2nd hand boats

[rick perkins]

Just looked at the list ... is that correct, not a single DB boat for sale?

[JohnMurrell]

Sounds about right! I don't know of any at the moment and am 'looking'

[MattStiles]

Not good news, I've been keeping my eye open for a DB too.
There again if I had a nice sorted few-year old Foolish I'm not sure I'd be thinking of selling either.  Perhaps we need a radical and fast new design to drive some turnover.  Hang on I'll get me pencil :-)

[rick perkins]

I hope that means there will be lots of new faces at BW of the boats that have been brought up recently.

However, from a class view we now have somewhat of a stalemate ... no (or very few) new builds so no 2nd hand boats so if you'd like to join the class with a competitive boat you are waiting for "deadmans shoes" ...

[Jimbo41]

Rick,

That sounds like "I didn't get where I am today without a checkbook".  

Whilst there is certainly something to be said for having a DB boat (and I'm not going to throw stones since I'm living in a greeenhouse  ) some AC have been converted and others won't be, since their owners prefer(red) the single bottom concept for whatever the reason. Indeed there has been a reversal in trend, some DB boats having been converted to single bottoms (but not AC classified).

I also note that at the last BW an AC boat was manned by a junior team did quite well, so in my opinion doing well isn't just up to having a modern boat.

Oh, yes, I'll be travelling the 1400km to BW this year....

Cheers!
Jim.

[rick perkins]

[Jimbo41]

Simply putting you straight about the misconception of DB automatically being equated with competitiveness. They don't necessarily go hand in hand....In my case, certainly not.  

Jim.  

[THG]

Of course there's always an option to buy one new!!  I think Tom still has a Foolish Hull built by Carbonology to sell on.

Maybe new is still too expensive vs other Classes and a 2nd hand is a cheaper way in.  I'd also agree with Jim - many (if not all 'new' 12 sailors) come in via the AC root - not sure how many go for a DB first time (although Rick you'll say this is because there are no DBs around!).

If the hull design has almost come to its natural evolution (Foolish / BI / some variants of) - then we have effectively become a 'one' design - if so how / why do other Classes have more new builds (is it back to the cost issue again?).  Also once inthe Class some boats go before they hit the for sale board.

Did the survey provide any insight (apart from 52% would like a new boat (difference though between like and being able to afford)?

Another bar discussion lined up for the weekend  ??)

Kean

[rick perkins]

[Jimbo42]

[Mikey C]

So then, the argument should be why there are no fast boats on the secondhand boat list and not why aren't there any DB boats for sale.

Rick's assumption that DB status equates with speed is pretty much spot on though. All the boats around the DB introduction onwards are generally stiffer, lighter and nicer designs than those before - To an outsider its a pretty easy distinction and a good one to make a boat choice on. So they have made a choice, one they can't do anything about!

[Tim L (Guest)]

Bit damned if you do and damned if you don't with the second hand list.  When there are lots of boats on it everybody worries that the class isn't popular.  When there aren't everyone claims the class is stagnating....  It's probably the shortest second hand list I can remember since I started looking at the 12 site 10 years ago (?!?)...  Really suprised that the D8s aren't shifting - few years ago people were snapping them up as soon as they went for sale.

As to stagnation, well we don't really want a quantum leap in design and another fleet division.  Maybe it would have been good if Tom had changed designs as demand for the FF has dropped off just to sow some seeds of doubt in everybodys mind especially those who have the means and motivation to upgrade often and release boats into the second hand market!  Think the BI designs are criminally overlooked - would be really interesting to see how  the lighter top teams would do, after all Mr Morrisson isn't reknowned for designing lemons..............................................

Tim

[tedcordall]

Having only ever sailed self draining boats it was a bit of a shock the first time I capsized when crewing an Albacore - (I'd thought the bucket was for keeping the sandwiches and flask in!) - so I swore I'd never buy a non self draining boat.

As I wanted a 12, but not as my first boat, I couldn't justify (to my wife) spending 4-5k on a foolish, chapter or BI but didn't want a mobile swimming pool. Fortunately Tim Tomlinson's double bottom D8 came up.

My point being that as we live in a self draining world, newcomers to N12 are possibly a bit put off by AC boats.

Discuss.

[rick perkins]

[Antony]

Rick has a very clear understanding of what is one of the biggest issues for the NTOA at the moment.  The reason there are not enough DB boats for sale is that there are not enough being built.  The lack of 'starter' DB boats is preventing people from entering the class at that level, and holdling back the natural progression of people withing the class that has been a historic strength of the 12s.

While there is little that the NTOA can do to actually build boats it is a situation that we are trying to keep on top of.  Where we can we are encouraging people to express an interest in a new build if you have an interest (hence the posting from Meds two weeks ago) and in the near future we will probably try to track which older boats will come on to the market as the new boats are being ordered and built.

As most of you know there is plenty of interest in a new P&B package, but Tom is struggling to produce a product built to the standard we require.  This is not a problem unique to 12s, it is common to a lot of classes that need a high-quality and relatively high-tech build in small numbers.  The only way to help Tom is to give him an indication of how many boats are wanted, as a builder will always be more interest if the prospective pipleine is more than the initial one or two.  Sadly I have to say that I do not think that P&B are yet in a position to announce new plans for their product.

I personally think that the issue with new boats is more to do with how hard it is to put one on the water than it is to do with the final price.  In any case there is little we can do about the price and a bit we can do to explain and facilitate the process.  When cheap packages have been offered in the past it has been noticable that most have still opted to buy the 'grand prix' version.  THe best way to make a boat cheaper is to do more of the work yourslef, and that is still very possible.

Antony
Chairman, NTOA