Just looked at the list ... is that correct, not a single DB boat for sale?
Sounds about right! I don't know of any at the moment and am 'looking'
Not good news, I've been keeping my eye open for a DB too.
There again if I had a nice sorted few-year old Foolish I'm not sure I'd be thinking of selling either. Perhaps we need a radical and fast new design to drive some turnover. Hang on I'll get me pencil :-)
I hope that means there will be lots of new faces at BW of the boats that have been brought up recently.
However, from a class view we now have somewhat of a stalemate ... no (or very few) new builds so no 2nd hand boats so if you'd like to join the class with a competitive boat you are waiting for "deadmans shoes" ...
Rick,
That sounds like "I didn't get where I am today without a checkbook". ;)
Whilst there is certainly something to be said for having a DB boat (and I'm not going to throw stones since I'm living in a greeenhouse ;D) some AC have been converted and others won't be, since their owners prefer(red) the single bottom concept for whatever the reason. Indeed there has been a reversal in trend, some DB boats having been converted to single bottoms (but not AC classified).
I also note that at the last BW an AC boat was manned by a junior team did quite well, so in my opinion doing well isn't just up to having a modern boat.
Oh, yes, I'll be travelling the 1400km to BW this year....
Cheers!
Jim.
Simply putting you straight about the misconception of DB automatically being equated with competitiveness. They don't necessarily go hand in hand....In my case, certainly not. ;)
Jim.
Of course there's always an option to buy one new!! I think Tom still has a Foolish Hull built by Carbonology to sell on.
Maybe new is still too expensive vs other Classes and a 2nd hand is a cheaper way in. I'd also agree with Jim - many (if not all 'new' 12 sailors) come in via the AC root - not sure how many go for a DB first time (although Rick you'll say this is because there are no DBs around!).
If the hull design has almost come to its natural evolution (Foolish / BI / some variants of) - then we have effectively become a 'one' design - if so how / why do other Classes have more new builds (is it back to the cost issue again?). Also once inthe Class some boats go before they hit the for sale board.
Did the survey provide any insight (apart from 52% would like a new boat (difference though between like and being able to afford)?
Another bar discussion lined up for the weekend ??)
Kean
So then, the argument should be why there are no fast boats on the secondhand boat list and not why aren't there any DB boats for sale.
Rick's assumption that DB status equates with speed is pretty much spot on though. All the boats around the DB introduction onwards are generally stiffer, lighter and nicer designs than those before - To an outsider its a pretty easy distinction and a good one to make a boat choice on. So they have made a choice, one they can't do anything about!
Bit damned if you do and damned if you don't with the second hand list. When there are lots of boats on it everybody worries that the class isn't popular. When there aren't everyone claims the class is stagnating.... It's probably the shortest second hand list I can remember since I started looking at the 12 site 10 years ago (?!?)... Really suprised that the D8s aren't shifting - few years ago people were snapping them up as soon as they went for sale.
As to stagnation, well we don't really want a quantum leap in design and another fleet division. Maybe it would have been good if Tom had changed designs as demand for the FF has dropped off just to sow some seeds of doubt in everybodys mind especially those who have the means and motivation to upgrade often and release boats into the second hand market! Think the BI designs are criminally overlooked - would be really interesting to see how the lighter top teams would do, after all Mr Morrisson isn't reknowned for designing lemons..............................................
Tim
Having only ever sailed self draining boats it was a bit of a shock the first time I capsized when crewing an Albacore - (I'd thought the bucket was for keeping the sandwiches and flask in!) - so I swore I'd never buy a non self draining boat.
As I wanted a 12, but not as my first boat, I couldn't justify (to my wife) spending 4-5k on a foolish, chapter or BI but didn't want a mobile swimming pool. Fortunately Tim Tomlinson's double bottom D8 came up.
My point being that as we live in a self draining world, newcomers to N12 are possibly a bit put off by AC boats.
Discuss.
Rick has a very clear understanding of what is one of the biggest issues for the NTOA at the moment. The reason there are not enough DB boats for sale is that there are not enough being built. The lack of 'starter' DB boats is preventing people from entering the class at that level, and holdling back the natural progression of people withing the class that has been a historic strength of the 12s.
While there is little that the NTOA can do to actually build boats it is a situation that we are trying to keep on top of. Where we can we are encouraging people to express an interest in a new build if you have an interest (hence the posting from Meds two weeks ago) and in the near future we will probably try to track which older boats will come on to the market as the new boats are being ordered and built.
As most of you know there is plenty of interest in a new P&B package, but Tom is struggling to produce a product built to the standard we require. This is not a problem unique to 12s, it is common to a lot of classes that need a high-quality and relatively high-tech build in small numbers. The only way to help Tom is to give him an indication of how many boats are wanted, as a builder will always be more interest if the prospective pipleine is more than the initial one or two. Sadly I have to say that I do not think that P&B are yet in a position to announce new plans for their product.
I personally think that the issue with new boats is more to do with how hard it is to put one on the water than it is to do with the final price. In any case there is little we can do about the price and a bit we can do to explain and facilitate the process. When cheap packages have been offered in the past it has been noticable that most have still opted to buy the 'grand prix' version. THe best way to make a boat cheaper is to do more of the work yourslef, and that is still very possible.
Antony
Chairman, NTOA
As a two year old N12 Sailor I brought an AC to start ,still up for sale but I moved quickly when disiding to get a DB boat but as alway funds were very short and N3402 had been up for a while and I got a good deal from Steve, But if funds and time aloud would love to either build from sctrach, Fit out or buy from a builder complete and I expect there are many other like me the money isn't there to buy a new boat.
Rick brought a second hand boat and is alway talking about new boats so if you can afford it go get one and release your's to another.
Yoda most people can olny sail one at a time you want 3. The MASTER AT WORK. :P :P
Cheers
James
N3304 Up for Sale
N3402
[quote by=James_Taylor link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1178611316,s=15 date=1178707636]Rick brought a second hand boat and is alway talking about new boats so if you can afford it go get one and release your's to another.
[/quote]
I have only had this one 5 minutes but I would be perhaps interested in a new boat in years to come once I have understood more about the boats.
The reason I raised this is because a friend showed interest in my boat and I was going to email him some options and I had never seen the 2nd hand boat list devoid of any DB's - thats good & bad ...
Can we encourage those wanting a boat (DB or otherwise) use the wanted section. This may help to identify any potential demand and at what price point they are willing to go to.
If people REALLY want a DB they always have an option of buying new!!
Are people being put off sailing their ACs due to the non-draining aspect?? There's more likely to be other reasons (time commitments, lack of crews, lack of knowledge how to set up & sail etc). Would be good to have more training maybe aimed at the ACers (incl. rigging / setting up as this is an area new to the class seem to be daunted by) and also have some of the 'top sailors' maybe get out once in a while in an AC and show us how it should be done. ACs can still win Opens (maybe not BW)...
I've avoided the no-wind capsize issue but with some practise can now drain out in windy conditions (subject to mast staying in one piece :B)
Kean
Kevin and I sailed an ACer until quite recently and won a race at Pevensey Open Meeting with Tom, Antony, Jonno, Meds and the Cams on the water all in DB boats so it can be done. I think however that 3373 is probably the best AC boat sailing.
Sadly I am not sailing until later this year and P&B dependent it will either be in a shiny new DB Foolish or in 3373.
Rick is spot on with this one. No DB boats on the second hand list is not great news for progressing the class and the lack of new boats on the water is pretty dreadful. Not everyone wants to enter the class via the AC route and I am sure they are many sailing an ACer keen to trade up to a DB 12. My conclusion would be a short second hand list in this instance is actually a bad thing. If new boats are not being built by default the class is shrinking!
Jane
Double Bottom boat now on the secondhand list.
Whoa, there.
At the risk of offending some, lets look at the class as a whole.
We have 3500+ boats, up to 90 or so of which are DB.
This leaves 3409 which fall into the categories from vintage to AC.
The whole tone of this thread follows the trend of the past few years, summed up by DB "good", AC "entry level, we'll chuck it a few minor prizes to allow you to come and keep numbers up, but chuck it asap and get the holy grail (DB)"
I sail an AC design because I like it, it's better suited to my sailing requirements which don't, at the moment , include the championships. (Why just make up the numbers?)Yes, I would spend money on it to upgrade the rig, foils and some fittings, but I don't because the prices of AC's have been totally depressed by the obsession with DB and the investement can not therefore be justified. Look at the prices of new rigs
The DB boats create a quantum leap within the class, both in terms of cost and therefore availability, instead of a smooth progression from old to newer to new the re is only one option, new if you now want to enter and be competitive.
This was fairly obvious from the start. The Merlins don't have the problem, and it is therefore worrth upgrading some old boats until one arrives at the point where an upgrade or a newer boat becomes a toss up.
Older 12's now have no incentive to upgrade, hence the numbers that are rotting away in club dinghy parks. (The cost of new sails can be more than an AC is worth.)
If Anthony wants to create bigger fleets, etc then stop marginalising the majority of 12's in existence and say, to those people who don't like the class rule as it is, and the discipline of development within it, go and create a class and organisation of your own. I'm not anti-development, the Merlins develop within a structure that goes back to the origins of the class in a smooth progression, but the quantum leaps aren't there.
I have been trying to interest a colleague in an unused AC 12 in our dinghy park. His response is, no point, it can't compete with the newer boats. He has therefore acquired a Firefly.
Giles
N3319
well said.
Giles,
I think that you have missed some points, and made some good ones.
This thread was explicitally about buying older DB boats, because that is what the author of the first posting wanted to talk about. There are people that want to come into the fleet with a DB boat, rather than an AC boat, and we need to cater to all of the demand that is out there, so this is a relevant thread.
There are, as you correctly point out, far more AC boats in the world. The NTOA does not organise a single event that is solely for the DB fleet. It does organise Vintage events, and discusses regularly ways to attract more active 4-Planker and Ac activity at events that are organised. The old boat prizes have existed in the fleet for decades, if there are better ways to encourage wider participation then let me know. I very much hope that the NTOA Summer Party at Ripon will see the DB fleet as a small minority of a large and enthusiastic N12 fleet.
There is another issue, which has been discussed by the General Committee, that there is no coherent consitiuency of AC sailors that can be drawn into debating these issues. If there was a volunteer, or a way to create a body, in the same way as the Vintage Wing, to represent the AC fleet at General Committee level then I would be happy to hear from them. It is true that the Committee is primarily comprised of DB sailors, although far from exclusivly, but this is because they volunteer.
There is nothing that we as a class can do about the cost of rigs and sails. The modern AC boats, such as a D8, have not depreciated meaningfully in 10 years, and so I am not sure I follow your point here. If you try to put new sails on an old Lark or Firefly the equation looks at least as imbalanced as in our fleet. A lot of us on the Committee, and dare I admit it very happily sailing our DB boats, put in a lot of time helping people track down and buy AC boats to enter the class and then training people whatever boat they show up with.
Finally, I am not aware of any meangingful rule change that is being discussed at present. There are occassional discussions about low budget ways to enable heavier crew combinations to be competitive but at present the fact that the boat is only 12 feet long and quite light seem to be a block on any thought on this front. I think that almost everybody that was involved in the class in the 1990s accepts that the rule changes were too sudden at that time, some should probably have happened in the 1980s and overall they should have taken more than 10 years rather than 3. That is history, and something that we all have to deal with going forward.
The NTOA as a body, and that includes the Chairman, has no doubt that it is working for all owners of National 12s, whatever their age (of them or their boat!).
Antony (no 'h')
Chairman, NTOA (1997-98, 2006-07)
I fear I may have stumbled into an old issue ...
I was just asking about availability of 2nd hand boats as someone had asked me who had seen mine ...
With regards to older boats it's worth recognising that in One-Designs and Manufactures classes you don't usually see 10 year old boats at the front of the fleet; some exceptions of course but usually the keener people have newer boats.
Seems to me the NTOA do more to accomodate and recognise older boats then any other class assocation.
There are no old boat prizes at the Laser or RS events ...
[quote by=James_Taylor link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1178611316,s=15 date=1178707636]As a two year old N12 Sailor N3402 [/quote]
Gosh!!! you started young did'n't you :P How on EARTH did you manage to peep over the side decks??
Janey
Only just read through this thread; various points to observe:-
1. No S/h DBs for sale? Did I see that N3491 Electric Prune is for sale? And last year no sensible offers for Crazy Diamond (Big Issue 2).
2. What is so great about DB anyway? I have had the floor taken out of N3500 and she is so much more comfortable to sail, and much easier to handle/get around. And even in a capsize she will only half fill with water thanks to a wide central full lenght bouyancy tank. (As I sail inland most of the time, I might just go back to an AC boat if a reasonable offer comes along for N3500).
3. So what are post N3414 non DB boats classed as now? Apparently not AC, but what? Crazy Diamond is not the only one that has been converted.
[quote by=paul_turner link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1178611316,s=27 date=1178892465]Only just read through this thread; various points to observe:-
1. No S/h DBs for sale? Did I see that N3491 Electric Prune is for sale? And last year no sensible offers for Crazy Diamond (Big Issue 2).
[/quote]
That boat wasn't on the list when I started this thread ...
Paul,
Point three is a good one. There are two kinds of single-bottom boat with numbers higher than N3414.
1. The two or three amatuer built boats that were finished late and so have late numbers (from memory these might include 3422 and 3434). In my view any race committee should use their discretion and allow them to compete for any AC prizes and be regarded as Ac boats.
2. Boats, with yours the current best example, built after all of the signficant rule changes but opting to not have a full DB. The last Committee discussion on this subject, as I recall, concluded that there was not reason not to regard these as fully competitive modern 12s able to win any prize that a DB boat could win. You can call it what you want, but Crazy D is certainly not old or an AC boat! I would like to see more people build boats with a layout like you now have, as i can see it being a competitive and attractive option for people wanting a bit more comfort and stability.
To a previous post, or two, I think that the Gill events at Trent Valley, West Riding and Ripon are good examples of the willingness of the class to host major events at venues were the advantages of the modern boats are limited and (at least at TV) possibly non-existent.
Antony
[quote by=Grebesailor link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1178611316,s=21 date=1178825042]Whoa, there.
At the risk of offending some, lets look at the class as a whole.
We have 3500+ boats, up to 90 or so of which are DB.
This leaves 3409 which fall into the categories from vintage to AC.
The whole tone of this thread follows the trend of the past few years, summed up by DB "good", AC "entry level, we'll chuck it a few minor prizes to allow you to come and keep numbers up, but chuck it asap and get the holy grail (DB)"
I sail an AC design because I like it, it's better suited to my sailing requirements which don't, at the moment , include the championships. (Why just make up the numbers?)Yes, I would spend money on it to upgrade the rig, foils and some fittings, but I don't because the prices of AC's have been totally depressed by the obsession with DB and the investement can not therefore be justified. Look at the prices of new rigs
The DB boats create a quantum leap within the class, both in terms of cost and therefore availability, instead of a smooth progression from old to newer to new the re is only one option, new if you now want to enter and be competitive.
This was fairly obvious from the start. The Merlins don't have the problem, and it is therefore worrth upgrading some old boats until one arrives at the point where an upgrade or a newer boat becomes a toss up.
Older 12's now have no incentive to upgrade, hence the numbers that are rotting away in club dinghy parks. (The cost of new sails can be more than an AC is worth.)
If Anthony wants to create bigger fleets, etc then stop marginalising the majority of 12's in existence and say, to those people who don't like the class rule as it is, and the discipline of development within it, go and create a class and organisation of your own. I'm not anti-development, the Merlins develop within a structure that goes back to the origins of the class in a smooth progression, but the quantum leaps aren't there.
I have been trying to interest a colleague in an unused AC 12 in our dinghy park. His response is, no point, it can't compete with the newer boats. He has therefore acquired a Firefly.
Giles
N3319
[/quote]
1) The Merlins aren't a 'slow progression' - apart from a few tweaked versions of the Tales they've pretty much been one design for 20years. My last club had a significant Merlin fleet and one of the keen helms had both a plastic Tales and an older wooden design, both with carbon rigs and new sails. He always went a lot slower in the older boat. There definitely seems a step change there too and most of the Merlin sailors upgrade to a Tales asap as no other design is really considered competitive.
2) Most AC owners who hold off from coming to event due to the 'don't want to make up the numbers' attitude a) probably wouldn't drive a DB any faster anyway. b) would learn a lot faster if they came along c) find that the class is a lot friendlier to people sailing older boats than in one designs.
3) Minor prizes? Maybe ask yourself why you go sailing - will you only go to an event if you're guaranteed a big prize...?
4) The cost of a new sail for my old Europe came to 3/4 of the price I paid for the complete boat. The single, small dacron sail also cost more than a complete new set of kevlar 12 sails..... Nothing particular to 12s in this phenomenon.
Most of the problem is perception and people not being honest with themselves about their level of sailing. When two of us at Starcross upgraded to DB boats we heard a lot of 'oh, we can't compete with you anymore' from most of the AC sailors - despite the small issue that we usually finished a leg or two ahead in our ACs anyway. In fact as we upgraded about a couple of months apart the one with the AC consistently beat the DB.
Go figure. But any marginalisation is only in your head - ACs are a valid, welcome and often very competitive at all 12 events.
[quote by=Jimbo41 link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1178611316,s=4 date=1178634048]Rick,
Oh, yes, I'll be travelling the 1400km to BW this year....
Cheers!
Jim.
[/quote]
No!!! surely not!! you not coming to BW????? we'd NEVER have guessed!! ;D
Janey
I think there are 2 issues...
I was new to sailing at 38 - I have had a step learning curve and will never be competitive at burton week, whaterver boat I'm in.
People like me don't want a shiny new boat - because we will (quite rightly) be sniggered at in the mode of "who the hell does he think he is?" or "that boat is wasted on him"
The point is that I used to put up with an old beaten up car and a shabby house in my youth, and I have grown tired of doing that, and I have a nice car now and a nice house. I would like a nice N12 that I can be proud of.
I don't have time for the do it yourself option (car loan and mortgage to pay for!) so I would like a nice second hand boat with a nice combi trailer and cover that looks the business.
My point is that a new build is intimidating for a new starter to the class - they want a nice, sorted, second hand boat.
An AC boat would do just fine, with carbon rigg, new sails and a nice combi. One that has already been fully 'bimbled' by an expert in the class. This can be sailed on adjusted handicap at any club and be competitive against RS200 and albacore, and can be taken to open meetings.
I think the AC and DB issue is a lesser issue than the condition of many of the second hand boats on the list.
Phil
N3253 - still looking for someone to do her up (Mike Saul is too busy and Mike Cooke too far away!)
Get out on the water and have some fun too many people are making excuses in stead of sailing, Yhe article I wrote about the Scottish championships was writen to shoe people you coulb be crap and still have fun. for what its worth we have stepped up from a China Doll to a crusader (Ithink you all know that by now) and are going slower than ever if I got a debee the mirrors would be passing me!!!! Por Rohan I think hes looking for a new helm.
By the way mixing my threads as ever the sugar is working fine it was the shoes that had worn smooth on the sand in my China doll. Now I just need a keyboard that works prperly.
I think I may have wandered of the point of the original post but the sad fact is if you cann't buy what you want second hand then you just have to buy new. It is a sad fact of life that people now expect to jump into things and go. that is probably why there are only 90 odd dee bee boats about.
I must go now and get the huskies ready for Wintersett.
[quote by=angus link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1178611316,s=37 date=1179092796]Get out on the water and have some fun too many people are making excuses in stead of sailing, Yhe article I wrote about the Scottish championships was writen to shoe people you coulb be crap and still have fun. for what its worth we have stepped up from a China Doll to a crusader (Ithink you all know that by now) and are going slower than ever if I got a debee the mirrors would be passing me!!!! Por Rohan I think hes looking for a new helm.
But you still keep coming Angus and Rohan, keep it up! In particular as you say its getting out and practising n improving that matters. May get down to watch(!!?) over the weekend so don'y go home early.
Roger
PS has somebody spilt hot chocolate over your key board too?