RYA Dinghy Show - Alexandra Palace - 3rd/4th March

[rick perkins]

Mike,

A couple of questions ...

What would be the typical build weight of a non-carbon boat?

Does a carbon boat offer any performance advantage?

What is the difference in material cost between the two?

The second one is a bit subjective I know ...

[Jimbo41]

[quote by=Mikey_C link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1170716281,s=44 date=1172494627]Wood and epoxy isnt cheap. Find a pro builder who will build you a cheap wood boat.

Glass sandwich is cheap, easy and quick. All you need is half a brain, the ability to ask questions, and a mould and there are plenty of these about for rent/free use. You dont have to use carbon to get underweight and we have been over all that before.

We had a pretty recent run on home builds, most of them were pretty cheap and some of them very fast, seems the only problem is finding motivated people.

And Jim, if those people at the front of the fleet hadnt sold up and moved on to newer boats, we wouldnt have nearly 100 db boats. I made a point of selling my last 3 boats after 2 years of ownership, purely because I could, not because I needed to.

[/quote]

Mikey, Dare is a professional boat builder. he uses wood and epoxy.

It's very generous of you to give up your boats after such a short time. It also makes sense since it's a form of advertising  ( No offense meant either).

You say glass sandwhich is quick easy and cheap. Give me the price of a typical glass boat made this way and the cost of the hull and I'll work out then that the other bits are really overpriced.  

With Dare the hull costs say 700 squid, (see his pdf on how to build in wood plus inflation). ok. Now subtract this cost from the cost of a P&B Foolish all up, around 7000 squid, being generous. Additional "components" (ahem) 6300 squid. Come on, this IS a question of  profit margin!!!!  We're not after trade secrets here by the way.

Jim. (Make it work and get people on the water)

[Mikey C]

[davidgr (Guest)]

[Barry]

If the 12 is to still be here in another 70 years depends on it's ability to continue to develop and improve.

Seems to me that there has been little significant development for the last 10 years and as such the current 12 is now locked in time just as much as any manufactures class.

As the dominant design is now 12 years old either it's near the perfect for the rule or no-one has any abitite for designing a new hull.

Good point well made.

With lots of money at stake in a new pro build boat - the safest route has to be  follow and tweak.

Barry
N3364 (Going, g)

[John Meadowcroft]

Why I wont go to China....

You can get a boat built in the UK and pay no VAT or duty on the hull - not true with P&B, but I believe true with Aardvark.

Importing a boat from China you will have to pay both VAT and import duty adding circa 25% to the cost (based on the experience of importing a Carbon mast from NZ).  You will also have to pay shipping costs.  You will find that Shanghai to UK is a busy route and that shipping something bulky that weighs 50kg (I am assuming a UK fit out...) will not be cheap unless you are filling a container.  You then need to insure the container (remember MSC Napoli?) and pay an import agent/freight forwarder.  You wont be able to go to the dock and slide the boat onto a combi trailer.

Re the transport, I worked with a business that was a rotomoulder - thankfully not making dinghies.  The economics of rotomoulding are as bad as boatbuilding - hence no doubt why they may find each other attractive - but the key lesson learned across a much larger industry than boatbuilding was that freight costs were very high compared to product value.

Be clear that the major cost in building a 12 is labour followed by materials.  Ship it far enough and you can reduce the labour cost, substituting it for freight cost and paying the same for materials.  Surely we need to get a grip on the environmental harm of international trade?  Get the boats built locally and support the local economies.  Boat owners deserve a decent product, boat builders deserve a decent wage.  It has nothing to do with wood or non-wood.

So you pay these bills.  What happens when something is not quite right.  Oh yes, you send it to P&B....(They dont have my mast yet though.)



john

[rick perkins]

[philipcosson]

I can't see how you don't pay VAT to Mike Cooke... Are the boats classed as childrens shoes?

The high shipping costs from china will be why you just can't find anything sold in britain these days manufactured in china, I search but just can't find - it's like Viagra, they tell me it's wonderful, but I've never been able to find out where you buy it from!

Planet saving - please don't get me started on planet saving! If NOT shipping a few 50Kg boats from china is 'doing your bit' then heaven help us! I guess that's why we all cycle to work, holiday in our gardens, and never travel to open meetings (or the dinghy show)

Boat Hulls are pretty ideal shapes for stacking in a container, and 50kg is over weight for a bare carbon hull surely? (you don't have to ship the lead over as well)

Philip

[Mikey C]

Yup, Childrens shoes for the American Market  

I have not passed the threshold for having to register for VAT as yet, and my finest financial friends told me to leave it for as long as I can (thank you Prune&Diamond).

Get em while they're hot

[rick perkins]

[quote by=Mikey_C link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1170716281,s=53 date=1172565590]
I have not passed the threshold for having to register for VAT as yet, and my finest financial friends told me to leave it for as long as I can (thank you Prune&Diamond).

Get em while they're hot[/quote]

In a buiness like yours where most of the added value is labour going through the VAT threshold will be painfull.

But ... it means that getting a boat from you now saves 17.5% ...

[Jimbo41]

[icecreamman]

Going back to David's point I tend to agree that at any one time in history we have had a couple of dominant designs that run in parallel at any one period of time. At the minute we seem to have the Foolish and the Chapters battling it out, previously we have had the Cheshire Cats vying it out with Paper Darts and I can just remember the Whispers battling it out with the China Dolls. I guess that we should be looking forward to seeing a couple of new designs in the near future that will come to the fore as both the FFs and FCs have been around for some time.
As for Rick's comments about sail plans .... well that has been up for discussion for years and I am sure that it will continue for a few more. That is the beauty of development classes.

 

[tedcordall]

...but between each of the three eras of 12 above was there not a significant rule change?

[icecreamman]

Probably but age fuddles the mind
 

[Roly Mo]