Concept 12

[Mikey C]

If people were given free reign over their new boat and given the opportunity to ignore some rules to create a better boat, what would they do and why?

I would free up the sailplan and just measure actual area to create a modern looking rig.
More full battens to give better sail life.
Daggerboard to free up the cockpit and reduce cost.
remove need to jib halyard (pet peeve - who ever drops their jib on the water...)
Maybe get rid of some weight 5-10 Kilos.

I am basically looking for a dispensation to build a boat outside of current rules incorporating ideas to bring the class up to date where I feel it should be. If people have other ideas, or think I am going to be wasting my time and money then please say so....

Look forwards to everyones replies!

Mike Cooke
N3xxx - tba

[MikeDay]

In the spirit of opening up debate (though I know that some people will get very exercised about this), I'd be interested in seeing experiments with the rig (as long as we keep it to 2 sails) - because changes would be relatively affordable and would not necessarily outclass existing boats.

I'd especially like to get rid of the minimum mast weight rule.

However, as a veteran of d*****board debates in the last century, I do not want even to engage in hypothetical discussions on that.

Mike D
N3496

[Jimbo42]

[Jimbo42]

Oops! that should read Jimbo41!

[Lukepiewalker]

I have made no secret of my enthusiasm for rotating wingmasts... Although it's easy to support things when you don't have to pay for them... Other than the rig and the unmentionable I can't think of anything offhand, although I'm probably a pivoting centreboard kind of chap...

[davidg (Guest)]

Hi,

I would go along with Mike's wish list, and if someone is prepared to put their money where there mouth is, I think a concept boat would be a great idea.

I have been thinking for some time that 3 sails should be considered, this might seem like heracy, but the reality is that a lot of decisions in the past have been on the basis of the venues where we have traditionally sailed, given the reallity that most of the current fleet only turns up at open meetings and championships, an assymetric might make the class more appealing.

Mikes concept boat with an Asymetric would be a tasty boat for the 21st century!

How about trying to out 200 the 200?

Regards,

David

[Mikey C]

Thanks for all your comments, all quite helpfull, and yes David, a spinnaker has been considered - will probably build the boat to take one, but still fit in 'normal' 12 rules... I think something around the size of a 400 kite would be about right!

Cheers

Mike

[John Meadowcroft]

Mike

if you are bringing it up to date - "to where you think it should be" then you probably are wasting your time and money as the whole thing is about building consensus for change rather than imposing a personal view.

innovators by their very nature have to bear the risk and expense of change, be that change to a sailing dinghy rule or something outside of sailing.

I am sure many people would be interested, you would get many comments both supportive and negative but hopefully constructive, and you would achieve the objective of spending either substantial time or money or both.

My personal view is that I dont sail a 12 purely for speed - there is more to it than that.  I like the package that we have right now.  In my view any changes that would be good for the Class would be lower risk changes which can be assured to bring people in or bring people back to the Class.  

I reckon that the best way to advocate change is to build the future vision - this enables a choice to be made (any you can then argue for years as to whether the right choice was made).  12s have been built with daggerboards, modified for assymetrical spinnaker, fully battened mainsails, double bottomed floors, boats with two jibs, lead weighted halyards, leeward jibsticks, canting rigs, winged rudders, (Gavin's boat - can't think how to describe!)....and some of these ideas have taken off and led to changes and others have not.

Go on, be a pioneer, but do so in the spirit that your chances of succeeding are relatively low - otherwise everyone else would want to be a pioneer!  Stuff the dispensation route as it has minimal value as far as I can see.  Build a National 12 clone if you want, I am sure you will be welcome around the scene.  Accept it is a prototype, not the real thing, or build within the rules.  

I may like it, or I may not - I will hold judgement until I see it and what it can do.

John M.

[Mikey C]

Its not really as to whether you like it or not, as to what your ideas for the future of the class are, because I really hope it will have changed over the next 5 years, and with the rules as they are, it will not....

[Jimc (Guest)]

An ultra lightweight narrow wing masted boat kinda like a baby NS14 would be cool I should think. Whether its an appropriate evolutionary route for the N12 is another matter. Weight carrying could be quite an issue and my gut feeling is 13ft woul be a nicer length for current size N12 sailors. After all if you're ging to start a new class do the job properly [grin]

I've got some Bethwaite figures for stiffness on the best NS14 rigs when he was doing his masts if you want to go that route, also of course a Bethwaite Cherub wing mast you could take a look at. All the other wing masts I've seen have been completely up the chute stiffness wise.

[terry (Guest)]

Developments boats are interesting but I am still waiting to order my new sails for the results ot the sail plan changes that were discussed at the agm!!!

[Jimmy Whitehead]

hmmm all very intresting but i agree with terry has there been any futher development on the proposed sail plan changes?

Jimmy
3458

[Jimbo41]

I'm going to ask Kevan Bloor (Alverbanks sails) about it. It was mentioned in the AGM minutes of August, but to tell you the truth, I didn't understand a word.....

Jim. (N3130)

[Antony (Guest)]

It is a very minor change with the intention of making a mainsail last longer.  

From what I can gather it is now likely to be debated at the 2006 AGM at Porthpean and is unlikely to be voted on before that.  Given the need for a quorate vote and RYA approval it seems obvious we have missed the window for the change for this season.  

I have made enquiries to ask that the NTOA committee confirm this is the situation so that we can all get on and buy some sails.

Antony
N3484

[Jimbo41]

Antony,
Does this mean that any sail used previously and not conforming to the proposed rule will disqualify the boat concerned? This would be unusual and worrying for me since backend 2005 I ordered a set of Alverbanks based on 1990 measurements for my Tigress N3130.

Jim N3130 (Nutty Shell)