Dear all
The NTOA will be exhibiting at the RYA Dinghy Show at Alexandra Palace on 3/4 March. Our stand will feature a brand new Feeling Foolish being built for Kevin Iles by P&B. The boat is from a new builder to the Class. Come and visit and be first in line to place an order for one!
Any volunteers to help man our stand, please email me on john 'at' 2baileyclose.net or phone - number is in the book.
Thanks to those who have already volunteered, I shall be in touch.
cheers
John
Hey john, as like last year i'm okay to help both days!
nath
Team Roly Mo will be there on the Saturday and will be happy to help anytime up until about 3pm. Ellie says she'd like to hand out balloons!
I'll be there in spirit, if not in body....
Me too....
Where's the Laguvulin?
Jim.
As I understand it the answer to that is no, these are boats that you can buy from P&B with their brand and reputation at risk. In fairness to them there are two points:
1. If the first boat it not to their high standards the next one might come from another new builder and so there is little point advertising the name.
2. The builder of the new boat is not a builder that has ever built a 12, or indeed until the last few months any racing dinghy, so their name will not have the selling point that Winder had.
The good news is that they are on schedule to have the boat at P&B in 2 weeks, to be fitted out in plenty of time for the Dinghy Show. I am pretty excited to see it, despite what I have heard about the colour scheme, and assuming that it looks good I suspect that a fresh off-the-shelf product could be just what is needed to kick-start new builds and create a trickle down of good DB boats on to the 2nd hand market.
Antony
Sadly Winder boats were not very interested in building 12s as there were not enough orders coming from the Class. Perhaps a sad commercial reality, but nonetheless something that cannot be ignored. Customers dont want long build times. You are right though - they do want quality boats. Winders build Fireballs, Solos, Merlin Rockets, and from 2007 Mirrors !. All of these in substantially larger volumes than they have ever built 12s.
A change in the builder to someone who can deliver and then there is a chance of more new boats on the scene. Don't make too much fuss about it. Does not sound like a leap of faith to me. More like common sense from a business that wants the Class to succeed. P&B had the choice to market a 12 or not. They have chosen to find a new builder. Whilst not a boatbuilder I understand that they are a highly experienced composites producer but who have made products for non marine applications. Wait and see the product before you rush to judgement. I think you could be surprised!
So come along and see the vessel at the Dinghy Show - 'dodgy' colour scheme (sorry Kevin!) and all!
I cant wait.
John
No doubt the new builder are experts in composite construction and perhaps come from a backgroubd where standards of construction and finish are HIGHER than those of a typical dinghy builder ...
We all know Winder build excellent boats but I am sure there are other who also know what to do with smelly sticky stuff ... roll on the new boats (shame it's not an evolved FF ...)
I think the position of not telling people who is doing the construction is causing people to be suspiscious (sp?) why not just say ... they are not boat builders but no doubt have a good reputation in their field ...and of course the truth will out at some point (it always does)
Rick
Hmm...vicous rumours about the 'dodgy' colour scheme, beauty is in the eye of the beholder! I don't believe there are more than three people who know the actual colour so you will simply have to wait and see.
Tom has been overseeing the quality of build and the builders do have an outstanding reputation in their field. The thing to remember is that this is a P&B boat and they have a very good reputation for quality so would not put their name to anything that didn't fit their brand ethos.
Rick - you are right the quality outside of the marine industry may well set standards the marine industry should aspire too!
What is with the wedding stationary? I thought the Gore's had cornered this market in the South East?
Jane
PS Will be available to be on the stand for Saturday and I believe will do a fantastic job of promoting it as a family class ;D
[quote by=Jane_Wade link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1170716281,s=10 date=1170931174]
What is with the wedding stationary? [/quote]
Click the link if you are interested - sig is mainly there for the benefit of spiders but of course anyone who is planning to get married can always take a look ... :)
regards,
Rick
Interesting website Rick - Higher Management (aka H.M.) organises weddings for those wanting to come over to do the whole thing from start to finish in Germany (e.g. Schloss Neuschwanstein, Wieskirche, Munich area, Rhein region... etc. etc.) from places as far afield as Uzbekistan and the USA. I'll pass on your details..;). I guess you'll be around for Burton Week and/or Salcombe? We're doing both. See you there :)
Cheers!
Jim.
P.S. I also think that if P&B have chosen this firm, they must be pretty good!
[quote by=Jimbo41 link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1170716281,s=12 date=1170938297] I'll pass on your details..;). I guess you'll be around for Burton Week and/or Salcombe? We're doing both. See you there :) [/quote]
Thanks - we will be at BW.
Back on topic now ...
Plenty of people outsource things and brand them and this is no different.
This is a P&B product - a brand we know & trust ...
it would be sensible to off shore production of the hull to china, as it is a labour intensive process this would keep costs right down. The raw material often comes from their anyway http://www.made-in-china.com/showroom/nbyyltbx
the big question for most people will be the selling price not the colour. If they have off shored the production - is that going to translate into a lower retail price or more profit?
It is being built in Suffolk, onshore Suffolk rather than off the coast. When you meet a rich custom builder of high-tech racing dinghies perhaps you could point them out to me. I know some of the best in the country and none of them are exactly flash with their cash!!
Antony
[quote by=off shore (Guest) link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1170716281,s=15 date=1172125878]it would be sensible to off shore production of the hull to china, as it is a labour intensive process this would keep costs right down. The raw material often comes from their anyway http://www.made-in-china.com/showroom/nbyyltbx
the big question for most people will be the selling price not the colour. If they have off shored the production - is that going to translate into a lower retail price or more profit?[/quote]
That only works if they have the skills & knowledge - this is a very low volume specialised business. Not popping out plastic rubbish ...
Why do most F1 cars get built in the UK? Because that is where the skills are ...
On the shipping moulds out to the Far East just ask Laser as I have been realably informed that Laser are bring there moulds back in to the UK as there have been Quailty Issues and these are just GRP boats not Carbon Epoxy boats. They even asked all there old staff back for a meeting / party and asked them to come back.
James
N3304 Up for Sale
N3402
Didn't realise Laser's production was centralised. I thought they worked out licensing agreements. That was the case a few years ago when they were producing windsurfer boards. I got a no-name board as a "second" from one of the manufacturers based in Wisbeech. Perhaps there was a quality issue.... :-/
Jim.
Hi Jim
Laser used to get boats like the Laser 3000, laser 500 Dart's, EPS, Were made by a parter / sister company called Preformance Sailboat in Falmouth,then they shifted production to Banbury and then out the the far east, there company in falmouth was better quailty than Banbury and production time less the experance in there work force was years old many did at least 10+ years at the company and when they closed some of there work force came up to Seaquest yachts were I was working at the time and they were good.
Cheers
James
N3304 For Sale
N3402
Rick posted - "Why do most F1 cars get built in the UK? Because that is where the skills are ..."
Rick, you are joking about the F1 comparison right? on what possible planet could you compare the technology level required to build an F1 car with that required to build a National 12????? One of my good school friends, a superbly accomplished electrical engineer, works for a small cambridge company and worked on the design and build for a data logger for a F1 car. The budget was huge and he worked with a team of people for over a year on the design and build. Just for the data logger!!! (Remember the thread about electronic equipment allowed on a N12?????)
I think this "quality" bunk is insulting to the chinese. The N12 ethos was that it could be built by the gifted amatuer. The chinese are quoted as being able to build stealth bombers out of kevlar epoxy composite! I quote from a defence concern document - "The PRC acquisition of composite technology is an interesting case study. It indicates a broad-based set of joint-venture initiatives directed toward providing for the PRC a state-of-the-art composite materials/aerospace structure capability."
How hard can a N12 be???? can winder knock up a kevlar stealth bomber?????
Here are 10 things the chinease do better than us (well canada...) http://aolnetscape.workopolis.com/servlet/Content/fasttrack/20041023/CHINATEN23?section=Technology
Philip
Well then just order your next boat from your chosen Chinese one-off boat builder then ...
A couple of comments to keep thiss one going....
1)Did you know that the "mystery" boat builder in rural suffolk also builds composite racing cars.?
2) Difficult for P&B to get their moulds back from China if production by an unproven builder is not good enough.
3) Quality of fake Rolex watches would suggest copying and production of masts/booms/foils etc a good idea at low cost?
My point is that as an individual - I am not likely to contact the chinese and overcome the problems of communication - but as a company like P&B I would jump at the chance - once you have a partnership - you can invest in that and start building all sorts of things - spars, foils, and other hull designs.
If you did a run of 20 hulls - and sold them at a price the market set, not the builder then the class might attract a lot of new members.
One problem would be that this would undercut all the second hand values of newish boats. Perhaps this is one of the factors supporting a high price for new builds at the moment.
Another would be that all 20 would be identical - so it would be close to one design racing at the top of the fleet. The only innovation would be in the rig. This would probably be the reason not to go for it.
I only speculated that this might be the 'big secret' - i'm not advocating it, its just a 'thought experiment'
The fact that the 'big secret' was that its made in suffolk was a little underwhelming to be honest! John Ellis (of Int Canoe fame) makes IC's in carbon - he started making motocycle parts last year for a company. So this sort of crossover can go both ways - they obviously though a boat builder was better/cheaper than their motorsport supplier.
Philip
[quote by=philipcosson link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1170716281,s=26 date=1172311550]
If you did a run of 20 hulls - and sold them at a price the market set, not the builder then the class might attract a lot of new members.
Philip[/quote]
What is that price?
I'd like someone to show me a boat that actually proves the 12 to be expensive for what it is. vacuum bagged, epoxy, full carbon rig, this is high quality stuff in general we are talking. It SHOULD be more expensive than an RS 200 and I cant think of a single boat that compares otherwise....
From following the Bladerider moth project, they are building 50 boats in a chinese factory and are still selling boats more expensive than the competitors. lord knows when their tooling costs will be covered alone...
Rick,
PC's dominate the market:
1) because of microsoft's near monopoly.
2) apple is one company against 1,000 - apple sell a lot more 'PC's' than Evesham Micro - for example
3) since I went upstairs and had a shower, i've had a worrying thought that the RS200 might be the apple users choice - because the sales messages for the mac are - you just get on and use it, you don't need to learn, no upgrade issues, it plugs in right out of the box
4) it is the apple that is uniform, not the PC - my little 'sideline' company writes software - we tried it on one imac - and it works, so we can say it works on all imacs! we can never say that about PC's because they are all different - This is why games consoles are so popular - games programmers can develop for a known configuration.
Phil
radiography simulation software
virtual radiography
www.shaderware.com
for the spiders (however that works!)
I don't think the PC/mac discussion can be sensibly done on a forum so I won't add any further commenr apart from the comment that the RS200 is not the mac users choice ...
I have four macs, and an International Moth. ;)
[quote by=philipcosson link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1170716281,s=30 date=1172392199]Mike,
Going back to the BETTER that an RS200 bit - The tradegy is that hull develoment has not been that quick, and that devaluation of hulls should not really happened on a timeframe that would be different to a one design. I doubt most people would expect a 10 year old RS hull to win the nationals, but that could happen in the N12 fleet - because it could form the basis of a re-engineered boat - look at Phil David's boat 23 years old baggy trousers with full carbon mast, boom, rudder and spaceframe - and an excellent helm and crew - very competitive. SO this so called disadvantage is actually not true - and the N12 is likely to be competitive for longer, because you can keep updating!
Philip[/quote]
Yes but for the cost of re engineering the baggy the RS200 people could have traded up to a 2 year old RS200 which might do ok at the nationals!
Guys ... you have to stop obsessing about the RS200 ... the N12 is a great boat and offers really enjoyable sailing ... put your energies into telling people about the +ves and leave other classes to their own devises ...
[quote by=rick_perkins link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1170716281,s=37 date=1172427803]Guys ... you have to stop obsessing about the RS200 ... the N12 is a great boat and offers really enjoyable sailing ... put your energies into telling people about the +ves and leave other classes to their own devises ...[/quote]
Its easy pickings, its a similar hull shape, similar size and is the closest in construction i can think of, in that it is foam sandwich and not hardcore solid glass... Best boat as a guide for an off the shelf product as far as I can see.
Jim, if you leave all your talking to Burton week you wont have any time for sailing.
Interesting train of thought going on here boys. For my two penny worth, I have a wooden professional built vintage four plank boat, a carbon double bottomed one and for sentimental reasons I sorry my daughter has my old wooden Optimist that my father built for me many moons ago (that is another story). What I think we need to see is where the RS200s are when they are 71 like we are. They may not be around and with a bit of luck when the 12s are 140 they still will be. Whether they are or not I doubt if I will be around to see it, but I would like to think that if my grandchildren sail when they come along that they would enjoy the 12 as much as I, both my brothers and my parents have.
If we decide to go for the "Chinese" option we may end up stifling the new designers who turn up out of the blue with something radical. Remember Jo Richards all those years ago who turned up with Subversion I think it was at Fallmouth and won a race in a boat that was home built, had a daggerboard and loose footed main when nobody else was thinking down those lines. If we do go down the mass production line which I fear is what you want Phil this will kill anything like Jo came up with. Personally I think it is great that someone out there has the time, inclination and enthusiasm to home build and the nut on the end of the tiller is good enough to win races at the Burton. Let us not kill this enthusiasm. On the other hand if P&B want to go to China because they think it may lower their costs, let them, they are not the only company involved with building 12s, but are the only ones who are marketing them. Good luck to them, but once again, cast your minds back to before the Paper Dart and ask who was marketing 12s then. Nobody and it did not stifle progress..
Nuff said I will now get down off my ice cream box
:)
Nice words ice cream man.
Getting back to the pre hi-jack nature of this thread.... Dinghy Show is at Alexandra Palace this coming weekend the 3/4 March.
On the stand you will find.....
A National 12
Many Happy National 12 sailors
National 12 merchandise
A Cheesy National 12 DVD playing
National 12 balloons
and much, much more.
Come and meet old friends and make new aquaintances. Visit the P&B stand opposite the N12 stand and combine your visit to Alexandra Palace with an order for your new (British made, I believe...) National 12...
Anyone able to volunteer some time to help man the stand on the sunday (over lunchtime) would be greatly appreciated. Please get in touch - number is in the book, or post here and I will wade through the Mac/PC (I am not PC)/China/RS200 debate.
I have no anecdotes about any of these to share with you, except if you want a class product do not be concerned about paying for it. My next 12 will be buy british if only so I can be close to its birth which is the wonderful joy in getting a new N12 to your own specification. Oh damn, I did have an anecdote.
cheers
John
[quote by=ice_cream_man link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1170716281,s=40 date=1172433345]Remember Jo Richards all those years ago who turned up with Subversion I think it was at Fallmouth and won a race in a boat that was home built, had a daggerboard and loose footed main when nobody else was thinking down those lines. [/quote]
That must have been a great era to sail 12's; an era when it was possible to make a cheap home build to your own design and turn up and test you ideas ...
If the 12 is to still be here in another 70 years depends on it's ability to continue to develop and improve.
Seems to me that there has been little significant development for the last 10 years and as such the current 12 is now locked in time just as much as any manufactures class.
As the dominant design is now 12 years old either it's near the perfect for the rule or no-one has any abitite for designing a new hull.
If the rule now offers little opportunity to develop as designers have exploited every nook & cranny the 12 will not move forward and will fizzle out... seems to me the rig is well overdue some development and the rule should open up ...
Wood and epoxy isnt cheap. Find a pro builder who will build you a cheap wood boat.
Glass sandwich is cheap, easy and quick. All you need is half a brain, the ability to ask questions, and a mould and there are plenty of these about for rent/free use. You dont have to use carbon to get underweight and we have been over all that before.
We had a pretty recent run on home builds, most of them were pretty cheap and some of them very fast, seems the only problem is finding motivated people.
And Jim, if those people at the front of the fleet hadnt sold up and moved on to newer boats, we wouldnt have nearly 100 db boats. I made a point of selling my last 3 boats after 2 years of ownership, purely because I could, not because I needed to.
Mike,
A couple of questions ...
What would be the typical build weight of a non-carbon boat?
Does a carbon boat offer any performance advantage?
What is the difference in material cost between the two?
The second one is a bit subjective I know ...
[quote by=Mikey_C link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1170716281,s=44 date=1172494627]Wood and epoxy isnt cheap. Find a pro builder who will build you a cheap wood boat.
Glass sandwich is cheap, easy and quick. All you need is half a brain, the ability to ask questions, and a mould and there are plenty of these about for rent/free use. You dont have to use carbon to get underweight and we have been over all that before.
We had a pretty recent run on home builds, most of them were pretty cheap and some of them very fast, seems the only problem is finding motivated people.
And Jim, if those people at the front of the fleet hadnt sold up and moved on to newer boats, we wouldnt have nearly 100 db boats. I made a point of selling my last 3 boats after 2 years of ownership, purely because I could, not because I needed to.
[/quote]
Mikey, Dare is a professional boat builder. he uses wood and epoxy.
It's very generous of you to give up your boats after such a short time. It also makes sense since it's a form of advertising ( ;);D No offense meant either).
You say glass sandwhich is quick easy and cheap. Give me the price of a typical glass boat made this way and the cost of the hull and I'll work out then that the other bits are really overpriced.
With Dare the hull costs say 700 squid, (see his pdf on how to build in wood plus inflation). ok. Now subtract this cost from the cost of a P&B Foolish all up, around 7000 squid, being generous. Additional "components" (ahem) 6300 squid. Come on, this IS a question of profit margin!!!! We're not after trade secrets here by the way.
Jim. (Make it work and get people on the water)
QuoteIf the 12 is to still be here in another 70 years depends on it's ability to continue to develop and improve.
Seems to me that there has been little significant development for the last 10 years and as such the current 12 is now locked in time just as much as any manufactures class.
As the dominant design is now 12 years old either it's near the perfect for the rule or no-one has any abitite for designing a new hull.
Good point well made.
With lots of money at stake in a new pro build boat - the safest route has to be follow and tweak.
Barry
N3364 (Going, g)
Why I wont go to China....
You can get a boat built in the UK and pay no VAT or duty on the hull - not true with P&B, but I believe true with Aardvark.
Importing a boat from China you will have to pay both VAT and import duty adding circa 25% to the cost (based on the experience of importing a Carbon mast from NZ). You will also have to pay shipping costs. You will find that Shanghai to UK is a busy route and that shipping something bulky that weighs 50kg (I am assuming a UK fit out...) will not be cheap unless you are filling a container. You then need to insure the container (remember MSC Napoli?) and pay an import agent/freight forwarder. You wont be able to go to the dock and slide the boat onto a combi trailer.
Re the transport, I worked with a business that was a rotomoulder - thankfully not making dinghies. The economics of rotomoulding are as bad as boatbuilding - hence no doubt why they may find each other attractive - but the key lesson learned across a much larger industry than boatbuilding was that freight costs were very high compared to product value.
Be clear that the major cost in building a 12 is labour followed by materials. Ship it far enough and you can reduce the labour cost, substituting it for freight cost and paying the same for materials. Surely we need to get a grip on the environmental harm of international trade? Get the boats built locally and support the local economies. Boat owners deserve a decent product, boat builders deserve a decent wage. It has nothing to do with wood or non-wood.
So you pay these bills. What happens when something is not quite right. Oh yes, you send it to P&B....(They dont have my mast yet though.)
john
I can't see how you don't pay VAT to Mike Cooke... Are the boats classed as childrens shoes?
The high shipping costs from china will be why you just can't find anything sold in britain these days manufactured in china, I search but just can't find - it's like Viagra, they tell me it's wonderful, but I've never been able to find out where you buy it from!
Planet saving - please don't get me started on planet saving! If NOT shipping a few 50Kg boats from china is 'doing your bit' then heaven help us! I guess that's why we all cycle to work, holiday in our gardens, and never travel to open meetings (or the dinghy show)
Boat Hulls are pretty ideal shapes for stacking in a container, and 50kg is over weight for a bare carbon hull surely? (you don't have to ship the lead over as well)
Philip
Yup, Childrens shoes for the American Market :P
I have not passed the threshold for having to register for VAT as yet, and my finest financial friends told me to leave it for as long as I can (thank you Prune&Diamond).
Get em while they're hot
[quote by=Mikey_C link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1170716281,s=53 date=1172565590]
I have not passed the threshold for having to register for VAT as yet, and my finest financial friends told me to leave it for as long as I can (thank you Prune&Diamond).
Get em while they're hot[/quote]
In a buiness like yours where most of the added value is labour going through the VAT threshold will be painfull.
But ... it means that getting a boat from you now saves 17.5% ...
Going back to David's point I tend to agree that at any one time in history we have had a couple of dominant designs that run in parallel at any one period of time. At the minute we seem to have the Foolish and the Chapters battling it out, previously we have had the Cheshire Cats vying it out with Paper Darts and I can just remember the Whispers battling it out with the China Dolls. I guess that we should be looking forward to seeing a couple of new designs in the near future that will come to the fore as both the FFs and FCs have been around for some time.
As for Rick's comments about sail plans .... well that has been up for discussion for years and I am sure that it will continue for a few more. That is the beauty of development classes.
:)
...but between each of the three eras of 12 above was there not a significant rule change?
Probably but age fuddles the mind
:P
I built the prototype for the Hartley boat, they are pretty simple to build as it is just a case of make hull, make deck, glue together. theres a few more large pieces (floor, thwart/box) and a lot more surface area in a N12.
Mike - realised you did the build (nice looking boat too) - but if you look at it as a package side by side - cherub has bigger mast, sails, 3rd sail, extra pole etc - why wouldn't a 12 come out cheaper than a Cherub?
Would be intersting to do a real comparison of say the Cherub from hartley vs a new P&B 'off the shelf' packages and see how they compare. I hear Hartley have a good reputation for quality so this seems to be a realistic side by side comparison - for an 'on the water' package and not just the hull costs.
Perhaps this will drive the market price to where it needs to be??
Kean
Ah - but whats in the 'from' - do I get a full carbon rig for example with P&B? Still seems to me the off the shelf Cherub represents 'better value for money' of course very subjective but look at how we attract new people to the Class. This is a bit like phone tarriffs - ever tried to make a direct comparison??? There could be more hidden costs for the off the peg Cherub too (all marketing speak)!!
The point was well made before maybe we need a couple of good off the peg standard designs which attract in new owers - yes P&B has taken this up and sought out a new supplier but is VFM being delivered - only time and orders will tell.
At least we DO have the option to home build, find a builder,go off the peg and various in betweens unlike the SMODs which is a much truer and open market but you could argue at what 'cost' to the fleet if it ain't growing much. Hope this is the boost we need and a few newer DBs on the 2nd hand market - could be interesting...
I have no idea of the quality of the Cherub, however I wonder how light and rubust the Hartley Cherub will be given there experience is with Ospreys and Kestrels, which are no light weights. To be fair to them their Osprey looked pretty good (plug by Kevin Driver).
Their prices are good too, and Hartley has pumped a fair amount of money into the business which I believe is run by his son, I do wonder about their business model since I can only see them getting a decent return if they can sell quite a lot of boats.
On the business side, much though I admire P&B's support from the class, the price must be pumped up slightly because they act as an intermediary, do you buy the Cherub direct from Hartley?
Also, as in most things in life, you get what you pay for.
Regards,
David
3461
To us mere mortals, it's time on the water that counts, learning how to keep metal over plastic (yes, I'm not yet into a "carbon over carbon" budget) and very much the case as we're new to 12's.
From the outside coming in, there has be an easy, relatively low cost entry route that provides competitive sailing at an attractive cost. In our case it was a Design 8 that's got bucket loads of life left in it. Super high tech, super high complexity doesn't suit all and not everyone has the aspirations to win the Burton Cup (although we all dream. . ).
Sailing is different these days. We consume the sport instead of being consumed by it; we want easy access to our sport as time is precious (I know, we run a two kid taxi service).I've yet to see the P&B offering; with those prices, could be they're looking to recoup some set up costs, but they have taken up the baton of providing a package, albeit at a price.
Maybe a vanilla boat that looks the part, another essential these days, that provides off the shelf performance at maybe 97% without looking for those final, few, costly percent, is a way forward, within a framework of class that provide opportunity for innovation and experiment for those that feel inclined.
Personally, that is the appeal of the 12 and I can't wait to take up the challenge.
Phil
Welcome to 12s. the boat you have purchased is the previous generation P&B off the shelf boat. It was originally built for Jon Ibbotson - he now has the latest P&B product.
the high quality off the shelf package has an exceptional life time. The first Design 8 was 3283 - built in 1988! Your boat is a mere 13 years old.
Don't forget these boats were the cutting edge, winning plenty of Open Meetings, Burton Weeks etc.
I really dont see that there is much profit in the price of these boats at all. The value for someone like P&B being involved in new build is in helping to develop a strong class which they are then strongly linked to. If 20 boats are built a year and they do 5, there are another 15 that need covers, trailers, sails, fittings etc. They won't get them all but it is a larger pie and their piece of the pie will be bigger. I am sure that they would like all 20, but realistically they want to promote new builds in the Class.
Those launching a new boat want something that little bit special. That is what you need to win big races. You pay for that little bit of speciality. You don't have to have it and you are free to follow your own options. P&B strongly believe in a high quality build. That is why your Design 8 is in such good nick - it was excellently built to start with.
Finally I have had 3 12s built. The P&B supplied Feeling Foolish was easily the cheapest. I wrote one large cheque rather than a number of smaller ones, but it was the cheapest.
John
Mike is of course right. That production Cherub is a *much* simpler build than a National. The pole and sail aren't really a lot of extra work with a build worked out in the way that one is. A Cherub built to the most sophisticated spec of some recent boats with stump rig, foredeck,full height spine etc would be a lot more expensive - at least 50% more labour at a guess. I would think that if I wanted Mike or Andy Paterson to build me a new Cherub to the equivalent setup of my last one I would be talking 11K plus.