National 12

Having been following the earlier thread regarding the future of the 12 and having already started discussion about what we could do to make the class more attractive to potential new owners in our last committee meeting, we agreed to ask 12 owners and interested parties alike what changes we could make to the rules to make the class more attractive and widen its appeal.
 
With that in mind I would like to encourage as many people as possible  to post ideas and thoughts which they would like included in the debate on this thread, bearing in mind the current National 12 Class Rules (http://www.national12.org/downloads/n12_class_rules.pdf). What do you think would make the class more appealing to potential owners and existing owners alike?  Different sail plan/ measurement rules; redefine hull measurement rules/weight etc?
Whilst I understand the frustration of looking back on the 'glory years' of 12 development and sailing, the reality is that few people have time to build themselves in the modern world and so I think it is important as a development class that we look for ways to move forward not backwards. Also bear in mind we are in a competitive and shrinking market.
 
Should be pointed out that there is currently a plywood interpretation  of a DCB currently in build not a million miles away from where I sail.
 
For info, we are currently addressing the issue of a recommended handicap for non foiling DB boats.
 
Jeremy Carey
Chairman NTOA

Glad my previous post was of so e use in what it set out to do. I don't have any specific ideas how things could be moved forwards which is why my previous post. Somehow I feel the class needs to address the perception it has become over complex and very difficult to sail. Ideas I have are in no particular order
reduce width of wings or ban them
allow daggerboards (I think wings are as much an issue inland and many classes sail inland with daggerboards
modernise sail plan, allow more experimentation with fully battered..semi batterned rig
limitation of exotic materials in hull construction
limit areas where exotic materials can be used
hope this at least encourages discussion

I think most potential new N12 sailors will join via 2nd hand boat route and will not consider too greatly what the rules say. In my experience most casual onlookers find my boat attractive but clearly not suited to their personal needs. The usual comments are about its stability, lack of room, complexity etc.
I do not believe that the price of second hand boats is  a barrier and right now there is loads of choice. 
Perhaps the rules do need changing so that the focus of development is channeled to optimizing new boats for the real world conditions we sail in week in week out and not Burton Week.
I have reluctantly put my boat on the market as it no longer meets our needs. After 20 years of 12 sailing it was not a decision took lightly but on Monday we collect a boat with blue sails and join a. growing fleet at our Club.
I would be tempted back if there was a boat available that carried the weight of normal sized people, had a bit more headroom, good all rounder particularly in very light winds, perhaps a deeper cockpit , but not odd looking like Paradigm, keep it self draining, a top batten that does no stick, less string to faff with and doesn't cost an arm and a leg.
Apologies if this is a bit random but time is short and I wanted to get something written to keep the debate going..

I have recently returned to 12's after a very short affair with an Ent as I saw it as more stable, simple to rig and great for taking more than 1 child in. However I got rid of it as one man and a child find it very hard to man handle on land which put me of using her..
I agree second hand boats are not expensive  but appear complicated and only do one job which is race as a 2 person crew who weigh about 19st.
whilst I'm 14st and my 7 Yr old is already a brute at  5.5 st  I fear our time together in a 12 is limited. So rather than looking at wings and trim tabs and fancy materials  I would favour a simple to rig and use self draining  boat that carries proper persons weight .(I do like pies and beer)
trouble is it sounds like an Enterprisen

I should clarify why I feel our 12 no longer meets our needs.  My wife who crews for me finds having to move around the boat quickly, particularly when the boat gets unexpectedly headed in a blow, difficult. (Low boom, high thwart, kicking strap etc) It is worse when wearing winter sailing gear. In light winds she is sat up the front on the floor and if the roll tacking is too enthusiastic she ends up sat in a puddle of water despite the boat being self draining. To put it frankly she is not enjoying her sailing in the boat added, to which we have been marginalized by the PY changes.  
I think going back to an older twelve would be a retrograde step and so we agreed a fresh start would be best. We tried an Enterprise  last year and really enjoyed racing together in it . Finally the right boat has come along and we are both feeling positive about sailing again.
I suspect the issues we have with the twelve are shared with others and if they could be addressed and applied to not so new  boats then I think the class will move forward again.

Having just bought my first 12 (N3124) and coming from a low-rider international moth,

I think we need to make the boat more comfortable to crew, and generally update the rules, but I also think it is important not to ban anything currently allowed

1. allow dagger boards, having no centre board case would make more room in the boat so should be easier to crew although downwind with the dagger board most of the way up it might be a bit tricky, but if you allow them and their rubbish you've not lost anything as no one will use them
2. more sail area, I would reduce the rules to a max luff length(set this so current masts can be used) and max area(say 12 or 13m^2), at the moment we have the width of a RS400 with the less sail area than a RS200, allowing fully battened mains and jibs with a square top mains would modernise the look of the boat and make a big speed difference to us river sailors and also get both crew sat on the side sooner which is much more comfortable
3. allow none standard kickers, as far as I can tell gnavs are allowed although I'm not sure if anyone has one, but temple vangs are banned by the boom dimension rules, they would give the crew much more room to work
4. mast CG correctors seems a bit pointless when carbon masts are not much more expensive than alloy ones, keep the same overall sailing weight but losing the mast correctors would reduce the height of the GC of the boat and I think would make a noticeable difference to the stability and ease of righting from a capsize
5. winged rudders, I think with extra sail area winged rudders would make a larger difference than they do now, they could make the boats much easier to handle downwind especially in big chop, I would allow a gantry system similar to I14's as I think this would make them easier to fit to older boats 
 
Peter

Back in the eighties when I sailed a Cherub,  I recall there was a move from deck stepped masts to hog stepped.  Rather than buying longer masts the boats were fitted with spigots ( effectively a mast extension at the foot) If it was thought that a taller rig might be the way forward to give more boom height in the cockpit, then this might be cheap retro fit for older boats.

an idea to encorage home building,
i'd like to think of myself as compitant with the expox and carbon/fiberglass, the odd repear here and there or the extra bracket. for me by far the most daunting part of home building would be geting the design right. you could spend mounths in the shed only to find your new boat is slow. there are plenty of guides and tutorials on how to build in wood or carbon on this sight, the cherub page has lots of usefull info too. but there is no info on what to build. i segest a "open sorce" rule where the plans or nowadays the CAD files of any new boat should be published under a none comertial licence. this would allow a home builder to go straigt from the shed to the front of the fleet.
a few other clases also have a set of class moulds that can be borrowed/hired

Most of the designers active in the class are pretty open with their designs, and will probably give advice for home building. The pics above are an obvious example. 
I must admit I was against T foil rudders when they became vogue, and wanted to see greater sail area, and partially battened mains.
The T foils I think have allowed greater weight to be carried, most of us are slower then the front guys mainly due to lack of practice and fitness. They also make the boats much easier to sail. I am much happier in a blow now than I was in my Foolish, or Baggy. Does this meen we can have more saill area? I doubt it, as it would certainly stop me taking more junior or novice crews out. There may be a good argument to go partialy battened and square topped, but its a hard one.
As for T foils inland, I sail inland, and first tried one on the river thames, they were fine, and quick. Once you get used to transporting them, they are not much hassle at all. 
We actually, like before the introduction of the DCB's and the Merlins are now benefit from a period of stability. There has to be enough competative boats to make people feel good, even though there are only really ever 5-10 competative crews.
I would like ot see the end of some more odd rules, like the lead strapped to masts. The boom and jib stick and redder should be weighed in the boat as well. 
 
Andy

Sorry Andy have to disagree. The class is not entering a period of stability, it's entering a period of stagnation. Stability =the same design being dominant for a long time and new boats being built. One boat, two or even three boats being built a year does not reflect stability at all. It reflects decline. Sad to see nobody is even prepared to invest in another hijack. Is the cost just Too much for people to take anything but the safest option. Perhaps cost is one of the biggest factors we face. Problem is the huge gap between new costs and secondhand prices. We need more DCBs etc on the secondhand market cheaper than new. Problem for non foiling DB boats is all their equity has gone so they can no longer upgrade. Most people selling at the moment are moving out of the class. I really think the class has to look at ways of reducing costs..either of hulls( many people used to fit out their own boats), masts, foils so people do not have to fork out what is equivalent to a down payment on a house. The hardware now needed to control the rigs is also very complex and expensive compared to yesterday year. 
Please guys don't react as if I am having a go. But like a good Doctor we need to ask what the symptoms are if we are to produce a reasonable diagnosis because I for one know this is not a terminal illness. Perhaps an amputation here or ther is what is needed but perhaps it's just a small tweek

Actually, though I do admit to a typo, we are in agreement. The time of stability I was refering to was prior to the DCB. We had almoost 80 boats at the Nationals the when the first DCB came.
What we need now is a period of stability, and I agree we need more boats. Boats are expensive. We are also coming out of a recesion. The real question is how do we promote class building. Meds and co almost got there with the Paradigm, with quite a few boats being built. The DCB kind of spoilt it. 
Can we build it cheaper? The cost difference between carbon and non carbon when i ordered mine was i think only 400 quid, so that isnt really the issue.
The ICONists seem to be building some momentum with the try an ICON day, do we need to do the same?
Andy

I think we also need to keep people in the class, it seems a lot of top flight helms borrow or buy a twelve and sail it for a year or two and then disappear. How can we keep them?
what do the association offer outside of Burton Week. I have often thought all my money goes into Burton Week, paying for prizes, venues etc. what does club sailing get from funds, what do individual members get.
used to do Burton Week in the 80 s early 90s but spent the best part of 3 decades club sailing, so where does all my money go. I, along with I believe a few others, felt more engaged with a hard copy class newsletter
anything to rebuild up club fleets must be a big plus and even more importantly get youth sailors like Nick into the class rather than the RYAN where you will all be Olympic champions. Gone are the days where Olympic sailors came from twelves, 14s and Merlin's but that happened because we engaged kids at the first possible opportunity.

I would advocate a general simplification of the rules, we seem to have quite a few rules which have no effect on performance (sheerline rule and the fore triangle height rule for example) there are also illogical rules for example, rotating masts are banned but canting masts allowed.
I agree with Andy on the weight measurement, we should include the rudder, boom, jib stick and sheets.
On the sail plan, I'm in 2 minds, part of me thinks we should simply have a max sail area (no increase on current) and leave the shape free.
I think we need to keep a minimum mast weight removing this rule would allow the cost of a mast to spiral upwards. The old argument that carbon masts will become cheaper than aluminium has so-far been proved wrong; a carbon mast is currently 2 to 3 times the price of aluminium.
One more thought, you don’t have to change class rules to influence boat development; a change of format at events can influence boat design and setup. Short course racing would bias development towards boats that can turn corners easily while distance racing would favour straight line speed.
 
Having said all that, I think the best way to increase interest in the 12 is to have more boats at events and show we can have fun in all sections of the fleet. In my view the first step to achieve this would be to drastically reduce the number of event to avoid diluting the fleet most classes have less than a dozen events per year.
 
finally in response to previous posts:
- designers in the class are very open with their designs and advice. I guess they don’t publish their designs to help protect their ideas. After all, they have to make a living. I think the best way to encourage home building is to have moulds available.
- headroom can easily be increased by raising the boom on the mast
- I think  it is possible to make a temple vang within the current rules. The rule only says that the boom must be capable of passing through a 102mm circle, it doesn’t specify the axis of the circle so it can be twisted round the 90degree angle of the strut. Other option is the system used on scorpions. Gnavs do horrible things to mast bend.

My reading of the rules is that a L shape boom would be prohibited as a perminant bend of mast or boom (9.5)
not realy sure though
Peter

I read the previous thread with great interest.  As already alluded to, I prefer the simpler older clinker or single skin designs, as a 'classic nut'.  I make no apologies for that.  And as a result some might think that I have little to add to this thread. But as one thread dies another starts....
My preference is for a simple boat with some cockpit depth and a higher boom, better weight carrying ability and room in the front for the crew, tin rig, simple controls, no more than sheets, kicker, outhaul and down haul, to be sailed predominantly inland, but able to cope in larger waters. I do not want anything hard chined - nothing pretty about corners.   That puts me back in the 60s and early 70s. 
So if £10,000 were to fall into my lap to spend on a new boat, I would actually be looking for a 'new classic'.  Not quite 'Gruffalo', a much newer design (!!!????).  But we are still talking either one of the last glued clinkers or perhaps a 4 planker, if not too shallow hull. I am sure a 4 planker would be cheaper to have built than a clinker.  But I am dreaming....
Anyone likely to be making a 'new classic' and to what design?   Perhaps a different thread might be in order - sorry...

I see that some Grad sailors (is this a class we can learn anything from?) have adopted Gnavs presumably to free up cockpit space. Their latest mainsail shape looks interesting too.

Steve Hawkins makes an intersting point about going back to the 60's and 70's. It was a 'golden age' of Twelve building and some really pretty boats were built . Ok a lot tof these have goone to the great dinghy park in the sky but...........................

There are a number of boats that are still around, to look at they have definately lost their gloss, the decks are shot, foils have had a hard life but the hulls are still in good condition. To save the expense of making new frames etc, surely the way forward should be to aquire a golden oldie for a very cheap price on Ebay or the like and breath new life into it.

The main problem with boats from the 60's and 70's appears to be that the Aerolite used to glue the decks on has failed; for some reason this doesn't happen with a hull - possibly because the glue gets into the grain better  than it can with a sheet of decking? Spud, Kevin and I have debated this one at length!

And to prove that I practice what I preach, I bought Dinsdale for £150 on Ebay, let the boat dry out (for far too long!) and in 4 weeks an ugly duckling has become a swan. Fitting out will follow period practice of kicker, cunningham and outhaul. One or two more modern bits of thinking will also be put on - splitend main for example, but KISS is definately the motto.

And amazingly after 42 years the boat now weights less than when it was originally built . I think that it is also possibly stiffer and ready for the next 42 years.
 
 

John she looks even more beautiful than she did in 1986 when I crewed in her for Sue Pelling at Exmouth. Always was a beaut but she looks better than new

John she looks amazing, I hope you are planning to bring her to 4 plank events to show her off ;)

The question of Aerolite glued decks giving trouble while the hulls do not may well be due to the fact that Dick Wyche used Aerodux on his hulls. Aerodux has a different formulation to aerolite and is much longer lasting in damp conditions. The Mosquito aircraft whose glued mainspars failed in India used aerolite. When Aerodux was used the mainspars did not fail.

I've been reading this and the 'other' thread over the last few weeks and there's some really interesting discussion going on.  My views on what should or shouldnt be done to save the class seem to change on weekly basis at the moment.  Certainly a few weeks back I was probably thinking baning foiling rudders was the way forward. But on reflection I am really not sure an outright ban would be the right thing to do. 
Equally I'm not convinced that any significant rule changes are the answer either.  All of us could make a list of things that would make a fast Twelve and the list would probably vary from reducing weight to making the sails bigger or even adding a kite. There's probably countless tweaks in between those extremes that could all outclass what exists today. 
I remember a simplification of the rules being discussed a while back possibly at the 1999 nationals but the problem was that most of the rules serve to make a Twelve a Twelve.  All the subtle things like Rise of Floor and the height /angle the jib luff make the boat what it is.  It does appear (my perception) that the class has focused its attention more on Burton Week(end) and to an extent forgotten grass roots sailing. From the relative outside, I can't see how foiling rudders would really work at somewhere like Earlswood or Twickenham.  
So here's my collection of thoughts. Some I wouldn't do even though I'd still like to try a Twelve with them. 
Sail Plan
In the other thread, STU W said that I was advocating changing sail plans about 10 years ago (thanks for the reminder STU i think it was actually 13 years :) ).  To an extent I do still think that would be an interesting development but it would change the boat over time and not necessarily make it more fun, simpler or any better at carrying weight.  I think at the time I thought that it would be better to measure 'real' sail area rather than how its done currently. That, combined with a tweak to the jib height rule, might mean that a bigger jib could be used than is standard now.  My memory of this could be wrong but I suspect I've read in High Performance sailing this would potentially make the rig more powerful /efficient / go faster.  I think at the time there was also a bit of discussion about over rotating masts too but i'm not going there tonight. 
Do all the double bottom boats that are for sale at the moment need someone to suggest moving the mast back by 10-15cm and playing with sail plan.. Probably not?
Increasing sail size 
Yes that would make the boats faster I'm not convinced more sail is the way to make heavier crews more competitive. My own experience of sailing a Big Issue (it had a heart on the sail) with 12.5m battened sails (3.5ish metre jib) was that the boat would become MUCH more lively off wind especially close reaching. With enough righting moment i.e. a trapeze, yes you can certainly plane upwind... Brilliant fun but probably not at Ely and definately not with a 10 year old in the front.  The problem with (crew) weight in any 12 foot boat is that physics is too difficult to avoid and even when you increase sail area, you still have a point where heavy people loose out to light people. When it's blowing, light people might struggle against the power of the heavier crews, or they might just go the same speed because of the Twelves amazingly controllable rigs.  Bigger rigs would probably create that binary performance problem that other 12 foot classes have. But the N12s have always been LOVELY in no wind - maybe its just me.   
Battened Sails
I am a fan they are fantastic.  They last ages, they set beautifully but when they are as big as we have on a Twelve they don't give you much thinking time. They keep driving when you don't want and then there's those 5 battens to pop rather than just the 1 when it's light.  That said those tricky little soslows don't seem to struggle with that issue so maybe its just me.  I'm not sure that a battened main would be much fun for parents sailing with their offspring for those reasons. 

Square Tops 
How very trendy. I've not got anywhere near enough experience to comment but im sure they have advantages. Are there any square tops without lots of full battens underneath? My current fear with this sort of development is that its a bit like sticking a assymetric on a wayfarer. It just looks daft (sorry Wayfarers). 
Daggerboards 
I've never understood why we banned them and actually they are something that could be easily retrofitted to any existing boat even Gypsy if we were being really reckless.  Allowing huge wings on the rudder but banning daggerboards because they might hit the bottom in restricted water seems a bit strange in my eyes. But that door does now seem locked and I think someone chucked away the key in 2002.. 
Mast Weight 
Correct me if I'm wrong on this but I thought the mast weight allowed for an average carbon mast and that a weight limit existed for the reasons Tom W said on the last page. i.e. to stop super expensive high mod carbon rigs having an advantage?  I'd probably vote to keep some sort of limit just because anything to keep costs in control seems sensible. 
Hull Weight /All up weight 
We've been building high tech hulls and filling them with lead for years. Certainly the fear that light boats would fall apart seems to be a myth (as we all knew it was at the time). I don't know what the ratio of light boats to those that a closer to the limit is, but it could be worth a discussion. It would make boats faster but it would make it even more difficult for the home wood workers.  That said Im pretty certain that the weight of a 12 is not something that puts people off? There's an argument that says that you need a heavy trolley to stop your boat blowing over too. The net effect is only good for the physio's out there. 
Rudders 
I think there's probably a discussion to be had (at least publically) about the size of the foils. I know my old mate Smilie favours the Darwinian approach but it could be a way of reeling the DCBs back in a bit if the class as a whole felt that was desirable? 
My overall conclusion. 
I've sailed boats that have made major rule changes with the aim of making the boat appeal more to the 'growing' UK market. It has made that class more popular but it is a completely different sailing experience now to the one that many of us enjoyed. There is a danger in development classes that we tend to look at rule changes as a the cure to all ills. But with the benefit of a few more grey hairs, I think what makes classes work well, is a great Association and sailors that are passionate and enthused.  The boat isn't the only issue.  You only have to look at boats like the Streaker (no offence) to realise that. And make no mistake the NTOA was/is a truely great association.. 
As I see it at the moment the Twelves are in a bit of a (deep) lull but - there's an opportunity to celebrate the fact that you can buy a seriously good boat for a couple of grand that will be great fun to sail alongside the Classics, Four Plankers, etc etc.  But we think carefully about alienating those people by doing anything radical... 
A don't to do something radical message coming from someone that put 15.5m of white sail, twin wires and a big bin bag on a Big Issue may seem a little strange but hey... Had to grow up at some point I guess. 
 
Ben 
N3252 (Silently sitting in my garage waiting for some attention).

P.s. John your boat looks really lovely!

Thanks Ben et Al.
 
I think it goes to show how well Rowsell's were building the boats back in the '70's.
 
And Smilie, I think that there are 3 planks too many to the 4 plank series! Dinsdale is a genuine Rowsell 7 plank Doll. I believe from what Spud has told me is that Spud / Brian used the same frames for all their Dolls including China Doll herself - with the obvious changes to the first 3 feet of course. No doubt Phil could confirm this?
 
But to get back to the rules debate, I agree with Ben in that we should look at the origins of the class, however how many of the small 'puddle' & river clubs really still exist? I fear that the move to faster manufacturer one designs has to an extent meant that people have migrated to larger puddles?

John, not sure this is the case, these clubs still exist it's just the 12 fleets are no longer the backbone of club racing. Earlswood Lakes which Ben mentioned early is still thriving but instead of a fleet of around 15 twelves of which around 8 were regular sailors there is now 1 twelve in a large handicap fleet. I think as a club, where as in the past, established fleets were encouraged (at earlswood it was 12s, Merlin's, enterprises and Lasers) and stuck to through thick or thin, clubs find it easier to let anybody sail whatever rather than struggle to promote classes which are perceived as difficult to sail. We, as a class, need to rebuild these club fleets through more promotion and provide the type of boat which suits these small venues but can also be enjoyable at championship level. Not provide a boat to win Burton Week when most owners either have absolutely no interest in winning B/W or do not have the ability. If we get people sailing 12s at ground floor level surely this will encourage others to "give it a go".

Again there are some really good and constructive points being raised in this thread. Before I comment further why dont we remind ourselves of what the National 12 is - "The National 12 is a fantastic two person two sail racing dinghy which is perfect for families, young teams and couples who enjoy racing. With a sail area of ~10.4m and a light hull they are ideal for inland sailing on rivers, lakes & reservoirs and also great fun on the sea". If we consider any changes then it must be with this in mind, surely? I have a fairly jaundiced view of radical changes; ie bigger rigs, more sail area, fully battened sails, spinnakers etc...there are plenty of classes that already offer all of these....
The comments on dagger boards and foiling rudders got me thinking. I'd never given the rudders much thought before, other than when having seen them, I thought they looked unwieldy and complex. Perhaps thats what potential newcomers to the Class think? So whilst they clearly work are they having (had?) a detrimental effect on the health of the class? The reason daggerboards were banned is well documented. A unanimous vote to ban them on the grounds that they may handicap owners whose clubs sail on shallow waters and it could lead to a rapid loss in value of boats....hmmm, have we not just seen exactly this happen with the collapse of secondhand boat values? So, should the foiling rudder debate/decision be re-opened?
I also note comments wanting the boats to be a better weight carrier....lets look at that...on our home page we have the words...The 12 is a development class so you can choose a design to meet your exact needs. The different hulls allow helm-crew combinations between 16 & 23 stone to be competitive. It comes down to what your aspiration is....if you want to win the Burton Cup and top end Open meetings then you want a current design and crew weight combo that matches. If you just have a passion for the Class and want to focus on Club sailing or regional meetings then there are plenty of older and vintage boats that make great Club racers, especially with the application of appropriate handicaps. Look at Dinsdale!
I tend to agree that we need to focus on building the health of the Class at Club level. This will be achieved as Ben says by those with a passion for the Class, and most 12 sailors are passionate about the Class and that does rub off. If we need to reduce the number of events on the 12 calender to help support Club sailing then we should be open to that. 
We should try and reverse the decline in NTOA membership and as was mentioned previously I think that the  re-introduction of a (hardcopy) Class magazine would add more value to the cost of the annual membership fee and help "spread the word" and "fuel the passion" amongst owners....

As a Engineer (well in training anyway), I have reverted to type and looked at some data and done some maths

specifically a NHS study summarised on this site:
https://suite.io/catherine-whitlock/2s0z24x
and NHANES study from 2006 for Americans through Wolframalpha

Assuming a N12 is sailed by Mr and Mrs Average, the crew weight from 1993 is 145.5kg and 154.1kg in 2008 this is a increase of 8.6kg over 15years or 0.57Kg a year, My boat was built in 1980, so in 2008 it would have been 28 years old, Assuming a linier average weight gain of the crew of 0.57kg, the crew weight will have increased by 15.96kg. so Mr and Mrs average from 2008 - 15.96Kg gives a average crew weight of 138.14kg in 1980. this is 21 stone 10 pounds. As you would expect  this falls within the 16-23 stone recommended weight.  

Assuming our N12 helm and crew are of equal weight and wanted to fall within weight range they would have to weigh 11.5 stone each, nowadays (well the data's from 2006) only 38% of adults fall below this value, so already we are excluding 62% of people from being competitive, I suspect in 1980 the percentages would have been the other way round.

taking me as a example, I weight about 85Kg so if I wanted to match Mr and Mrs average from 1980 I would need a crew who weights 53kg this limits me to 5% of the adult population or if I want to be within the competitive range 17%

I would be interested to know how many N12 owners bought their boat with a crew already in mind and how many, like me see who's about on the day/organise the week before
 
Peter

^{Sorry to go back to something I have bought up before but I have been spending time thinking through this issue of winged rudders and the ethos of the twelves.
I think that the top helms may be right when they say wings make  the twelve easier to sail but....and it is a big but. To new sailors, or sailors moving up from SMODs etc it appears a step too far. Having thought about it I think this is why the classic and A/C boats are more popular than the new winged ruddered boats which only appeal to the out and out racer intent on winning Burton Weekend and The Gul Series. This elite group is not the backbone f the fleet and is there a danger that we are driving development too far in this direction at the expense of the core group we appeal to.
having always sailed boats with regular rudders myself the thought of sailing with a huge appendage attached to the transom is very off putting especially as I have no dea how to use them to advantage or even the scientific theories involved.
do we aim development at the masses or at the elite sailor. Thinking about it this seems a fundamental question the class, as a whole, must ask itself.}

Quote from: 398  
 
For info, we are currently addressing the issue of a recommended handicap for non foiling DB boats.
 
Jeremy Carey
Chairman NTOA

 
A new non foiling handicap would be great and hopefully bring some value back to these boats which are in no mans land which are currently amazing value for money.   Can't wait to see it. 
 
Jon
miffy 3466

Always wanted a 12, finally purchased one and re-furbished it with the long term in mind .  I saw the 12 Class as friendly and welcoming with the ability to tinker with your boat and experiment for your own pleasure, it still has all of these. 
It is only my view but allowing foils completely took away any vision and possibility of ever winning a championship race. The fleet immediately became split for the minority allowing only crews with the ability to sail and cash to buy a DCB, in with a chance.
The Merlin Class I believe had the foiling debate and opted not to go that route.
Would taking away the use T foils be such a bad thing looking at the long term interests of the class? 
John - N3500

It would be interesting to see if there was a vote amongst the association membership whether they would get enough votes to keep foiling rudders. If non foiling rudders make the class more appealing and given this is what the thread is all about then surely the  folk that run the class need to consider that.  I know there will be some that would say we are in a development class but   Is this one development too far and not in the long term interests of the class?
 
Martin

As a relative newbie to the N12 class having, believe it or not, come from sailing merlins on and off for 20+ years, the Merlins went through a tough time in the early 2000's, with stagnating designs and weird ideas but what revived the class to that of one which is now very healthy, is a strong 2nd hand market and sensible decisions being made by the committee to shut down splinter groups that wanted winged rudders, smooth hulls etc,etc. Whilst the Merlin is a restricted developemnt class and innovation is encouraged, boats of all ages remain competitive providing excellent racing across a wide range of designs . I am no expert in the N12 class but if you do not start to police what is good or bad for the class then you will end up very quickly like the I14 which has become 'cheque book' sailing for the elite!!
I love the 12 and Merlin, always have done, but if you are not careful the back bone of the class (mid fleet sailor) will migrate to a class where they can enjoy competitve sailing on a level playing field. 

This is clearly a tricky problem and I won't pretend to have an easy answer.  However...
Why would you ask the association membership about foiling rudders making the boat more appealing?  Surely that is a question to be asked of those who don't have a 12 - they are the majority and those reading this and contributing to it are a clear and vocal minority section of the minority!
The members once said that a 4 day Championships was more appealing than a 6 day Championships.  It actually seems to be more like that it is equally appealing.
As this is about the rules, winged rudders have always been allowed.  In fact i think 2014 is the 20 year anniversary of T-foil rudders in N12s so it could be argued that there is nothing new under the sun.  There was, however, a rule change in approx 2010 which gave clarity to "normal rudder fittings" (well actually deleted the phrase as it was so unclear) but this made it easier for people to retro fit more than anything.  It enabled nothing as if you had a set up such as mine, the old rule was fine.   It also limited size which again was sensible.  It is right that the Merlins chose to ban when they arrived on 12s and that does not seem to have been a bad choice for them to make.  They had no boats in the fleet whereas the 12s had not been concerned by more than 10 years of development before they started winning things.  Indeed many people had told me we were barking up the wrong tree!  I think that banning things for the 12 would have been pretty brave given the interest in foiling moths etc in the last 10 years.  
And lets be clear that you dont have to have a DCB to have a chance of winning a race, but you do probably need a winged rudder or a better idea than that to do it at the moment.  3431 (a feeling foolish) is being sailed by teenagers with a home built rudder as part of a school project.  The biggest expense for them has been the new sails.   It is possible, but it is not easy.  The reality is most of those at the front of the fleet chose to buy new boats rather than retro fit, and a further reality is that we all have less time to fiddle / tune our boats than maybe we would like to.
For the record I am off to Salcombe next weekend in a borrowed boat as mine is not available.  No T-foil, still hope to win a race though and certainly believe it is possible!  John Thornton won the October meeting at Salcombe a couple of years back.  We will have fun, will probably struggle upwind for speed at times and will probably find downwind harder but not certainly not slower as all that drag from wings does limit top speed.
Come and join us!
John
N3543

After lots pondering and gazing out the window and coming to the conclusion the answer might be 43. I thought it was about time to stick a post in this thread.

First up like most other responses to this thread I don’t think changing some rules will get more people sailing 12’s. To me it’s a bit like chewing gum to answer an algebra problem.  Also like me old mucka and fellow former cherubist I find myself in strange place my saying now is probably not the time to do anything radical. I also think the members shouldn’t go banning or limiting things just because one boat designer has got the more numbers more right than others.

It also seems everyone was pretty happy for the thinkers and the tinkers to play winged rudders right up until they got them working and constantly started beating people.  I also wonder if winged rudder were banned while the ban would probably not so much effect the  P2’s but DCB’s and Hi-jack. Will probably have real problems with lift when planning from what I have heard on the grapevine about Grazz using his DCB without the winged rudder. The result could be the that a whole generation of boats de-value over night. 
Those are my first thoughts, more to follow over the weekend ;)

Smilie, this is exactly what happened with the daggerboard and the same chap got that working. It was okay then to ban something which had been around for a number of years........so what has changed now to make this option such a no no?

Having said now is not the time to change anything I’m going to contradict myself but then there’s nothing like kicking about ideas about rule changes.

If there was going to be changing of rules then I would like to see;
 I really think it is about time to lose the centre of gravity correctors in masts.  With the majority of the fleet using black sticks and pretty much all of them bought off the rack. I think the old reason of limiting a masts weight and CG has passed. It just seams daft to keep screwing lead into masts. Especially if when you consider a properly engineered carbon mast isn’t just about making a very light mast with a low centre of gravity it's part of it but not all. You would probably still get a race winning mast by breaking the bank to get an aerodynamically efficient mast with the right bend characteristics all achieved with top end high modulus carbon and adding lead to it isn't going to blunt it's effect much. Also adding lead to carbon masts also seems completely at odds with the word ‘development’ in the class title. I don’t think Merlin’s add lead to their masts and they haven’t seen a explosion of oooba expensive masts. For that matter at the other end of the scale nether have 18’s (comparatively speaking) which pretty much with what they can do with their rigs.  

This may not be the time to change the sail plan but it might be a good time to have a proper look to see if the rig is heading in the right direction. And I’m not just talking revisiting the debate if sails should be fully battened with more area. More along the lines to see if the sail plan as to be as good as it can be the, sails are easy to make, last a sensible amount of time and haven’t picked any strange design details which could be done better if the rules were slightly different. 
 I personally would like to be able to have more are at the top of my main sail (move some of it up from the bottom)and maybe another batten to help keep the ‘corner ‘out. Just because pretty much all of my sailing is going to be inland in light to middling breezes. I would all so like to move to rule package which sees the total area measured. Mostly because I think it gives people more scope to experiment, produce  a better looking sail plan and clear up the odd statement which you see on the website where the area is probably around ‘X’  but only ‘X’ is measured.

It’s also worth bearing in mind the Grad’s have changed sail plan, added more area and it hasn’t effect numbers sailing boats. And going back to 18 foot skiffs again they have a varying amount sail area, mast high and sail plan across the fleet and yet the racing is still very close. It’s worth noting the boat which won this years JJ didn’t have the biggest or the rigs but it was the most sorted with guys who had spent the most amount of time sailing together. Having a Ian Murry as team manager might have helped a bit as well ;o)

I also wonder with most new sails now hitting the max head measurement the class as now ended up with the biggest square top you are going to want on a 12 anyway.
 
In answer to Gnavs I’m thinking about putting one on Subversion but really I won’t be seriously thinking about doing it before next year. I’m also thinking of having a go with a new Grad main on Subversion at some stage just to see what it’s like.

very true. it might have happened earlier if Subversion had slightly more powerful aft sections ;)

Quote from: 29Smilie, this is exactly what happened with the daggerboard and the same chap got that working. It was okay then to ban something which had been around for a number of years........so what has changed now to make this option such a no no?

 
The big difference was the ability to grandfather the boats with daggerboards. It also coincided with a big step in design change at the time.The guys who waited on building had baggies not bouncers. This meant the people who had already invested were not left in a significantly disadvantaged position. As already mentioned, the DCB does not work without the extra stern lift, hence why in lighter winds the other boats do well. It is also not ultimately fastest boat downwind in a blow. The design and wing just allow you to push harder for longer. 
A group of us had this very discussion at the Thorpe Bay champs. I actually used the same arguments you have used here. 
Bottom line is as there was minimal support for a ban. The wings were then sensibly limited at Hayling Island. We could potentially have picked a limit of zero.  By that time most of us realised that they are a good thing to have. They are not an impediment to sailing inland. The only place I would be reluctant to sail would be north west Norfolk, but many have and do. Most of us who do have them sail inland, rivers gravel  Pits etc. I would not want to go back. A well designed winged boat is easier to sail, carries more weight, and is no more hassle than my previous national 12's. What is more it can be a relatively cheap conversion if done at home, and has been shown to work on older designs as well. 
Do the question is, why should we change the rules. Or should we actually show people what they are missing. Personally I sailed the DCB on a river, and in light winds before making up my mind about the subject. I am not using my boat much at the moment, so you are welcome to try it for yourself. I am sure you would actually find its fine .
 
Andy Mck

Quote from: 236
 What is more it can be a relatively cheap conversion if done at home, and has been shown to work on older designs as well. 

Have recently had a chat with My Exocet Kevin Ellway while looking at photo's of Subversion. Kevin thinks Subversion with her very pinched in transom and fine entry would go very quickly with a winged rudder.
Thinking about and looking at now the Pink Ovi foolish was converted over to a fooling rudder it would be a massive hassle to convert Subversion if was tempted.

There is a system in which the adjustment is pretty much all in the rudder stock which requires the minimal amount of work on the boat itself. It is currently fitted to two boats that l know about, dare bary's ginger pudding and John Thornton's chapter. The only additions needed to the hull are a bit of transom strengthening (triangulation at the pintles if not already there and a few blocks and cleats in the boat. The great thing about this method is you can easily switch foils from boat to boat without the need of the complexities of the ram seen on the pink foolish 'Alpha Male' I'll try and get photos of it when l next see John.

Andy as we are talking about trying to sell the 12 to none 12 sailors it is the perception of things that has more impact than actual facts. I have no doubts that winged rudders are great, would I want to sail with one, don't know. Also it was perceived that daggerboards were harder to sail with but having seen some of the street legals and early baggies sailing with them I never heard one person have actual problems with them and that was sailing on the midland circuit and Earlswood club sailing. This was at venues such as Avon sc, Trent valley etc. should have left it where you had a choice but how people would perceive the problem was taken into account by the committee of the time. Problem is, what is seen to be stalling sales of 12 s can only be addressed by those people who might be interested but don't for whatever reason. Those who are active in the fleet will very rarely find fault with the product they sail week in week out for obvious reason, ie we all lve the 12

Quote from: 29Problem is, what is seen to be stalling sales of 12 s can only be addressed by those people who might be interested but don't for whatever reason. Those who are active in the fleet will very rarely find fault with the product they sail week in week out for obvious reason, ie we all love the 12

I have got a few ideas on this subject which I will write about more when I have got a mo (being dyslexic pretty much every post is drafted in word first)
I always think this is why the Dinghy Show is a the best shop window and great acid test about what other sailors think of your class. The guys on the stand this year will know how got a show they had, plus who ever it is who picks up the emails from the website from people interested in getting a 12. So I'm slightly wondering if there is more behind the setting up of this thread than a response to the thread you started.

Quote from: 566There is a system in which the adjustment is pretty much all in the rudder stock which requires the minimal amount of work on the boat itself. It is currently fitted to two boats that l know about, dare bary's ginger pudding and John Thornton's chapter. The only additions needed to the hull are a bit of transom strengthening (triangulation at the pintles if not already there and a few blocks and cleats in the boat. The great thing about this method is you can easily switch foils from boat to boat without the need of the complexities of the ram seen on the pink foolish 'Alpha Male' I'll try and get photos of it when l next see John.

Cool, I had found a few posts about Dare's system when hunting through google it looks good. I know this is more work for probably a already busy committee, I'm thinking it might be good to have a section on the website (maybe?? only open to members) about DIY winged rudders, how to use them and the different systems of control. Could be a really good way to demystify these foiling rudders to those who haven’t used them and are new to the class.

My theory is that the winged rudder is like mast spreaders.  Most people have a vague idea of what they do, but very few have a detailed knowledge of how they work.  Most people look at the tunning guide for their spreaders and set them so, and only adjust them if something is not quite working and they ask someone with more knowledge.  From what I have read about winged rudders, this is fairly the same.  They need an initial setup (angle) for a specific crew-weight / sailing style/location combination but then don't need much adjustment while sailing.  The top crews who know what they're doing will adjust them more to suit conditions etc. than the rest of us mere mortals, the same as they might with rig-tension and spreader settings.
 
This is my suggestion then - the full rigging guide needs a section on setting up a winged rudder (i.e. heavy-weight crews try this..., inland-sailors try this... etc.) and its basic control.  This would then make the winged rudder seem more of a major part of the N12 class for outsiders looking in, and may help give owners the confidence to start to use them.  As will all gadgets, its the first try that some people are usually scared of, once they have been using them for a bit, suddenly they realise its not scary and start wondering how to adjust it...

DIY stores are going bust, because people don't want DIY. The trade says, people are cash rich and time poor.
Like wise, is the development class dead. I have a Twelve and a Merlin and there are no other Dev. boats in the club, we had 60 people on the water yesterday.
 

reduced in some areas but doing well in others. Both the moths and cherubs are doing really well for them selves at the mo but then there's no one really in their niche.

I (with Grahams help) have added some photos on the gallery of the rudder control system including Dares, dead cat bounce and paradigm systems
hopefully this link should take you there, http://www.national12.org/gallery/index.php?cat=10306 (http://www.national12.org/gallery/index.php?cat=10306)

As a preivous (briefly) N12 sailor. I know that one of the reasons I stopped sailig was the loss of my regular crew. I toyed with the idea of modifying the boat for single handed sailing before giing it up. The reason I did not do this was because I would not have a recognised PY number and I would be out of class (deavaluing my boat).
Could it be possible to allow single handed sailing in class rules? this would allow those members of the assoociation who lose crews to apathy or university etc, to stay in the class. it would also probably provoke new designs specifically tailored to the single hander.
I'm sure there are good arguments against this - perhaps the RYA hae rules against it or something? but a light, technical, carbon 12 rigged for a single hander that could sail at the champs (with a special trophy), inland events, and have an official PY for club racing would surely be appealing to many?
 
Phil

for the record.
I have returned to the class because I have been able
1. to persuade my crew that sailing a boat that is too small and that hurts her is better than not sailing at all.
2. to buy a modern (non-foiling) up together boat for not very much money (i.e roughly the cost of a pastic admirals cup boat 5 or 7 years ago)
I'm not put off by the foiling rudders because I'm pretty certain that my new boat will accept a retro fit when I'm ready to get one.
Whilst I have an interest in the minutiea of the rules, actually it had absolutely no bearing on my decision to sail N12's again. I doubt whether any prospective purchaser will be influenced with the changes to the sail plan, kicker, daggerboards or rudder. However taking a wider view it is reasonable to argue that developments devalue out-of-date boats, which is a good thing if you want to sail N12's but can't afford the latest.
Clearly if you want to win then its going to be expensive in N12's but I'd suggest winning in any sailing class needs a substantial investment of money and time. I'm sure that a trickle of new baots will in turn increase and provide a reservoir of decent foiling second hand boats in time. But I don't really think the number of new boat builds is a great metric for the health of a class. I had a choice of suitable boats on the 2nd hand list that met my needs. It's really the number of boats regularly sailing isn't it? So to that end I will put forward only one suggestion ..... and I'm sure it will be shot to pieces. Introduce a handicap adjusted cup to the gull series  and national's. Then all the different 'classifications' of N12's can fight for the one cup.
And actually if we want to win back the sailors who have gone elsewhere we need to shout loadly what is obvious to us all - that N12s' are a wonderful boat to sail.
Matt

Having just bought 3246 I think this is a great idea and would make me more likely to attend opens. At least I would know I had a chance of winning something IF my sailing was good enough.
but not for champs, Inlands etc. not sure of gull series either but for area trophys etc great idea

The class does recognise all the variuos ages of 12 at most opens, and certainly the gul series. Gul sponsorship this year has been incredibly generous with the first AC, Db, and foilers walking away with nye on £100 in gul vouchers. The recent survey asked exactly that question on whether to hold handicap events so if you haven't answered it, now is your chance to vote to request the change. We go to different events in different 12s from DB to vintage and l have to say that we have had more success sailing the vintage than the foolish! Last year at ranelagh we were 2nd on the water and at henley we had a great time tussling with a foiled paradigm and only lost out on the final leg when the wind increased, at the event was a complete mix of all types of 12, DB, AC, vintage and foiled.

You could do both. Give an overall result first pass the post and then extract the handicap results and award prizes for both.
On a separate note does the number of 12s currently for sale on Apollo Duck  given the size of the class give cause for concern?

Quote from: 189 the number of 12s currently for sale on Apollo Duck  given the size of the class give cause for concern?

At lot more 12s for sale than Larks / Fireflies
As a new crew, I'd buy the right boat if I could find a regular crew... the boats are certainly attractive in what they do and the class is friendly.

Interesting to note that a very strong portion of them are what I would regard as later (No's above 3100) designs, followed by a handful of late 4 plankers.  Only a couple of vintage boats in there.
Some of them look excellent value, if you are a whippet with an even lighter junior crew.
Has the class designed itself into a corner over the last 30 years?  Shallow cockpit, complexity, low boom and little room for the crew up front.
Comment from an older, slightly fat, clinker/early 4 planker owner.
But more to the point is the maintenance, if I had a penny for everyone at my club who has 'gone to plastic' for an easier life, I would be a rich man...Or at least I could buy myself a beer.
Still, it is the end of the season.
Cheers

Quote from: 49As a preivous (briefly) N12 sailor. I know that one of the reasons I stopped sailig was the loss of my regular crew. I toyed with the idea of modifying the boat for single handed sailing before giing it up. The reason I did not do this was because I would not have a recognised PY number and I would be out of class (deavaluing my boat). 
Phil

As someone also unable to find a crew, this would make N12's more accessible for me also.

I do find it odd, would you buy a Merlin Rocket and then expect to be provided with a single handed handicap for what is a two man boat.
Also having looked through the rules I can see nothing about the number of crew required so I guess the handicap has to be the same otherwise what is to stop people sailing opens, champs etc and sailing double handed in strong winds on one handicap and single handed in light winds on a more favourable handicap. Perhaps at club level handicaps could be adjusted. I know at Earlswood Lakes S.C we did this many years ago

I quite often sail my 12 singlehanded if the conditions allow and i face a lack of crew. So does one of my Club compatriots. Being on the large size for 12 helms it is actually a benefit and we go faster....we sail off the current handicap for our Crusader's...1104. The Club is quite happy for us to be sailing the boats singlehanded..unlike some i Know...they are just happy to have boats on the water. The 12 is perfectly easy to sail singlehanded up to a F3. If you cast your mind back to 1948...the Olympic singlehander class was...The Firefly!

Quote from: 29I do find it odd, would you buy a Merlin Rocket and then expect to be provided with a single handed handicap for what is a two man boat.

I agree, it's not that I'm wishing to complain that the National 12 is too restrictive in it's intended crew tally. It's more along the lines of I'm in a position where single handed sailing is a more viable option but there isn't a class of boat I'd rather sail more than a 12. A lot of smaller clubs don't have an issue with it, but Phil's suggestions sounded exciting on a wider scale.

Quote from: 29Also having looked through the rules I can see nothing about the number of crew required

perhaps single handed is the way forward .... it wouldn't take much to make most national 12's controllable within the helms reach. Add a trapeze (only allowed to use when single handed of course) and the righting moment is about where it would be for two. A sinple self tacker within the current rules and jobs-a-good-un.
Can't think of a simpler retro fit that could do so much for getting boats out on the water.
Would also promote a tendency towards simpler rigging which can only be a good thing to my mind.

Both my classics have come rigged for single handing. Both Sparkle and Spider.  No idea if they were raced like that, but I am often out in light conditions on my own.

I think the idea f sailing single handed within the existing rules is one thing but changing the rules to accommodate this is another thing completely and goes against the wishes of the founding fathers of the class..who set out to promote a two man boat.
Stuart

To quote the rule book:

"12 CREW
The crew shall consist of two persons including the helmsman."

[face=HelveticaNeue-Roman]That being said, I have sailed countless club races singlehanded in various Twelves and they are a delight to sail singlehanded. My single hnded weight at 14stones+ was nearer to some competitors weights two up than I could have been when sailing with a crew. The local club rules permitted sailing singlehanded and used the normal 12 handicap, though some races were personal handicaps wich tended to correct matters.  Strictly speaking I was sailing out of class.[/face]

I certainlly wouldnt advocate changing the rules or designs etc to make the 12  a singlehander.....merely that in certain conditions/circumstances it is possible to sail one on your own....

given that double bottomed boats are now becoming the norm for entering the class, given the cost of ~£2000 and their presence on the 2nd hand boat list (though I stand to be corrected on this). Wouldn't a reduction in minimium weight be a positive move. Pretty much all of the double bottom boats have lead afaik so removing this would make for easier shoreside handling and a generally more attractive proposition wrt RS200's and the like.
 
Matt
N3496