Author Topic: National 12 Rule changes debate  (Read 11948 times)

Nigel W

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Re: National 12 Rule changes debate
« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2014, 07:38:31 PM »
I (with Grahams help) have added some photos on the gallery of the rudder control system including Dares, dead cat bounce and paradigm systems
hopefully this link should take you there, http://www.national12.org/gallery/index.php?cat=10306

philipcosson

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Re: National 12 Rule changes debate
« Reply #46 on: September 11, 2014, 08:06:36 AM »
As a preivous (briefly) N12 sailor. I know that one of the reasons I stopped sailig was the loss of my regular crew. I toyed with the idea of modifying the boat for single handed sailing before giing it up. The reason I did not do this was because I would not have a recognised PY number and I would be out of class (deavaluing my boat).
Could it be possible to allow single handed sailing in class rules? this would allow those members of the assoociation who lose crews to apathy or university etc, to stay in the class. it would also probably provoke new designs specifically tailored to the single hander.
I'm sure there are good arguments against this - perhaps the RYA hae rules against it or something? but a light, technical, carbon 12 rigged for a single hander that could sail at the champs (with a special trophy), inland events, and have an official PY for club racing would surely be appealing to many?

Phil
Philip<br />ex N3367, ex N3253

mattb

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Re: National 12 Rule changes debate
« Reply #47 on: September 12, 2014, 01:28:30 PM »
for the record.
I have returned to the class because I have been able
1. to persuade my crew that sailing a boat that is too small and that hurts her is better than not sailing at all.
2. to buy a modern (non-foiling) up together boat for not very much money (i.e roughly the cost of a pastic admirals cup boat 5 or 7†years ago)
I'm not put off by the foiling rudders because I'm pretty certain that my new boat will accept a retro fit when I'm ready to get one.
Whilst I have an interest in the minutiea of the rules, actually it had absolutely no bearing on my decision to sail N12's again. I doubt whether any prospective purchaser will be influenced with the changes to the sail plan, kicker, daggerboards or rudder. However taking a wider view it is reasonable to argue that developments devalue out-of-date boats, which is a good thing if you want to sail N12's but can't afford the latest.
Clearly if you want to win then its going to be expensive in N12's but I'd suggest winning in any sailing class needs a substantial investment of money and time. I'm sure that a trickle of new†baots will in turn†increase and provide a reservoir of decent foiling second hand boats in time.†But I don't really think the number of new boat builds is a great metric for the health of a class. I had a choice of suitable boats on the 2nd hand list that met my needs. It's really the number of boats regularly sailing isn't it? So to that end I will put forward only one suggestion ..... and I'm sure it will be shot to pieces. Introduce a handicap adjusted cup to the gull series †and national's. Then all the different 'classifications' of N12's can fight for the one cup.
And actually if we want to win back the sailors who have gone elsewhere we need to shout loadly what is obvious to us all - that N12s' are a wonderful boat†to sail.
Matt

STU W

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Re: National 12 Rule changes debate
« Reply #48 on: September 12, 2014, 01:37:45 PM »
Having just bought 3246 I think this is a great idea and would make me more likely to attend opens. At least I would know I had a chance of winning something IF my sailing was good enough.
but not for champs, Inlands etc. not sure of gull series either but for area trophys etc great idea
12's are for life not just for christmas.

Trick Cyclist

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Re: National 12 Rule changes debate
« Reply #49 on: September 13, 2014, 01:27:15 PM »
The class does recognise all the variuos ages of 12 at most opens, and certainly the gul series. Gul sponsorship this year has been incredibly generous with the first AC, Db, and foilers walking away with nye on £100 in gul vouchers. The recent survey asked exactly that question on whether to hold handicap events so if you haven't answered it, now is your chance to vote to request the change. We go to different events in different 12s from DB to vintage and l have to say that we have had more success sailing the vintage than the foolish! Last year at ranelagh we were 2nd on the water and at henley we had a great time tussling with a foiled paradigm and only lost out on the final leg when the wind increased, at the event was a complete mix of all types of 12, DB, AC, vintage and foiled.

Martin

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Re: National 12 Rule changes debate
« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2014, 07:40:15 PM »
You could do both. Give an overall result first pass the post and then extract the handicap results and award prizes for both.
On a separate note does the number of 12s currently for sale on Apollo Duck †given the size of the class give cause for concern?

3513SL

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Re: National 12 Rule changes debate
« Reply #51 on: September 14, 2014, 10:08:38 PM »
Quote from: 189
†the number of 12s currently for sale on Apollo Duck †given the size of the class give cause for concern?

At lot more 12s for sale than Larks / Fireflies
As a new crew, I'd buy the right boat if I could find a regular crew... the boats are certainly attractive in what they do and the class is friendly.
N12 - 3198, 3513, 3551

Interested Party

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Re: National 12 Rule changes debate
« Reply #52 on: September 15, 2014, 10:17:32 AM »
Interesting to note that a very strong portion of them are what I would regard as later (No's above 3100) designs, followed by a handful of late 4 plankers.† Only a couple of vintage boats in there.
Some of them look excellent value, if you are a whippet with an even lighter†junior crew.
Has the class designed itself into a corner over the last 30 years?† Shallow cockpit, complexity, low boom and little room for the crew up front.
Comment from an older, slightly fat, clinker/early 4 planker†owner.
But more to the point is the maintenance, if I had a penny for everyone at my club†who has 'gone to plastic' for an easier life, I would be a rich man...Or at least I could buy myself a beer.
Still, it is the end of the season.
Cheers
Steve Hawkins <br />N12 - Planet 672 -1948 (Holt modified 500 series)<br />N12 - Spider 2523 - 1971 (Spider) <br />N12 - Sparkle 2383 - 1967 (Starfish)

alk

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Re: National 12 Rule changes debate
« Reply #53 on: September 16, 2014, 01:13:52 PM »
Quote from: 49
As a preivous (briefly) N12 sailor. I know that one of the reasons I stopped sailig was the loss of my regular crew. I toyed with the idea of modifying the boat for single handed sailing before giing it up. The reason I did not do this was because I would not have a recognised PY number and I would be out of class (deavaluing my boat).†
Phil

As someone also unable to find a crew, this would make N12's more accessible for me also.

STU W

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Re: National 12 Rule changes debate
« Reply #54 on: September 16, 2014, 02:54:31 PM »
I do find it odd, would you buy a Merlin Rocket and then expect to be provided with a single handed handicap for what is a two man boat.
Also having looked through the rules I can see nothing about the number of crew required so I guess the handicap has to be the same otherwise what is to stop people sailing opens, champs etc and sailing double handed in strong winds on one handicap and single handed in light winds on a more favourable handicap. Perhaps at club level handicaps could be adjusted. I know at Earlswood Lakes S.C we did this many years ago
12's are for life not just for christmas.

edwillett

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Re: National 12 Rule changes debate
« Reply #55 on: September 16, 2014, 04:09:21 PM »
I quite often sail my 12 singlehanded if the conditions allow and i face a lack of crew. So does one of my Club compatriots. Being on the large size for 12 helms it is actually a benefit and we go faster....we sail off the current handicap for our Crusader's...1104. The Club is quite happy for us to be sailing the boats singlehanded..unlike some i Know...they are just happy to have boats on the water. The 12 is perfectly easy to sail singlehanded up to a F3. If you cast your mind back to 1948...the Olympic singlehander class was...The Firefly!

alk

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Re: National 12 Rule changes debate
« Reply #56 on: September 16, 2014, 04:21:38 PM »
Quote from: 29
I do find it odd, would you buy a Merlin Rocket and then expect to be provided with a single handed handicap for what is a two man boat.

I agree, it's not that I'm wishing to complain that the National 12 is too restrictive in it's intended crew tally. It's more along the lines of I'm in a position where single handed sailing is a more viable option but there isn't a class of boat I'd rather sail more than a 12. A lot of smaller clubs don't have an issue with it, but Phil's suggestions sounded exciting on a wider scale.

mutt (Guest)

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Re: National 12 Rule changes debate
« Reply #57 on: September 17, 2014, 01:08:27 PM »
Quote from: 29
Also having looked through the rules I can see nothing about the number of crew required

perhaps single handed is the way forward .... it wouldn't take much to make most national 12's controllable within the helms reach. Add a trapeze (only allowed to use when single handed of course) and the righting moment is about where it would be for two. A sinple self tacker within the current rules and jobs-a-good-un.
Can't think of a simpler retro fit that could do so much for getting boats out on the water.
Would also promote a tendency towards simpler rigging which can only be a good thing to my mind.

Interested Party

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Re: National 12 Rule changes debate
« Reply #58 on: September 17, 2014, 01:29:51 PM »
Both my classics have come rigged for single handing. Both Sparkle and Spider.† No idea if they were raced like that, but I am often out in light conditions on my own.
Steve Hawkins <br />N12 - Planet 672 -1948 (Holt modified 500 series)<br />N12 - Spider 2523 - 1971 (Spider) <br />N12 - Sparkle 2383 - 1967 (Starfish)

STU W

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Re: National 12 Rule changes debate
« Reply #59 on: September 17, 2014, 06:06:20 PM »
I think the idea f sailing single handed within the existing rules is one thing but changing the rules to accommodate this is another thing completely and goes against the wishes of the founding fathers of the class..who set out to promote a two man boat.
Stuart
12's are for life not just for christmas.

 

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