Are we an ageing population?

[Barry]

The musto skiff survey is good - and I'll subscribe to their newsletter now.

All old and light it appears! ( I'm definitely one and definitely not the other).

I'm the archetypal new N12 sailor in via the low cost AC route - but now with two other boats (N12 is number 3), limited sailing time, limited boat funds and an increasing size crew,  the N12 - beautiful in wood as she is and tucked up nice and dry and warm in the garage - may have to go.

Barry
N3364

[rick perkins]

... maybe when people join the class they buy an AC because there arn't any DB's for sale.

When I looked I think the boat we brought was the ONLY DB for sale ...

Rick

[Jimbo41]

Rick, re. your quote...

It didn't take me very long to get hooked and want a DB boat!!! I think the major hurdle is the price of a DB - even a 2nd Hand one is expensive (Passion Pudding is perhaps an exception) look at the 2nd hand market for Ospreys - compared with a more recent AC yot. The class is apparently attractive to (re)turners with Kids filled with enthusisam with limited budgets.

I get the impression - rightly or wrongly - that the class DB issue is not one of cost, more of weight. The article in Ratchet re. carbon seem to support this view. Carbon is however, expensive (Mr. T's Crazy Diamond is for example, apparently not a 2nd Hand Market option). Glass is less expensive, but perhaps heavier.

The answer to this problem is maybe to have some type of "concensus build" for those who would like to be competitive, but can't afford to buy a DB at the current average price.  

Saying that and not wishing to be too advertisingly biased   Dare Barry has said that his hull material costs add up to no more than around 600-800 Squids. This does not include the cost of building the hull though, nor the fittings....

We've heard elsewhere that wooden based boats can't be built lighter before they lose their stiffness. But, I ask you, when you're taking your kids out  to sail at least weightwise you've got the edge on a fully grown crew anyway. In my view, build wood and satisfy this market interest.

Oh, and if those of you out there want to sell their 2nd hand DB's - the market will, inevitably determine the price....Unless you all want to keep them unused and grumbling in your second garage for 20 years or so....

Ok, rant's over....

Jim N3130 3470 (wood - you should)

[rick perkins]

[Jimbo41]

[rick perkins]

See ... you already know the answer.

But of course you need to do the research first so you get the right message for the right segment.

Rick

[Jimbo41]

Rick, I've a suggestion we should (heavily) advertise Burton Week and invite people down to see the yots in practice. There might even be the chance of a tryout... ??)

I seem to remember that Grazz mentioned there was a kind of open class publicity day on some (obscure) stretch of inland water and that N12 volunteers were called for. I think it was last year. Maybe we should also get in amongst the Vareos, Toppers, Cadets, Mirrors etc. and shake 'em up a bit. We could also have an event of our own... Sponsors please - you know who you are, now shake your beans!!!

Publicity via Y&Y? They seem fairly sympathetic to our cause (if the money's right)

Wot do the rest of us think???

Jim N3130 and 3470 (steaming up over the horizon).

[THG]

Don't we need to get our boats out sailing - from a quick check (vlookup is a good Excel function!) of the DBs using the 06 Gil and BW - where are these boats??

3413,3414,3416,3417,3420,3422,3424,3425,3426,3433,3434,3435,3440,3444,3445,3446,3448,3451,3452,3453,3456,3461,3462,3466,3467,3470,3475,3476,3478,3480,3486,3487,3489,3503,3504

Thats 34 DBs maybe not seen out this year?? This may not be an exact count - if you did similar for AC types from say 3000 to 3410 - what would the active count be vs non-active?

If we don't sail our own boats why should others see us on their radar screen?  I'm still quite sure that most DBs go to an existing N12 sailor.  The issue maybe is we don't have the 'go fast extra' kit (whereas we don't actually need it to be nearly as fast or faster) - this is much about product perception & marketing - how many gizmos do you have on your new bit of hi tech equipment - how often do you usually use them??  How do we get folks considering a 2 person boat to put us on their list??  This is where we will struggle - our Club had an Rs500 demo day last year - to help attract possible yoof sailors / parent / yoof - the ACs are just NOT suited to our water - but would RS tell you that???  I'm sure we all have people at our own Clubs that like the appearance of going faster in  a more 'modern' boat but the reality is the 12 is a developed class.

Kean

[Jon_P]

Why not have a National 12 day?!
Get boats to meet up at clubs so there are 4-5 boats at big ish clubs around thecountry and let people tyry them ?
We have an open day at our club for general sailing and get hundreds of random people turn up.
not sure if it would really work but thought mihgt suggest it!

main problem i see is trying to stop people buying rs200s.  they are the only real new build threat.
why not do a comparison in y&Y, stating weights and performance etc.
put them on an inland lake and get them to race and see difference in performace!

[THG]

rs200, rs feva, firefly, ent, laser 2k, miracle, magno, comet duo??, etc - i'm sure there are more are all potentials for someones radar screen - I know I considered some of these before opting for a 12.

[Jon_P]

It would be really interesting comparison  and I'm sure great  publicity to have at the boat shows stating various  weights etc, and I'm sure we would do well in the comparison, even on new build price against 2k and 200.

i think you can cut down that list a bit too as otherwise you would end up with every 2 person boat! I think you can take out the feva as it's a pretty tiny boat and maybe even the miracle as it's crap! - no offense to anyone who has a 2nd boat that happens to be a mirracle! Even th e 2k is a bit more a of a family cruiser than a nimble racing dinghy. if that's what they want then the n12 would not be for them anyway.

[rick perkins]

[JohnMurrell]

In answer to Keans question, at least three of the boats were never built despite having numbers allocated - 3425, 3487 and 3504. And in addition another three club race week in week out only  limited interest in travelling away from home, 3435, 3452 and 3480

Also we have to remember that the strength of a class isn't just judged by open meeting numbers - the real strength is in the numbers club racing, the grass roots of our sport.

Currently at Salcombe we have 5 boats that club race on a regular basis and I think that there will be more next year - I doubt that any of them will do any open meetings in 2007 except the 2 Salcombe ones. They have all bought Twelves because they are possibly the best class to sail on the estuary and if we get about 6 boats racing week in week out who needs the agro and expense of trailing around the country to realistically sail against the same people in what amounts to glorified club racing?

We have to remember that not everyone actually enjoys drivng 2 or 3 hours in a car to get to a venue, having had a sparrow f**t start, to sail 3 races and be almost too sh****d out to then drive home!

My personal belief is that historicaly the class has put too much emphesis on the Open Meeting circuit to the detriment of the classes club racing base.

One of the delights of a Twelve is that its possible to pick up a crew of the beach and go sailing - how many crews have been introduced to the class this way and have then gone on to be very competitent helms in the class, I can think of quite a few from Salcombe to start with!!

Will I be doing any opens next year, once the knees allow me back on the water? I doubt it, I will be supporting fleet racing in my home club!

Got that one off my chest.....................................

John

[Lukepiewalker]

If you looked at the other opens outside of the Gill series I think you would find most of those boats....

[rick perkins]