er, burgee ...?
Mike D
jib boom.
Tacktick Compass
[quote by=John_Meadowcroft link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1169288680,s=2 date=1169410915]jib boom.
[/quote]
It's in the above .... looks like I have added it all up OK then ...
So if the rule was simplified to a sailing weight then I guess 87kgs would be the figure.
Would that not be simper?
Rick
Rick,
Don't forget that a jib boom isn't the same as a jib pole!
I am sure that a jib boom is heavier that a pole - Meds over to you on that one!
[quote by=John_Murrell link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1169288680,s=5 date=1169453274]Rick,
Don't forget that a jib boom isn't the same as a jib pole!
[/quote]
err .... what is the difference?
Ahhhh Rick!
You've never 'eard of the measurers? They come out in their clinker boats with Seagull outboards and grappling 'ooks an' first thing you know an' they're over yo' gunwhales an' you're boarded like. Then they start to work, gleamin' in the eye....
If you're not playing ball, then it's glug glug glug........
Remember lad "Nobody expects the measurers...."
Ask John Murrell where he keeps 'is Seagull like... ;)
Jim.
Ah ha, me thinks that spot measuring during Salcombe Week sounds like fun, 3470 being the first victim? And James my dear fellow, don't forget what comes oout de bak of seagulls.................
Rick,
A jib stick attaches to the clew of the jib, used off the wind and as most Twelves run them up the mast ( a dangly pole!) actually replace Barber haulers and give enhanced jib twist control.
A Jib Boom whilst effectively doing the same thing is fitted to and rotates around the stem fitting. How do they work? Not sure, Kev Driver spent hours explaining it to me when he was building Big Issue and Malcolm also tried to explain it again on the beach during Salcombe Week - I never did get it! Though I believe that Gavin is having a go with his F'in Boat!
[quote by=John_Murrell link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1169288680,s=11 date=1169475157]Rick,
A jib stick attaches to the clew of the jib, used off the wind and as most Twelves run them up the mast ( a dangly pole!) actually replace Barber haulers and give enhanced jib twist control.
A Jib Boom whilst effectively doing the same thing is fitted to and rotates around the stem fitting. How do they work? Not sure, Kev Driver spent hours explaining it to me when he was building Big Issue and Malcolm also tried to explain it again on the beach during Salcombe Week - I never did get it! Though I believe that Gavin is having a go with his F'in Boat![/quote]
Ah; I see. Not many people are using them I guess ...
i came up with some more...
bailer/bucket
sponge
sandwich.
john
[quote by=John_Meadowcroft link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1169288680,s=14 date=1169555868]i came up with some more...
bailer/bucket
sponge
sandwich.
john
[/quote]
So we pretty much have it covered - so why not just set a sailing weight of 88kgs?
Much simpler and would allow people to have more robust/cheaper rudders and booms at the expense of lead.
I could not believe the price of my rudder when I looked in the P&B catalogue ....
Rick
Wot about Cornish Pastie?
- nice pic of our Captain Pugwash scoffin' one in the Newsletter....
Oh and gofaster stickers..., emergency flares (usefull in my case), Bar(BQ), warps and fenders, spare rudder (useful for Grazz at last BW... ;))
The list is endless.......
[quote by=Jimbo41 link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1169288680,s=16 date=1169560707]Wot about Cornish Pastie?
- nice pic of our Captain Pugwash scoffin' one in the Newsletter....
Oh and gofaster stickers..., emergency flares (usefull in my case), Bar(BQ), warps and fenders, spare rudder (useful for Grazz at last BW... ;))
The list is endless.......[/quote]
...and?
The question I raise is why not simplfy the rules to make boats cheaper & more robust without increasing the overall sailing weight ...
Rick
[quote by=rick_perkins link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1169288680,s=17 date=1169566469]
...and?
The question I raise is why not simplfy the rules to make boats cheaper & more robust without increasing the overall sailing weight ...
Rick
[/quote]
Is this likely to happen??? - most (if not all) of the 'top' boats will already have carbon rigs etc - so how will changing the rule make a cheaper (tin mast??) more preferable??? I agree its less confusing but it won't have much other affect (IMHO).
Kean
It was just a suggestion - it's alright for you guys who have had 12's for years but complex rules are hard to digest for new commers who have sailed boats with no certificate for the last 12 years ....
One of the reasons the RS200 is so successful is simplicity ...
Rick
Rick,
If its any consolation I have given up on modern boats, well I am still putting them together for people, but I do find that the older boats have much more character! Kean is enjoying one of my rejenuvation projects and last weekend my brain failed and I hit the wrong button on an eBay bid so I now have in the workshop a Feeling Foolish (Unregistered) a Bouncer and a 7 plank China Doll of '72 vintage! Sad thing is that I really do remember the Doll when it was new and sailed in its first Salcombe Week..................... and hopefully it will make it to its 36th Birthday there next year - champers, cake and all!
John
3003 and 2632
ex 1030, 2368, 2425,2672,2760, 2808, 3062, 3158,3257, 3339, 3396, 3435, 3444 - bet the 200's can't remember such sad details!
Rick,
If its any consolation I have given up on modern boats, well I am still putting them together for people, but I do find that the older boats have much more character! Kean is enjoying one of my rejenuvation projects and last weekend my brain failed and I hit the wrong button on an eBay bid so I now have in the workshop a Feeling Foolish (Unregistered) a Bouncer and a 7 plank China Doll of '72 vintage! Sad thing is that I really do remember the Doll when it was new and sailed in its first Salcombe Week..................... and hopefully it will make it to its 36th Birthday there next year - champers, cake and all!
John
3003 and 2632
ex 1030, 2368, 2425,2672,2760, 2808, 3062, 3158,3257, 3339, 3396, 3435, 3444 - bet the 200's can't remember such sad details!
Drat!
Now you understand how I hit he button on eBay!
[quote by=John_Murrell link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1169288680,s=21 date=1169580689]Rick,
If its any consolation I have given up on modern boats, well I am still putting them together for people, but I do find that the older boats have much more character! Kean is enjoying one of my rejenuvation projects and last weekend my brain failed and I hit the wrong button on an eBay bid so I now have in the workshop a Feeling Foolish (Unregistered) a Bouncer and a 7 plank China Doll of '72 vintage! Sad thing is that I really do remember the Doll when it was new and sailed in its first Salcombe Week..................... and hopefully it will make it to its 36th Birthday there next year - champers, cake and all!
John
3003 and 2632
ex 1030, 2368, 2425,2672,2760, 2808, 3062, 3158,3257, 3339, 3396, 3435, 3444 - bet the 200's can't remember such sad details![/quote]
I am not saying the RS200 is better; we has one (or many) for years and now have a 12 so our view is clear; however the RS200 has been a success in terms of numbers sold and event attendance; perhaps there are a few lessons that can be learnt?
Rick
John
I wondered who brought 2632, I was tempted as this was the boat that Andy upgraded to when we 1st started sailing 12's
Let me know what you do wiith it, any pictures I could send to Andy who now live in Guadeloupe
Regards
Nigel
Rick the beauty of 12s is you can make them as simple or as complicated as you want true you probably go a bit faster if youv've got a complcated one. Unless your simple like me. I think actually the rules for the 12 are quite simple (I still cann't under stand them) Think what will happen if you go for an all up weight. each time you lose break or bend somthing your going to have to reweight. It is not like an rs when you can just go and by another identical one off the shelf.
Its all part of the fun of having a 12.
Now to see if I can post this only once. ::)
Surely as weight in the ends is to be avoided, all that would happen would be people would keep the light rudder and add more lead (or something else heavy, low, and in the middle)...
Rick,
I think the point here is that in todays market its all too easy to go out and buy a boat with all the numbers already dial in and, at the risk of upsetting those that sail them, not really understanding why a certain tweak makes a boat go better. Its very easy to go to Eastleigh and buy a boat off the shelf, set it up the way that the tuning guide says and off you go and if you did it properly get a result .
My belief is that without the Twelve boats like the 200 wouldn't have existed, in the same way as I believe the Merlin spawned the 400's. The essesence is that whilst a class like the Twelve dreams of the heady days of 100+ boats at a champs, the reality is that we appeal to those that like bimbling with our boats and given todays lifestyle fewer and fewer people are prepared to spend time in the garage on a cold and damp Jauary evening sorting out their boat for next Aprill or May. And ok I am in a serious minority here, however with two brand new titanium knees I will be playing on the water again too!
To put things into perspective, last Wednesday I spent the day in Falmouth setting up the Twelve display at NMMC with Andy Wyke and our boats stood out from every other one there, people were drooling over Chunky Monkey, and Andy commented that even when they had an I14 dispaly he didn't get that sort of awe over a boat! Even the museum volunteers who by their own admission couldn't dream of even getting their feet wet were in rapture looking at a modern Twelve.
In truth we are only at the 23rd day of the first month of 2007 and look at what the class has already achieved, if we ain't at the top of the Premier League who is?
Ok Rick, understand what you say, but have you ever looked at the Equipment Rules of Sailing? Almost every class bases its rules on that, but if people sail a homoginisied class the thought processes are taken away from you, Morrison, Howlett et all have done it for you. Sure looking at the wording of the rules is daunting but when ever was anything worthwhile easy? If you download a copy of the Measurers Guide from the homepage and use it as 'bog time reading' which is what a lot of the luninaries of the class in the past have done, its amazing how much lateral thought happens. Remember that Punkarella and Wizardry were concieved after a hard session in the local and a few beer mats. Next day and a couple of sheets of marine ply and Punka entered this world and the rest as they say is history!
I still maintain that its not the wording of the rules thats the problem, its modern lifestyles that preclude people thinking that they have the time to get their heads around them.
But an all up weight gives you more freedom than specifying the weight of a range of components dosn't it?
I would have thought you'd welcome that ...
No I don't agree, not only would it mean that a measurers job would be more differcult and you would have to get the boat cheked everytime you altered anything.
I am firmly of the belief that whilst weight in the boat is of importance, the weight of the crew also plays a major part. To follow your thought process through to its extreme why not weight in boat, helm and crew at every meeting and issue lead to all the lightweights to make it more even for the more robust of us a la the RS600's? Nah!
To be honest too many people blame losing a race on the weight issue and forget that the nut on the end of the tiller made half a metric dozen cockups on the first beat and lost the race there! Anyone who doesn't believe me, join me in the Watch House during Salcombe Week or ask Jimbo41 who drove a safety boat for me last year and also witnesed it first hand!
But how and how often / when do you measure it (overall weight)?
The only effective way is to specify certain components which are not affected significantly by short term moisture ie rope, bare wood for inclusion in any weight prescription and leave the rest - like we are now.
Yes and the crew helm weight issue as well as the nuts. though (yet declaring an interest on both fronts) if you are heavy / error prone then a heavy boat will not help you make up lost ground. Just have to be more cunninggggggg (who spilt hot choclate on my keyboard?)
Roggger
I am sorry but I don't accept your arguments that this would in any way diminish the intellectual challenge to sailors actually I think a simpler rule would actually give more freedom and greater design choice and challenge.
I can see no logical argument for controlling the weight of some items and not others that leads to a situation where people are spending large sums of money to build a very light component and then putting 20kgs of lead in another ... this achieves nothing in performance terms and just makes the boats unnecessarily expensive and fragile.
As for rule enforcement it would be no different from today ... the sailors have a responsibility to be legal and if other competitors feel they are not then protest; it is easy. I assume that people don't frequently cheat so this should not be a big deal.
Seems you guys just spin out as soon as anyone mentions RS200 ...
Rick
[quote by=James_Taylor link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1169288680,s=37 date=1169634720] say you do break some thing at say BW some one else has a spare but that compont is to light e.g. boom, rudder being the most used and broken[/quote]
That is part of my point - they perhaps break because they are unrestricted in weight and people build them too light ...
[quote by=rick_perkins link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1169288680,s=36 date=1169631788]I am sorry but I don't accept your arguments that this would in any way diminish the intellectual challenge to sailors actually I think a simpler rule would actually give more freedom and greater design choice and challenge.
I can see no logical argument for controlling the weight of some items and not others that leads to a situation where people are spending large sums of money to build a very light component and then putting 20kgs of lead in another ... this achieves nothing in performance terms and just makes the boats unnecessarily expensive and fragile.
As for rule enforcement it would be no different from today ... the sailors have a responsibility to be legal and if other competitors feel they are not then protest; it is easy. I assume that people don't frequently cheat so this should not be a big deal.
Seems you guys just spin out as soon as anyone mentions RS200 ...
Rick
[/quote]
Rick, why would simpler rules in general give a greater design choice and challenge and more freedom (from what?)
I think that the same sort of problem would arise as if we were to change our rules so as to follow the ISAF format for the RYA. Large loopholes might be created, leaving the the filed open for creative thinkers to push in the direction they wanted to go, resulting in a problem for the rest of the class, not necessarily a good thing.
I don't spin out when someone mentions RS200 - I've been immunised - I just get slightly queezy - that's all. We ought to ask ourselves the question why, if the RS200 is such a good boat, then why aren't all 12 owners switching to it? For me the question's already been answered - we have more freedom to choose what we want from our 12.
Cheers!
Jim.
Yes I'm sorry too Rick.... Boo Hoo :'(
I think the best time to talk about this sort of thing is face2face over a beer... :D
Are you coming to BW or Salcombe Week?
Cheers!
Jim.
Rick - I see your point - do we need to set rules to 'force' robust / good designs. Don't see this as the answer - aren't market forces going to resolve? If too many masts break then premiums go up too high, also if carbon prices just keep going up then maybe we need to revert back to other materials - I don't see how having an all up weight helps to improve - its likely as now we build masts & hulls light and add in lead (as needed to the current rules).
Is your real point that we are limiting new build / entrants / upgrades as the costs are too high vs SMOD type boats - the market would agree with you - but aren't we like the car market - 12s are a niche (TVR) and you pays your money and takes your choice (RS200 Golf?). The challenge to the Class is how to give the Class a go and see it can offer good value and a USP vs SMODs (i.e you can tinker / change).
The survey results from non Class members should make intersting reading!
Kean
I'll be at most of the Gill Meetings (that don't clash with Musto Skiff events) and BW so will be good to catch up with some of you guys then.
I am not saying we need to be like the RS200 but there are some things to be learn't.
Of course the boat is very different & I have enjoyed many hours in the garage this winter fiddling with my 12 ...
Yes lets encorage choice & innovation but not put new people off with unnecessary complexity.
Rick
Have a look at this thread ... this is how this person views the 12 rule set ...
http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2624&PN=1&TPN=2
Perhaps someone with more 12 rule knowledge could respond to this ...
Rick
PS - Is it true fixed rudders are allowed?
Fixed rudders - er yes, why not?
And also Rick, isn't the reason we changed our sail measurement rules just what Jim C is pointing to; making the sails more efficent with better shelf life?
However I personally believe that the Twelve is a RACING sailboat and that we have to accept that we push the limit of not only the rules but also the materials we use to the extreme so that the production classes from Eastleigh, Banbury or wherever understand the limits and build longevity within them. use the motorsport analagy, build a car that wins a race and then breaks.
I believe that realistically we as a class are at the forefront, along with one or two others , who are still pushing the realms of what works and what wont.
Ok we have digressed from the weight issue, but if things break on the race course thats a race lost, if it breaks just after you got he bullet, he thats a race won!
Having looked at this thread with interest,which started life as what is not included in the 78kg, I for one would do not want to see any wholesale changes to the weight defintions, however we care to measure it. Many people buy and sail 12's because they are a great family boat, give the owners a challenge to race and get the best from it, and also meet a great bunch of friendly guys...and gals...so carrying few extra kg's at the back end of the fleet (where I normally find myself) isn't going to make all that much difference. Regular sailing and finding out what makes them tick is far more valuable, which includes getting friendly tips from other guys. I can easily lose weight from my boat...simply by looking at what I eat!!!
However the fact that we do have a development class also highlights something that some other classes don't have.. and thats plenty of healthy debate on so many issues...I am sure that will never end!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[quote by=John_Murrell link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1169288680,s=48 date=1169679735]Fixed rudders - er yes, why not?[/quote]
I assume daggerboards were banned as many people sail on restricted waters and the class didn't want boats that could be dammaged by running aground ... but ripping your transom off with a fixed rudder is OK?
Rick
PS: John - would you be able to address that blokes points on the Y&Y forum - I have had a go but of course being a newbie I don't know the answers to his points ...
[quote by=John_Murrell link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1169288680,s=48 date=1169679735]Fixed rudders - er yes, why not?[/quote]
Hmm, I don't know, sounds a bit dangerous - what about sailing in restricted waters? You might run aground?!
Selling a AC boat would also become harder as you would state the weight all up, which for most boats would be miles away from this new magical limit.
Isn't the vertical lifting type rudder (cassette) a 'fixed' rudder once its down - sailing in restricted waters it won't kick up. People have the choice to use it or not - but this is at odds with having a rotating centreboard :-/
Kean
I can see there is a potential inconsistency.
You can (any many people do) have 2 rudders. the centreboard/daggerboard issue is a little bit more fundamental! it would be pretty easy to swap your rudder but not convert a daggerboard to a cboard
I am not sure which came first. did rudders always lift or were they all fixed in the early days? I would assume that the initial 12s had big spoon fixed rudders and centreboard. does anyone know?
Meds,
I'm pretty sure that the centreboard came before the daggerboard. It was a 40-45 Kg rotating metal plate in the first 12s...Hardly something to use as a daggerboard....
It's odds on for fixed rudders too, but I can't be sure on that.
Cheers!
Jim.
Back to a previous thread then on a 'rotating dagger board' which was banned! This novel idea seems to offer best of both worlds (no experience so maybe talking BS) - wondering how many would convert / new builds would use this in preference to a CB.
Yes you can have 2 rudders - more expense! But hey thats our choice (unlike death & taxes).
Kean
I would use it.
Main thing with daggerboards/daggerboard rudders is you can choose to sail with them half up and still have a sensibly balanced boat whereas you cant with a centreboard. I actually thing it's inferior to a db in shallow waters. As long as you can take the impacts out (eg with a raking db box) there really is no problem.
Jim - bit pedantic but say your'e running on the river CB up then there's no early warning system for the fixed rudder!! Of course you don't HAVE to use a fixed / vertical sliding rudder and other options are available - maybe we need a system like the flying moths (wave height adjuster) - a sort of depth checker that can then automatically raise the db/rudder??? Probably not possible or praticle but hey it could be an option??!
The swinging db still appeals.
Kean
It does seem a bit daft to ban somthing that is faster on the grounds of "saftey" and then allow a fixed rudder that can rip your transom off ...
Yes you can change rudders but then again you could choose a centerboard over a daggerbaord when you brought your boat (not that easy to change though ...
It's these type of contradictions in the rules that don't really make sense to me ...
Is anyone going to respond to the bloke on the Y&Y Forum ... I think it deserves a response from one of the class experts.
regards,
Rick
Rick - It's getting very hot on this thread!
I'm not the one to do that, but perhaps you might be able to persuade John Murrell or indeed Antony to answer that thread.
The reason for the contradiction with c'board versus dagger and fixed versus lifting/dagger rudders is - as far as I can recollect/understand from another web discussion and from the 2000 handbook - historical.
There was the fear that the resell value of boats with daggers would fall, since they were often sold for lake and/or restricted water sailing, where grounding is/was commonplace. It all sounds a little hypercritical, since people should have the freedom to devalue their boats should they choose to do so, but there you are. In my opinion, a rotating daggerboard c'b combination would be ideal, but these were/are also banned, perhaps because they gave those who built them in an unfair advantage over those who were unable/unwilling to make the change. a good person to talk to on this subject would be John Murrell, since he's got a bouncer, one of the 12s with a centreboard (I think).
Cheers!
Jim.
Jim,
Try a Bouncer with a DAGGERBOARD and DOUBLEFLOOR!
And as to why D/boards were banned is a bit hazy in my memory, but I am fairly sure it wasn't down to safety. Mike, can Terry cast his mind back that far back? From a personal view, I prefer to keep the board that bit further forward, hence a d/board or why Mikes style of hatchet c/board works as he outlined in the Yearbook.
And Jim you would be amazed how small and shallow the rudder on the Doll is!
John,
Will you post an answer for the bloke on the Y&Y forum ...
Not good for the class to leave a comment like that hanging with no response and I am not qualified to answer it ...
Rick
Rick,
I am going to - just trying to find last years AGM papers that put the whole thing into perspective!
[quote by=John_Murrell link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1169288680,s=68 date=1169739596]Rick,
I am going to - just trying to find last years AGM papers that put the whole thing into perspective![/quote]
OK - I am very interested into the answer aboyt mast positions ...
Rick
John,
To support your response on the sail area issue there is an excellent article in the 2003 mag
http://www.national12.org/private/Newsletter/Annual%20Newsletter/2003/newsletter2003.pdf
Pages 23 - 25.
Seems having a bigger jib does not reduce the all up sail area ...
regards,
Rick
PS - Who is Fluke?
Fluke = Tom Edom, not heard from him for a while - built himself a oneoff wooden moth a couple of years ago and I believe is trying to make it fly...
At this rate you are going to have covered all of the last 5 or so years of rule discussions in one thread, in one week! Good going. ;D
I just had a look at my 1936 Uffa Fox book: I can't be sure, but from his drawings it looks as if the original Uffa King design sported a fixed rudder!
An interesting comment on that sail area calculation is that it seems the N12 fore and aft sails were substantially bigger than Cherub ones up intil 1984, and the same size from 84 through to 1997. Actually I rather thought they were at the time when I think about it.
Jim,
Looking at the drawings in 'The Story of the National Twelve' I think that you are right and that the great man did intend that rudder to be fixed. Unfortunately I didn't see Westwind's rudder down at the NMMC last week, but that could have given a clue (possibly!)
Looking at my premetrification rules of 1971, the foot was f/2+2', quarter height 3f/4+1.5' and 2' from the head shall never exceed -f/3 0.25'. ( thank God I wasn't a measurer than!) back then the standard rig for a Twelve was what we termed as a 60 / 30 rig and its onlt relatevely recenty that we went to the smaller jib which allowed narrower sheeting and the ability to outpoint most other classes. How often when handicap racing do we sit to leeward going up wind calling 'Up up' and getting abuse for stuffing into the wind from classes that are pointing a good 5 or 10 degrees less than a Twelve and then we sail striaight through their lee?