Best positions for control line cleats?

[Alistair Edwards]

The cleats for Catatonic's kicker, outhaul and downhaul are currently located on wooden blocks underneath the forward edge of the thwart.
I am considering changing this arrangement as:
a when the crew is sitting on the thwart on the windward side I am unable to reach the control lines
b Occasionally the crew inadvertantly knocks a line out of a cleat whilst sliding across the thwart
c when I am hiking hard , leaning back in to adjust the kicker control line is not ideal
I am tempted to re-position the control line cleats on the inner face of the sidedecks behind the thwart.
Is this a good idea?

[tonyelgar]

One the beautys of the 12 seems that things like this can be how they work best for you. It seems a little odd for them to be on the fwd side of the thwart. Its common for them to be on the aft side. Having just redone my baggy i ve left them on the aft side so either helm or crew can reach them, they re less likely to be knocked out and its what im used to sailing 200's and 2000 etc at work. I ve seen this system then run to a bungee on the inside of the sidedeck which then runs aft to give it length -  which takes the slack out and holds them at hand  (was on a merlin i think?!?). One good thing to do is scan some other boats similar, failing that some pictures of others. The most important thing is that it works for you though, even if everyone else cant make head nor tails of it!
 
Tony

[Lukepiewalker]

Ah... one of lifes eternal questions... First consideration is how many controls you have, followed by how often they are adjusted. If putting them on the side deck make sure they aren't going to get knocked out by sitting on them. Followed by making sure you can get them to cleat and uncleat easily from all manner of positions. The kicker could go on a swivel in the middle with the end tied to the mainsheet if you were feeling particularly saucy, and assuming your centreboard case has space with the shrouds, lowers, mast ram, jib halyard, and mast puller (you do have all those, don't you...). The central position isn't without it's disadvantages, but a swivel allows adjustment even when sitting in the classic monobuttocked transom position, and a single rather than a double line means never finding that it's all ended up on the other side and you really could do with some adjustment.

Worth considering who adjusts things. The outhaul might be movable onto the boom near the front if the crew adjusts it mostly, or lead back to the helm if you like to tweak it. The downhaul might also be lead to the front for the crew to adjust.
As to elasticated take ups, much thought is required to make sure that there is anough travel to take up slack without having too much tension. And you also have to make sure that the elastic can run freely so you don't get uneven tension.
I suppose the take home message is not about control positioning, or about smooth running and efficiency, but about having as many controls as is possible....

[\'Nut on a short tiller\' (Guest)]

Alistair, Mine came with some well thought out, seemingly simple, colour coded lines that I imagine mirror the original fit-out in 1984. Just possibly, I might not be using them quite in the way the original owner intended. Sometimes they give me grief, sometimes I like the simplicity and accessability. Three are fed to the aft edge of either side of the thwart, One (is it two?) are led to the inner face of the deck just by the shroud. In light airs I spend a lot of time lay over the cleats; in medium airs it is all fine and dandy; and in a blow I am too busy trying maintain status-quo to care!
It dawns on me that in theory at least, it may be possible to split a line and have control at thwart and deckside so it is within reach in a blow. I doubt I would go to those lengths in practice.
But I do wonder about ways to improve the existing set-up because passage of lines in the region of gooseneck really hinders rigging for races. I have missed starts and lost places because of that. (I would not go so far as to say I have lost prizes - the 'nut on the tiller' is responsible for that)
I have spent hours re-threading the outhaul purchase within the boom to balance purchase against the tail of string at the control end and it is still not to my liking. There is no right and no wrong way. What suits you, your boat, your style, and your water(s) is what matters. The opinions of your mates is helpful, so don't rush headlong into something that might not be right, you'll have gained a few more holes. Mock it up first on land and don't be afraid to give time to thought.
When you change to a set-up you like will you share it with us (with pics)?. There is at least one interested party!

[Alistair Edwards]

Thanks for the input chaps. I am halfway to a solution I think.
I have removed all 6 cleats from the forward edge of the thwart.
I discovered some holes on the side of the centreboard case (behind thwart on both sides) so I have re-installled cleats in this position. Outhaul one side and downhaul on the other. So now I have single lines rather than doubles for the outhaul and downhaul.
I sail single-handed quite frequently so I need to be able to make adjustments from the helm position.

Still not sure where to fit the kicker cleats. I do like Lukepiewalker's idea of a central pivoting cleat. I fitted one of these beside the mast for my dangly pole and it works really well. Tying the single kicker control line to the end of the mainsheet might work, but there is a risk of getting my feet in a tangle!

Being able to adjust the kicker control from almost any angle would be good. Having single lines for all 3 controls would also decrease the clutter near the mast.

[MikeDay]

Alistair
My approach in this is to have closest to hand the controls you want to adjust most.  For that reason, the kicker needs to be on the outside of whatever you decide to mount on the thwart.  I wouldn't put it in the middle of the boat becasue you'll need to come in from the hiking position every time you need to change the setting.  I have the outhaul next as I want to be able to ensure it's always to hand in the windy stuff as I reach a mark.  The third control on the thwart is the lowers.  I have the cunningham led to the side by the shroud, and the shroud controls led back and up through either side of the plate case capping in the crew's area.  They are Anne's job.
 
Mike D
N3496

[angus]

On agent Orange the kicker is on a pivoting cleat on the centre board. I find this works much better than on the thwart as I take the end across with when I tack so it is always near at hand. Only problem is it is the same colour as the forestay which is lead back to the same place on other side of centre board. Has lead to a few interesting moments and will be changed as soon as boat comes out of storage.

[angus]

whoops I ment jib halyard not forestay;D

[Alistair Edwards]

Thanks Mike. Your arrangement sounds very good.
However..........I really like the single kicker line/rotating cleat idea, so I have been thinking about the best way to install this set up without installing loads of extra blocks.
 The kicker control line could run back along the full length of the base of the centreboard case to a turning block at the rear end of the case and then up to the rotating cleat mounted two thirds of the way down the back of the centreboard case. This would mean that the kicker control line can be held in the rear hand along with the tiller extension, so when I tack the line would cross the boat with the extension. I think it would be possible to rig a clip on the tiller extension which the kicker line would click into.

With this set up I should be able to adjust the kicker easily from anywhere in the boat (other than when I am hanging off the back of the transom, but that doesn't happen very often on the river).