Centreboard

[martin 1262]

I have a Winder foolish, and the winter is giving me time to sort out the niggles that get on my nerves. So I turn to the 12 forum for help and ideas! The centreboard is extremely difficult to get down and up again, but once It is 25% down it frees up and works ok. It is just a pain to get the the thing down, and back up again when back on shore. I have peered down the slot from inside the boat and outside, but cannot see anything other than it being a very tight fit. I have noted from other posts that some winder foolishs might be a fricton pad, but I cannot see one on mine. I guess the answer is to get the centreboard out from the boat, but don't want to unless absolutely necessary, as it can be a pig of a job. If I have to, I see a nut on the underside of the board, which I assume comes undone.
Any suggesions?

[not a problem (Guest)]

To get the board out roll the boat over, easiest on it’s side with the mast in.  Undo the machine screw in the top of the leading edge of the board, accessed through the slot gasket.  I think you need an alan key.  Try not to damage the gasket while messing with the screw.
 
Once the screw is removed put the board about half down and then push it up into the boat from underneath to remove.
 
Some boats used a brake, a piece of rubber hose screwed into a cut-out in the front of the top of the board, held in with a short piece of keel band and a couple of self tappers.  Simply tighten the screws to increase the friction.  Also use jap tape on the head of the board to remove any wobble.  If done properly no string is required.
If the board is difficult to get up and down the last/first bit the culprit is usually the slot gasket.  Is it damaged and getting pulled up into the slot?  If it has recently been replaced and the glue has been applied too close to the slot that would also explain it.
 
If you need a replacement gasket the guys at P&B can post you a bit that’ll fit and tell you how they do it.
 
If the boat was a 420 I’d tell you that the rig loads were deflecting your now worthless knackered boat and that’s why the board was getting stuck.  I think that those Winder boats are too well built for that to be the issue.

[not a problem (Guest)]

Meant to add that I don’t think the problem is the brake.  If that was too tight the board would be tight at all angles, not just when almost up.  I’d start with the gasket or any obvious crap near the bottom/front of the board or back of the slot.
 
They were always tight at the point you mention as you have to overcome the gasket.

[Crusader 3244]

The centreboard brake on 'Why Can't You?' was not working very efficiently when we acquired it and was a big distraction when it kept riding up, not helped by the shallows of my local puddle.
Slot gasket may well be at fault causing the stiffness and you'll soon spot the reason.   But you may also find that getting the brake to work evenly over the full range may well prove difficult. Almost certainly it was once perfect and even but over time the pattern of wear to the casing from the brake 'pad' will be greater in the middle range.
One tip; if you are going to remove the board then after boat is resting on it's side swing board to half down; using marker pen mark a line accross the board corresponding to the keel band; then on the line and close to both the leading and trailing edge of the board mark  two points (one each) and mark corresponding points on the keelband. When you come to replace the board you can offer up to the marks you have made and the bolt holes should be very close to lining up.
Tip 2; The profile of my board above the casing was detracting from my attempts to visualise what was actually in the water. If you like, use this oppotunity to mark graduations on the board above the casing. 'Set board at 3' is a clear instruction to a young or novice crew.
Tip 3; Rubber hose makes an excellent material to fashion a brake. You try and find rubber hose these days! The modern stuff is all so much more 'plasticky' and useless to dinghy sailors!. I tried all manner of materials and they just do not work so good as the old rubber hose.
Solution; reinforced poly-prop tubing (the clear stuff in B&Q) had good physical properties but coefficient of friction was way too low. So, We took a sort length of bycycle inner-tube that Mrs P had discarded and placed that over the poly-prop. Gather up the excess in a fold and pinch it when attach the clamp plate.  'Works a treat! A squirt of dry lubricant into the casing had it working smooth and even.
Ideally you need a short length of stainlees as a clamp plate to screw through to bear down on the tubing. As wide as you can comfotably fit in the limits of the casing. It's more efficient if the clamp strip is stiff enough not to deform as you 'apply the brake'.
The centreboard has held it's place a treat since. 

...And if the plate should ever become loose again then I'd first suspect a puncture!   :-/

[Antony (Guest)]

Martin,
My boat, 3514, has been like that since new.  They are designed and built to be a very tight fit.  The one thing that is definitely worse than a board that will not come back up is one that comes up when you are least expecting it.  When we come ashore i often have to tip the boat slightly in the water and kick the last bit of board up into the box.
We have so far decided to live with it, i think that the only alternative for our board would be some extensive efforts with wet & dry sandpaper on the fatest bit of the chord of the board.  You will probably be able to see on the board some abrasion marks where it is tighest in the case.  The issue is obviously that if you do this you might end up with a plate that came up!
Even with the early boats, like my old 3431, I do not think that there is much to be gained from letting off the rig tension.  As somebody said these boats are too well built.
Antony

[martin 1262]

Hi, Anthony and guest!
There is not anything fouling it, and the gaskets are just fine, as so Anthony said a very tight fit. It does it whether the tension is or off as is the case at the moment with the boat upside down in the garage!
I can see the abrasion marks as you suggest, which of course isn't great for smooth passge throught the water, so I might rub down a little to smooth off and see what happens this year.
It is reassuring to know I am not the only one with this niggle.
Martin
 

[Kevin]

We had this problem with 3512 when she was new. In fact, it got so stiff that it took Jane standing on the handle to get the board to house itself in the case. We solved it by removing the board, as described by "not a problem" above and sanding with wet & dry the flat head part that remains in the case when fully lowered. DO NOT SAND THE UNDERWATER PART!! Finish it off with fine grade and then apply some good quality boat polish over the entire board. It should then glide up and down but might need the friction device tightening a bit to get it to stay put on a reach.

You will probably need to repeat the polishing annually, especially if you sail on real water with salt in it.
 
Kevin

[martin 1262]

Hi all and thanks for comments and advices. Will follow up the tips given.
Centreboard now out, easy enough job, and I can see some score marks where it been rubbing, so given me an opportunity to smooth things down a bit in the centreboard case and the head of the board. Anthony suggestion may be bang on, ie the chord may be a just too fat and it catches on bit of the case when it comes up.
Dont want to overdo it, as i understand comments about board coming up too quickly, but I have an elastic around the thwart which tucks under front of the board that stops that happening too much.
My worst nightmare this year is giving me a hernia trying to get the thing down and being off sailing 3 months! Yes at times it has been that bad!
I'll keep you posted how it goes
Martin

[Crusader 3244]

V. glad to hear you got to the bottom of it, Martin.
I know it's wavering off the point somewhat,  but with these wide designs and highly profiled and finished boards  doesn't  it make it tricky to climb from water to board in the event of capsize?  Do DBs float higher in the water; I would expect them to, and we know they come up much drier and drain better.They must be tricky?

I have the pre-reqisite fron tank and rear bags in 3244. After a capsize it holds water to just below the casing and I have managed to sail it dry a couple of times. I'd want it to come up drier if I could, but already if we're both in the swim the c/b is a real stretch and very difficult to reach from the water.
Because the boat lies somewhat nose- up,  even if you have the strength left to begin climbing out the board will pivot away back into the slot. The trailing edge bites!  (On) The last memorable day of our season last yr I dunked us in three times (more than one race) on the same gybe mark ( very careless of me, I know!) and by the last I could not have recovered without rescue boat assistance.
Bens' a quick learner, if he has half a chance to scramble over he will, whereas regular form for me seems to be to slide haplessly down the gunnel and into the drink at the stern!   At 35kg it's unlikey that it would pop up from his weight alone!  
Aside from driving more carefully, what could I do?

[martin 1262]

The simple answer is to avoid the capsize!
The more complex answer... The dbs do float higher, I used to have a crusader myself, and I know exactly what its like to capsize, my son and me manged it 6 times at Ripon in 2007, and the reason for this- we were trying to empty the boat in gusty conditions and all we managed to do is bury the bow and go swimming again.. it was this that convinced me a db boat was the answer.. or so I thought.
The Foolish is pretty well behaved although it has a habit of catching you when you least expect. I have capsized a few times when tacking on the beats,because I have not been fast enough across the boat. I have been able to get the boat up again fairly quickly, it is a bit of a climb onto the board, its about 18 inches out of the water but not a great problem. When it comes up I tend to wait 10 secs before getting in, as this lets the water drain out, and it more stable, but as a result the boat floats higher once upright so again it is a bit of a haul up. It exercises your biceps thats for sure. But once we are sorted out we are off again.
I found the best way to drain the Crusader is sit well back to aviod the bow burying, sheet in and catch the gust. Once the bow burys I found the helm unresponsive, which tends to lead to another capsize. 
Overall though I prefer the db boat, it seems better behaved, and if I am careless enough to tip it in, we can get up and going again a bit quicker. Wouldnt change it!

[MikeDay]

DB boats are a pain to right, partly because they float high and partly because everything is so shiny and slippery.  Apart from all the other advice we've had on this site about righting them, the key thing is to fit what have been charitably called 'old man's righting lines' underneath the gunwhales.  Anchor one end of the line under the shroud point and run the other end through an eye bolted to the boat around 60cms back from this point.  Tie a piece of shock cord to this and anchor that at the back of the boat.  The shock cord keeps it from flapping and when you need it, you climb on the board, grab the line and lean back.  The knot in the line acts as a stopper against the aft eye.  This line gives you something to hold on to, more righting leverage and means that you can scoop up the crew as the boat comes up, making the boat more stable.  You then go over the stern to get in.
 
Mike D
N3496

[Phil Brown]

The solution on our D8 to hauling the board up and down and also stopping it floating up was to fit a continuous uphaul / downhaul line as follows.

From the front port side of the c/b case run a 6mm line to a cheek block on the top handle of the c/b.

From there the line goes forward to a s/s lined fairlead on the front starboard side of the c/b case (it should be a through deck block but the c/b case top  sn't long enough when the c/b is raised).

The line goes back underneath the c/b case capping to emerge through a through deck block somewhere near the thwart.

From there it goes through a block on the aft edge of the c/b handle (fixed by a thin line so that it will twist) and then back through a through deck fairlead on the port side of the c/b capping near the thwart.

From there it is tied to a thick piece of shockcord which then goes through a hole in one of the c/b case supports and is knotted off.

A picture is worth a thousand words I know but the boat is down in the boatpark. If I can find a photo, I'll post it.
Anyway, draw it out using the above and you'll get the idea. The effect is to give a 2:1 uphaul and a 2:1 downhaul with enough friction in the system to prevent the board floating up (which it did before) and without having to tie it down which wasn't clever. The shockcord is needed in the system as the length of line required is at a maximum when the board is half up and you need something to take up the slack when the c/b is fully or fully down.

You clearly don't have a problem with the c/b floating up but this system will give you that extra purchase to pull it up or down.

Phil

[not a problem (Guest)]

If you can’t shift it by hand adding string is going to be as useful to you as a trapeze harness.  I agree with Kevin, if this board has ever worked in the past don’t sand the underwater part unless repainting.  I disagree with Kevin about waxing it, if you’re planning on spending any time trying to stand on it.  He doesn’t spend much time on his, so his priorities may vary.

[Tim Gatti]

Tip I got from a DB sailor (even though I don't sail one) was .. try and release the kicker if you know you're going in.  That way the rig won't be powered up when you right her and you'll avoid the tendency for her to sail off without you! Tim