see if many more comments come in and then try to tie the various ends up by doing a summary of what appears to be a broad consensus on:
a) vintage sailing events and
b) definitions of what is a vintage boat (although this one will probably run for some time!)
In support of Pauls key point- We absolutely do not wish to split the class simply to add another event which will hopefully allow many more vintage boats to attend and compete for a key trophy. It could well run alongside a general event, our thinking was to not have a clash with say a Gill/National series event so that those with fast modern boats as well did not feel unable to sail vintage because they may be losing an opportunity for points in their modern boats. Those who enjoy the sea and Burton will still attend I am sure.
Having spent 2 years rebuilding N760, I am keen to get more use from the old boat. However I am not prepared to risk major damage, put an unnecessary burden on safety boats or delay other people's racing waiting for me. Unfortunately the weather forecast looks unfavourable for RHYC this weekend otherwise we would be getting ready to go....
The 75th anniversary last year was a memorable event despite the weather, we would certainly attend similar events in the future.
I have deliberately tried to restore the boat as it would have been built and resisted the temptation to modernise the rig in any way other than Dacron sails. Overall the boat as cost very little other than time ( far less than a second hand t foil rudder).
Good debate this one, did you say you were going to draw up some conclusions Paul and have you sold your winged rudder now?
OK peeps - time to wind this one up, but thank you to all who have contributed:
1a. World Indoor Vintage N12 Championships - contributors appear broadly in favour as long as clearly demonstrates NOT splitting the class up AND not designed as an alternative to vintage sailing at the Burton - I will run a separte thread on this setting out the proposal for 2013.
1b. The Shotgun Trophy will be sailed for at the L&L Summer Event 25/26 August.
2. What consistutes a vintage boat, what should be banned (if anything) should we have individual boat handicapping etc? I think that under Tim Gatti's chairmanship (as Vintage Wing chief honcho) a small team of experts and enthusiasts (Chadders, Ken G, the two Brians, Ed W etc? should get their heads together and come up with a suitable proposition to change/move forward - or leave it all as it is. But we do need to look at the Witchcraft Bailer series for 2013 as we will have had no Derwent meetings this year.
3. Heritage Boats - we have a history and heritage which most other classes don't have - and we need to protect and maintain that, because when it gone, it's gone! I will start another thread on that in a week or two.
Hope that I havent missed anything obvious!
Paul :K)
N1650/2020/2359/2399/2403/2487/2492/3157
And I have sold the t-foil off Shotgun! Feel a lot more relaxed now.