Concept 12

[John Meadowcroft]

No the intention is that all existing sails will be ok and the rule will be carefully drafted to ensure that is the case.

The intention is that all new sails will last longer - as the revised measurements - akin to taking area from lower down the sail and putting them to the top will give the sail additional amounts of what i believe sailmakers call 'stability'.  I dont think it makes the boat any more stable though, but I digress

The 'area' proposed to be moved is pretty minimal, but since it is moving up the sail the assumption is that a new sail would have more power than a new one built to the current rules.

The problem being addressed is the amount of distortion in a sail in the vicinity of the bottom batten.

And this was proposed by the 2 leading sailmakers in the Class....  What nice people.  

Whatever, a rule needs to be proposed to the Class, a general meeting to be held with the appropriate days of notice, enough people to attend it to make it quorate, and then enough people to vote for it to get through.  A number of hurdles...  Personally I think that is a sensible idea given increased sale longevity that will result.

[Jimbo42]

Thanks for your reassuring words John.

Jim N3130 (Nutty Shell)

[tedcordall]

Oh please, not another added on asymmetric. If lightweights want a boat with a 200 sized asymmetric they can buy a 200. If they want one trapeze, a 29er, two trapeze a cherub or an rs800. Don't get me wrong, asymmetrics are brilliant in the right place (open water - windward leeward) but aren't 'the answer' to every class' perceived problems. On rivers and tidal estuaries, some of the 12s traditional haunts, asymmetrics are dreadful, and race nowhere near their handicap.

By the way, what is the perceived problem? An ageing demographic? Adding an asymmetric won't necessarily attract a younger target sailor as they quite rightly want lots of bang for their bucks, big fleets, even racing, a big party and good residual values. No development class can compete on several of these points.

As an 'outsider' I think the 12 hull looks the part but the rig looks a bit archaic (or at least the main does) and you do seem to moan about the longevity (or lack of it) of the sails.Rather than turning the 12 into a whole new class (like the cherub), why not address this, and throw a roachier semi soft rig like the RS300/700 have?

It isn't necessary to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Not having an asymmetric makes the 12 stand out from the crowd.........mind you, I'm sure having one would be a whole lot of fun!

[THG]

[Jimbo42]

[Jimbo42]

[tedcordall]

[quote by=Jimbo42 link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool,m=1135347189,s=19 date=1136578915]Ted, have you ever sailed ANY kind of 12? Jim N3130[/quote]


God no. Mostly trapeze asymmetrics actually! But thats why I don't think they are the answer to every ill. I'm hoping to work up to a 12 presently and thats why I joined the association. However, coming from the outside I was trying to say something about how the 12 looks to someone who doesn't have one but is thinking about it. You might know that the 12 is God's own boat but to keep new members coming in you have to keep convincing non 12 sailors that it is. You need people to look at the boat and say 'Christ, look at that! I want one of those!'

There are loads of newish one designs out there, nearly all have asymmetrics and nearly all are cheaper than a twelve. I was trying to say - Why jump out of your niche - just make the niche bigger.

[tedcordall]

Oh, and re Merlin Rockets. Invest is obviously the right word. Have you seen how much they cost?

[Jimc (Guest)]

invest is *never* the right word for what you do when spending money on sailboats. Apart from being monumentally inccurate it also leads to all soprtsd of muddied thinking about "preserving value"

[Jimbo42]

Ted, you have the right attitude towards attracting the crowds - however, the 12 enjoys a special niche in British sailing, partly due to "its" design and partly due to its development history. This has  always been decided in a democratic way. The major question to be answered at this juncture I think is whether the class can absorb another subclass within it, now that we have Vintage, AC and self-drainers and what might happen to racing, given that the new developments will give the owners of such boats a competitive edge. ? Perhaps we might need yardsticks.....  Another question is of course, our status as a National class. Might it be that because we are not internationally recognised as a class and cannot compete internationally  we are at a dissadvantage in attracting "young blood" right from the start?  

Jim N3130    :-/

[Jim C (Guest)]

[RogerBrisley]

Problem with twelves is

a)divided fleet as a conseqence of being a development class (new boats cost real money - sorry Mike) and

b) being subject to a better off population where individuals (helms& crew) are so much bigger than they were some 70 years ago that it is more dificult to  put a competitive crew and helm together

The disparity in potential performance is significant enough to discourage people from joining us

Jimmy (bless) would like a boat of 13 ft, I think  understand where he is coming from but how can you have a N12 which is 13 ft??!  If we are not big enough you need to go elsewhere.

Many of us sail other boats (lasers,  ok's, 14's where we are less restrcted in our ability to get afloat and enjoy ourselves, competitively,  but still come back to 12 sailing.  

I am quite competitive sailing a laser but despite being in the vanguard of the 12 gill fleet (lapped not just  overlapped) I probably get more satisfaction from my Design 8.

If I were to "design " a concept boat it would probably,  like many others contribution, in reallity not be a twelve but  a new class.  But would I still have the same problems like getting an adult crew who could be " within weight" with a 13 stone helm?  I have recently looked at merlin weights and consider that the small improvement in overall crew wt is not impressive when compared to the additional cost and a symetric spi!  If the association were to "improve"  the 12 class I suspect that rs200's and albacores would be the winners, and as I don't like varnishing guess where i'd be.

I suspect that a concept boat is likely to bust something which in most members eyes does not need fixing.

Roger

3334

[Giles_Edmondes-Preedy]

Why not just de-restrict the sail area - have as much as you can carry - which will give lardbuckets like myself who are putting on a significant proportion of their boats weight every year something to think about.

A bit of fine tuning should therefore give a rule that would allow a greater variety of crew weights to sail 12's - the biggest turn off for the class at my club, (Chipstead) at the moment is the perception that you have to be on the small side ie. under 20 stone to be competitive. Hence our thriving Enterprise fleet for young(ish) couples - people who could, and should, be 12 sailors.

Has anyone got a number for Weigh watchers? (Rant over).

Giles
N3319