Nice Ratchet & Discussion of what the members want

[Giles Edmondes-Preedy (Guest)]

[face=Arial][/face]From where I'm sitting (Chipstead) my regular 12 sailing has come to a complete halt as my crew has now grown up and is too large for the boat.

I'm now having to sail an Enterprise, just to fit the only regular crew I can get into it (all up approx 25 stone)

We have an average 11 to 14 Ents out as a class every Sunday morning, most with blokes and WAGS weighing between 23 and 27 stone. We also have Fireflys, Graduates and Scorpions enjoying two handed fleet racing every week. Chipstead is now down to 2 12's both of which sail in the handicap fleet.

People are getting bigger - 12's are now catering for crew weights where upwards of 19 stone is uncompetitive, and, although I stand to be corrected here, I believe that in their heyday average competitive crew weights were higher than they are now.

Looking at other popular classes at Chipstead, and comparing the upper competitive crew weights given in last years Y&Y  classes guide reveals;

Scorpion 159kg
Graduate 152kg
Firefly 145kg

National 12 - 120kg

Go figure, as they say in the states - in my opinion until the 12 stops becoming a class where only Snow Whites seven little helpers stand a chance of being competitive, it will always fall behind boats that are reasonable weight carriers for ordinary couples.

Having said that, if any of the loosely scattered 12's south of London were to come to Chipstead to establish a fleet Bob Murrell will undoubtedly welcome them all with open arms - Bob has proved many times that a 12 is the perfect boat for our water.

Giles
N3319 (awaiting a call from Dozy, Grumpy or another acquantance of theirs to sit in the front...)

[Jane Wade]

You are absolutely right about the weight thing and it kind of ties into Phillips post about crews not doing much.  The upside is you can sail with your kids but the downside is your wife is probably too big!  The all up weight has definitely dropped.

At 60kg I am an enormous crew in comparison to much of the fleet which is very sad really becuase I am not a big person.  A massively contentious idea would be some kind of equalisation method...


Jane

[MikeDay]

I do think that Giles is overstating the weight thing - Dave Wilkins is very competitive with (I think) about 22-23st all up and we are racing normally with 20.5st and feel fine.  The issue is not the weight or the extra sail - but what will get the people who already have 12s to sail more - at any level, from club racing to championships.  If every currently active 12 sailor increased their number of sailing days by 10% next year, we would notice a difference.  What will make that happen?

Miike D
N3496

[DavidW]

Mike's right about the weight thing - for much club sailing,  paticularly on smaller waters you can still be competitive in 12 when a bit on the large side. Today, sailing with around 23 stone, we've beaten 26 other clubmates to win a one day series. I pleased to report that Felix and Lotty came 5th in Baggy Aardvark sailing at around (I would guess) 19 stones. We had a fantastic day's sailing and I certainly didn't get the impression that either Adele or Lotty were bored.
I won't pretend that when I've sailed with 25 -26 stones against the some of the best sailors in the class on open water that I've felt the playing field has been entirely level - but hey both I and my crews have great fun sailing what is such a rewarding class amongst a lot of friends.

I must say that it is not unusual for the 12 fleet at Spinnaker to be seen out all sailing singlehanded - the club allows this, as it does with Fireflys and other double handers - I do find single handed sailing fun - particularly in  breeze, but sailng with a competent crew is better. A few of us at Spinnaker have spoken about whether an informal single handed race might prove an intersting diversion sometime after an open meeting or entertainment at the champs. Singlehanded is actually the only way that I could ever get close to the current two up weights of some of the members of the Fleet!

I'm sure that we do all need to sail at our clubs more - I don't miss many Wednesdays but due to other commitments it's seldom I get there at a weekend. This I suspect is the case with many others.We should also try and pool the boats in an area to a club - I'm sure that there are a number of 12s that are being sailed in handicap fleets around the country where they are the only one - with another one or two doing the same a few miles away - put them all together and you have the beginnings of a fleet with close racing and being noticed - gradually others will come and join in.

That's all for now it's been an exhausting day!

Cheers

David Wilkins
3481

[Simon Nelson (Guest)]

The perenial problem! I have just been arguing with the I14's about not enough opens!

Jane's idea has some merit but has one major problem. If you look at the number of competitive double bottom boats around and spread them between 12 clubs, it means that a lot of people will not stand a chance of winning. Now, in reality, that shouldn't matter as that is teh status quo in even the strictest 1 design. However, the difference is that in a Laser or RS200, everybody believes they are starting with a level playing field. Unless there is a way of leveling the 12 palying field, building strong club fleets will be hard.

I actually believe that the answer might be exactly the opposite. More opens and better socials! The thing that made the class so strong in the 80's and 90's was that youngsters were attracted to the class and stayed, replacing those who were taking time out for children. Anybody remember some of the parties at Pevensey or Whitstable or  22 people sleeping on the floor of a certain small house at Rutland or  .......... (reminising isn't what it used to be!!!) Now, I might be out of touch and there might be great opens and partying going on, but I am not so sure.

At open meetings people don't have the same expectations of a level playing field. They are there for a good sail and an even better social.  trailing around mid to back of a club fleet once a week because your boat isn't competitive isn't a lot of fun.

So, do you try to make it so that one club has vintage boats, one has admiral's cuppers and one has the latest boats? Difficult, because there is no "upgrade path" without changing club.

A good circuit, good socials and great venues The idea almost makes me want to get back in a 12 again

[Mack (Guest)]

Hi everyone,

I have just taken the plunge and purchased a twelve!   Hope to collect it this week! Not new!
I was drawn to the twelve by the class website and your active discussion group. I have been dropping in on this forum for the last few months and it is the passion for the class and the humour that convinced me this was a group of people I would like to sail with! Not least the contributions from your member in the Bavarian lakes!!

I expect to do most of my sailing around Rutland, Pitsford, and Middle Nene and would welcome comments from others who use these waters about their experiences and which is best!

Look forward to meeting some of you in the years ahead!!

Bye for now.

[Jimbo41]

Mack!
Thanks a lot for the positive feedback!
I'm also quite new to the 12s but I decided to buy one because I enjoy what they and the association stands for - fun sailing for all ages and at all levels. That's what we are trying to push - I hope.

Myself with 14 st. and my wife as crew with 11 still have a great amount of fun on the water. I'm waiting for my 9 year old daughter to stop screaming even with a small amount of heel in a blow and then I can enjoy being at a more competitve weight level. However, like DavidW I just simply  adore this class of boat. I could not imagine not having a 12. Even though I regularly crew a Flying Dutchman at regional regatta level - and we are getting good now - I just love the 12 for her responsive and indiosyncratic manner -

[Jimbo41]

- a real tippy, temperamental beasty! (not like the staid, solid FD with its flat steady sailing characteristics, but also exciting trapeeeeeeeze   )

Jim N3130 (Nuttyshell)

[THG]

Some good discussion and input from many folks - but maybe forums like this only get to the 'hard core' of the Class anyway.  A couple of observations on numbers - 04 & 05 Gill series each attracted around 90+ boats but in each case 19 boats qualified.  Of the qualifies the majority are the dBs - usually only 2 or 3 ACs qualify but mnay of the ACs make up the took place in a couple of events.
The Burton week numbers also have been dropping.  I'm sure it will pick up this year for the 70th - would be interested to see who's coming.

From both my personal experience and observations of the Class;

Many (if not most) have childrenand quite often prefer to sail as a family
There seems to be many 'returners' folks who may have sailed as a junior / youth had a break and got back to sailing - often through the 'low cost' AC / ebay route
There are N12 families which seem to have been around for a while and sometime the youth comes through that - but are we attracting other youth sailors?
Doesn't look like we know where folks sail / what their preferences are - if we could put together some soort of database or with the NTOA renewal / handbook show where people sail this could also help to create the Club nuclei (sp??) - although there may be other reasons why people choose one club over another.

Personally I'd like to see more local events - possibly culminating in a regional champs - some classes make one event (e.g. last) non-discardable.  These don't have to be pure racing and some sort of a mix between training and racing maybe needed - but would these be supported by those that want the pure racing?  If we want the Class to continue the depth of knowledge of the top of the Class needs to be passed down - I'm sure many would happily do this and give their time.  Maybe we need folks to 'commit' to attending the new local events to help planning and requesting Clubs to support.

There is not one right answer here and we will never please all the people all the time - how do we formalise this discussion - would tis get discussed at the AGM at BW?  We may indeed already be too late for 2007 sailing calendar planning and maybe not get the input needed from all the membership but not making some changes will see a continual decline (having petrol prices so high doesn't help much!).  Should we even be discussing the format / length of BW?  As mentioned previously we have a history but its up to us if we are to have a future.

Lunchtime rantings over - back to work!

Kean

[david w (Guest)]

Mack

Welcome to the Class - you've made an excellent choice and one I'm sure you won't regret.
Which 12 have you bought?

We look forward to seeing you at some vents soon.

Cheers


David
3481

[Jimbo41]

Oops!

Sorry Mack! Forgot to welcome you to the Class  

Any time you want to come over to Munich, please feel free!!!!  

Jim N3130 Nutty Shell,  a Tigress

P.S. Paraphraseing DavidW, wots yors?

[Peter Sturdgess (Guest)]

Let us not forget the fleet in Wales which I believe stands at two, Seems to me that the relationship between the number of members and the number of active boats is out of proportion. As the other members make clear, the strength of any class association depends upon how many boats are regularly sailing in company. For instance as an outlying member, where may I be welcome should I wish to weekend visit  with my tent and boat in order to sail with other N12's. N1722

[Peter Sturdgess (Guest)]

Further to my previous message, my rating is not of guest, I am a full member and owner of N1722

[Barry]

 Given the pursuit results on Monday at Pitsford why not start the ACs before the DBs at selected opens or even an AC only open meeting or 2 to try and get some of those older boats out of the boat park.

Barry
N3364

[Tim L (Guest)]

Think there's a bit of re-inventing the wheel going on here...

I think Kean and Simon may have the wrong end of different sticks on both number of opens and the significance of AC v DB club sailing.

At Starcross about 18 months ago the club fleet was at it's height - approx 15 boats all AC with up to 8 turning out at a time.  Close racing? No - ability and time to practice are much more significant than a double floor.  

Most of the fleet was made up of owners who if they weren't sailing with their crews had significant family commitments.  If there was one thing that was very clear it was the last thing they were interested in was going to opens every weekend - a few key ones that are well attended is much more attractive.

Having a number of boats didnt lead to close racing - more a series of match races often seperated by legs of the course.  The fleet ability/time split into:

2-3 Novice crews sailing summer only
2-3 Family crews sailing all year but very limited on time for club racing let alone opens
2-4 More advanced crews but still fairly time limited.
2    Regular open circuit crews (though even 1 of these had little time to do events due to family).

When the two fastest crews traded up to DB boats the difference it made was academic as we were already sailing our AC boats well ahead of the next group in most races.  The perception that its the boat age that leads to poor competition is more a perception than fact at club level (the champs is another matter.

More encouragement to do training and fewer big events is (IMHO) what the SW and the class needs as many people never get to grips with what is a challenging boat compared to an Ent etc. and leave the class after only a short period.

Tim
3497