What is not in the 78kg?

Mikey C · 25 Mar 2007, 12:34

I would use it.

Main thing with daggerboards/daggerboard rudders is you can choose to sail with them half up and still have a sensibly balanced boat whereas you cant with a centreboard. I actually thing it's inferior to a db in shallow waters. As long as you can take the impacts out (eg with a raking db box) there really is no problem.

Jimbo41 · 25 Mar 2007, 12:45

THG · 25 Mar 2007, 01:02

Jim - bit pedantic but say your'e running on the river CB up then there's no early warning system for the fixed rudder!! Of course you don't HAVE to use a fixed / vertical sliding rudder and other options are available - maybe we need a system like the flying moths (wave height adjuster) - a sort of depth checker that can then automatically raise the db/rudder??? Probably not possible or praticle but hey it could be an option??!

The swinging db still appeals.

Kean

rick perkins · 25 Mar 2007, 01:44

It does seem a bit daft to ban somthing that is faster on the grounds of "saftey" and then allow a fixed rudder that can rip your transom off ...

Yes you can change rudders but then again you could choose a centerboard over a daggerbaord when you brought your boat (not that easy to change though ...

It's these type of contradictions in the rules that don't really make sense to me ...

Is anyone going to respond to the bloke on the Y&Y Forum ... I think it deserves a response from one of the class experts.

regards,

Rick

Jimbo41 · 25 Mar 2007, 02:13

Rick - It's getting very hot on this thread!

I'm not the one to do that, but perhaps you might be able to persuade John Murrell or indeed Antony to answer that thread.

The reason for the contradiction with c'board versus dagger and fixed versus lifting/dagger rudders is - as far as I can recollect/understand from another web discussion and from the 2000 handbook - historical.

There was the fear that the resell value of boats with daggers would fall, since they were often sold for lake and/or restricted water sailing, where grounding is/was commonplace. It all sounds a little hypercritical, since people should have the freedom to devalue their boats should they choose to do so, but there you are. In my opinion, a rotating daggerboard c'b combination would be ideal, but these were/are also banned, perhaps because they gave those who built them in an unfair advantage over those who were unable/unwilling to make the change. a good person to talk to on this subject would be John Murrell, since he's got a bouncer, one of the 12s with a centreboard (I think).

Cheers!

Jim.

JohnMurrell · 25 Mar 2007, 02:36

Jim,

Try a Bouncer with a DAGGERBOARD and DOUBLEFLOOR!

And as to why D/boards were banned is a bit hazy in my memory, but I am fairly sure it wasn't down to safety. Mike, can Terry cast his mind back that far back? From a personal view, I prefer to keep the board that bit further forward, hence a d/board or why Mikes style of hatchet c/board works as he outlined in the Yearbook.

And Jim you would be amazed how small and shallow the rudder on the Doll is!

rick perkins · 25 Mar 2007, 02:52

John,

Will you post an answer for the bloke on the Y&Y forum ...

Not good for the class to leave a comment like that hanging with no response and I am not qualified to answer it ...

Rick

Jimbo41 · 25 Mar 2007, 03:02

JohnMurrell · 25 Mar 2007, 03:39

Rick,

I am going to - just trying to find last years AGM papers that put the whole thing into perspective!

rick perkins · 25 Mar 2007, 03:43

[quote by=John_Murrell link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1169288680,s=68 date=1169739596]Rick,

I am going to - just trying to find last years AGM papers that put the whole thing into perspective![/quote]

OK - I am very interested into the answer aboyt mast positions ...

Rick

rick perkins · 25 Mar 2007, 05:00

John,

To support your response on the sail area issue there is an excellent article in the 2003 mag

http://www.national12.org/private/Newsletter/Annual%20Newsletter/2003/newsletter2003.pdf

Pages 23 - 25.

Seems having a bigger jib does not reduce the all up sail area ...

regards,

Rick

PS - Who is Fluke?

Mikey C · 25 Mar 2007, 07:10

Fluke = Tom Edom, not heard from him for a while - built himself a oneoff wooden moth a couple of years ago and I believe is trying to make it fly...

At this rate you are going to have covered all of the last 5 or so years of rule discussions in one thread, in one week! Good going.

rick perkins · 25 Mar 2007, 08:44

JimC · 25 Mar 2007, 09:12

I just had a look at my 1936 Uffa Fox book: I can't be sure, but from his drawings it looks as if the original Uffa King design sported a fixed rudder!

An interesting comment on that sail area calculation is that it seems the N12 fore and aft sails were substantially bigger than Cherub ones up intil 1984, and the same size from 84 through to 1997. Actually I rather thought they were at the time when I think about it.

JohnMurrell · 25 Mar 2007, 10:20

Jim,

Looking at the drawings in 'The Story of the National Twelve' I think that you are right and that the great man did intend that rudder to be fixed. Unfortunately I didn't see Westwind's rudder down at the NMMC last week, but that could have given a clue (possibly!)

Looking at my premetrification rules of 1971, the foot was f/2+2', quarter height 3f/4+1.5' and 2' from the head shall never exceed -f/3 0.25'. ( thank God I wasn't a measurer than!) back then the standard rig for a Twelve was what we termed as a 60 / 30 rig and its onlt relatevely recenty that we went to the smaller jib which allowed narrower sheeting and the ability to outpoint most other classes. How often when handicap racing do we sit to leeward going up wind calling 'Up up' and getting abuse for stuffing into the wind from classes that are pointing a good 5 or 10 degrees less than a Twelve and then we sail striaight through their lee?