National 12

Congrats to the team on putting together the latest copy of Ratchet.

Per the request from our new awaiting Chairman I thought I'd kick off a discussion.

I'd like to have more opportunity to sail against 12s - I guess there are relatively few Clubs that have a fleet and we seem to be quite thinly spread around.  I've tried to attend a few Opens this year but like many of us have family commitments to balance out.  The soultion may be in our own hands - for example the N12 SW circut consists of;

Bristol     Gill
Avon    
Salcombe    
Starcross     Gill
Salcombe    

Compare this to the South West Solo circuit (which are all one days)
Bristol
Corus
Sutton Bingham
Bowmoor
Salcombe
Spinnaker
Chew Valley
Llandegffedd
Frampton
Teign
Avon
Cotswold
South Cerney

I think there may be 12s at mnay of these Clubs.  How do we get more events so less travelling may be needed for the 'less serious' whilst still making these quite well attended.  Can we share more Opens or possibly just have a seperate start and join in with existing Club racing?  Could the format be changed at some of these events to maybe the the N12 handicaps - again allow some of the older boats a chance to compete.  Would this encourage more boats out to support local small fleets and so show the Class is active and attract new members?  This could provide a useful way of answering some of the techinal questions that seem to come up in the forum where new owners need help setting up boats, swapping gear etc.  Clubs start to plan their 07 programmes soon after the Summer ends so its a good time to see if there are sailors at each Club who could request an event.  To help support this we need to create local mailing lists of owners - this could also help to identify boats not actively being sailed and rotting in dinghy compounds.

The number of 12s is similar to the Firefly / Merlin / Solo (UK only??) but they seem to attact some bigger fleets and more active circuits (IMHO).

Also using the web resources to identify boats / Clubs (the Cherub site has quite a nice database type approach) this could help to promote the fleet and show that we care about the entire Class and its history.

Looking forward to Burton week and some discussions - where can I find a list of entrants for that?  The Fireflies have over 100 enetred for their 60th, Merlins there's a listing of entrants there too.  May encourage a few more out if folks new BW is not dominated by the DBs.

Just a few thoughts  :B lets discuss  ;D

Kean

Kean,


Good point about the SW series. There was a time not so long ago when there were two other events in the series - Saltash and Looe, the second Salcombe event was put in to make the series more viable about 5 years ago. I have still kept in the calendar for this year, but am under pressure to drop it due to lack of numbers.

One thing to bear in mind is the very small number of active Twelves in the South West. We have 4 active boats in Salcombe, one at Saltash, two of three at Starcross, none(?) at Avon, not sure about BCYC and then there are the two boats being finished in my Garage at the moment............... It isn't really enouth of a fleet to warrant a SW Series at present, or am I missing something?

Sorry the elastic broke!

John

Thats my point we have more boats - at least;

1 SSCSC (me) & a Vintage that doesn't sail
1 or 2 at Whitefriars
2 at Chippenham
2 Frampton (maybe more) - Brian Owns both
BCYC - there's quite a few
Evesham may now be empty...

Can't comment on the rest - but maybe if we redefined some of the areas or allowed 'joint' Opens e.g spinnaker could be both Thames & SW at same time.  Encouraging these sorts of folks out with a local circuit may help to get numbers back or else you're right it dwindles down to a hardcore that will travel and the rest sail at local Clubs.

Kean (new ropes on order)

Salcombe active fleet might increase to 5 boats subject to sale of house!

The problem may be that for geographical reasons, those boats that there are are unwilling to travel.  I note that there is a very high quality and good sized Solo fleet at Salcombe, but few of them travel far, especially during the Summer.

How about having a South West championship rather than a circuit, and really work at fostering links with clubs that have 12's rather than those that don't.

How about some team racing?

I was only thinking the other day that you/we could resurect the Yachting World Team Trophy as a 2 boat event at Salcombe, instead of the Autumn meeting.  We could set up short courses at Widegates or Crossways or in front of the club and make it an Autumn weekend break event, now that you have a mast on "Shirley"

Regards,

David
N3461

There's a wider issue here - which is the discussion that Antony's question prompted.  How do we get more 12s sailing more?

The Committee has put in a huge amount of creative effort into this year's 70th anniversary.  This delivered a terrific event at Pitsford and what should be a really successful Burton Week.  There's a shortage of second hand boats and an apparent growth of interest from potential newcomers.  All this is positive.  Yet ... as the coordinator of the Thames Area series, I can report that open meeting turnouts are down at all our meetings so far this year and this seems to be the picture around the country.  I also don't get the sense that people are concentrating on club sailing instead .  Apart from a few notable hotspots, the club fleets remain patchy.  I don't know how NWNW and Salcombe week entries will turn out.

In UK sailing, there are essentially five levels - club, local/regional open meeting circuit, national open meeting circuit (Gill for 12s), regatta weeks (Salcombe, NWNW) and championships.  If we assume no more than 150 12s being sailed across the UK (am I right on this?), spreading them out this thinly is always going to lead to fleets under pressure.

The two answers that usually spring to mind are:
1. get more people into 12s - but the committee has poured energy into this for years and it's hard to see what more we might do.
2. spread the active ones less thinly by reducing the number of events.  While this is happening to some extent by natural selection (we have lost Pevensey this year for example), no-one would want to be in a position to try to kill off one club's open meeting in order to promote another (and this probably wouldn't work anyway).

So where does that leave us?  If there's been one change that I have really noticed over my 37 (!!) years sailing 12s, it is the amount that we all actually sail our boats.  When I started, I and others at Nottingham routinely sailed Saturday afternnons, Sundays all day and Thursday evenings pretty much every week from Easter through to the end of October.  My sense, all these years on, is that for many (including me) our 12s are more often boats of occasion.  We try to cram in many more conflicting demands into our lives and get the 12 out once every third or fourth weekend.  When we do this, we want great sailing - and I suspect that's why the Gill series has been popular.  I've also noticed this year that long term committed 12 sailors, are tending to spend time in other classes (or yachts), presumably for variety and new challenge.

I recognise that for a good reason, Anne and I haven't been out as much this year as last.  Others will have their own reasons.  But - the question, and challenge, remains - how do we get those people who own 12s to sail them - at any level - more frequently?  Understanding that could lead us to higher turnouts all round - and class assured of long term health.  And it's something we have to crack; we are the current guardians of 70 years of sailing heritage and we need to ensure that this Class is handed on in continuing prosperity to the future.

Mike D
N3496

So maybe more one day events - maybe do a bit of training / setup in morning then have races in afternoon?  Should the races be 'formal' races and count for the qualifying series OR should there be events of  amore 'fun' nature where we use the handicaps of the different developments?  Perhaps we set up the series so you have to attend a number of 'regular' opens and a number of 'handicap' opens??

By identifying where everyone is sailing maybe we can provide more opportunities for those that don't want to travel too far can still sail a few events.

I may be needing some regional help so if you want to volunteer from the deep South - would be great.  Sounds like we have some similar needs / thoughts.

Kean

Hi there, thank you for your comments on Ratchet, not sure who the team were - I got some help, mainly from graham, but had to chase up most of the stuff published. Sorry about the article going wonky, not sure what happened there, but will try and get it right next time.
On 12's, we have five regularly sailing at Spinnaker and another four or so in the boat park. I am keen that we get a Gill event next year (PLEASE NOTE!!!) as Spinnaker is a great venue and anyone who says we don't get enough wind is completely wrong.
I will try and pick up on this thread for use in the September Ratchet, perhaps you could do me a favour and track it, turn it into an article and email to me at swalworths@aol.com
Ta very much
Simon

Ok - so I'm volunteering for more work.  Mike I agree with your comments on competing time.  Initailly it would be good to know what boats we have that are 'active' and list out the Clubs being sailed.  This would be a help in maybe re-defining Regions or how to set up Gill events.

I'm quite happy to have a go at putting together a SW regional listing - at least get the Clubs listed and maybe just getting forum replies like this to identify whos sailing where.

I think fewer events are meeting needs of the core but at the expense of those who aren't prepared to travel / commit the time.

Good debate!

Kean

Mike's comments are interesting.  I liken this to the fact that the majority of active 12's are now kept in garages rather than boat parks, and that we used to pick up crews off the beach, now we will only consider sailing with our regular crew.

We havn't sailed at all this year due to pressures of exams, work, house moves and a double stack trailer that makes access to the 12 a real hassle.  In fact I am sure that if I changed the trailer I would have sailed more this year!

The reality is that the 12 has always been a class for transients (except for Bruce), as youngsters many of us aspired to sailing classes with trapezes and spinnakers, we got married, had children and a few of us have returned to the class because they are interesting boats to sail, at nice places and can renew old friendships.  We could also sail them reasonably competitively with our partners or children.

In our case pressures of GCSE's AS and A levels have really scuppered our sailing for the past three years except for the summer holidays, our children are growing up and wanting to do different things, and sailing with the old man is not high on the list of prefered activities.

Fleet numbers of all sorts have been an issue for years, I am not sure what the solutions are, but I do recognize that there was a real buzz of enthusiasm about the class 4 or 5 years ago which seams to have lost some momentum.

I think that the key is to try and get people earlier, hold onto them longer and while we have them get them sailing more often.

The only way to acheive this is to make the class more aspirational (conversation Peacock, Day, Greening curry house Pevensey).  This could be by making the boats more exciting, the socials better, and in improving our percieved position in the national class hierarchy.

I think that the class has to adapt to suit a changing world.  Whilst recognizing that we have a unique history, we need to look forward and less to our past.  We have a number of Holy Grails which actually may be part of the problem, the format and feel of Burton Week is no different to 30 years ago, but with half the boats for instance.

Our biggest problem is that 30 years ago the National 12 class was one of the classes that any seriously good sailor should visit, this status has been diminished as new classes have come along, the types of popular clubs have changed and possibly the greater divide between youth sailing and adult club sailing.

The lack of availability and price of boats is potentially a problem, however there have been several boats that have stayed on the market at 3 to 3.5k which are quite capable of finishing in the top 10 at Burton Week.  These boats offer a much better entry price than RS200's.

I can think of several classes which offer bigger turnouts but are quite frankly lesser boats than 12's, perhaps we should ask why these succeed where we don't.

Alternatively we could do nothing and go sailing with an ever shrinking band of old mates.

Cheers.

David
N3461

Sounds like the start of an interesting and necessary conversation.  I was an avid 12 sailor for a long time attending every Burton Week from 1991 until 2003.  Sailing for me has been hit hard by the arrival of a small person in the family.

Time is a massive pressure with Dave sailing at least two other classes.  One day Open Meetings have some merit in my opinion, easier to find childcare for one day and at least leaves another day to do some chores!  

Northampton Sailing Club (our home club) is currently under going a period of discussion relating to a similar issue.  Turn outs for club racing are good but declining and it is thought this is because they are very fragmented with often no more than two boats of the same class on the start line.  There is campaign to only allow up to 10 classes at the club to encourage a stronger core that will build.  It may not work (it may not happen still to go to vote) but I think it is an excellent idea.  How do we make the 12 one of those classes?

My opinion is that we move the focus away from open meetings for a few years and pick say fifteen clubs around the country to be 12 centres and work hard with them to  build fleets.  When I first began sailing 12s didn't come from a vast number of clubs but a vast number of 12s came from a few clubs!  The Gypsy used to hotly contested.  I think this strategy will be painful in years one and two but bear fruit after that.

Who is going to help me campaign Northampton Sailing Club to ensure 12s are on that list?

Jane W
Caretaker 3468 (sadly really cannot afford a competitive 12 of our own)

Why not have FEWER open meetings - then perhaps 12 sailors would sail more often at their home clubs, and be more visible to new sailors/youth. This class does seem to be averse to handicap sailing, why?

Yesterday - at our annual sailcamp for the youngsters, we had 43 kids sailing. The boats that they were sailing broke down like this:

• 
  oppys/optimists/optibats - for stage 1,2,3 and racing
  toppers for stage 3 and racing
  mirrors for stage 4 (double handed)
  laser 2000's, fireballs & topper Vago for sailing with spinnakers
  wayfarers for seamanship
  afternoon racing was held with lasers, laser4.7, topper, optimists
  

On the Friday afternoon - the kids got out boats they would like to sail and the favorite with the top sailors (14-15 year olds) was the contender.

My point? well - the boats represented were all made available by MEMBERS WHO ARE ACTIVE IN CLUB RACING. many of these same members are instructors at the clubs and were running the courses. I don't see any reason why 12's could not have been used for the stage 2 course - perhaps with a cut down sail depending on crew weight and conditions. If the 12's are absent from club racing, and the 12 sailors are not instuctors at clubs - then youth sailors will not be aware of them as a class and won't aspire to owning one. I'm in the class because my instructor was a 12 sailor. And I saw his boat at the club. I offered my boat for the stage 2 course, but this was not accepted, probably the feeling was it is not a 'youth' boat.

The albacores, RS200's, RS400's and international canoes at the club sail every week (often twice) and only seem to be away at opens infrequently. the albacores, RS200's and RS400's are sometimes helmed by youth sailors. in fact an optimist sailor aged 11, helmed an RS400 to second place in the annual persuit race this year, beating a 15 year old helming an albacore into 3'rd.

There is another point - there is little excitement for the crew in a national 12... Unless it is very windy. As this is a development class, surely something could be done about this - how about a single handed modification? the rs feva, topper topaz etc. can all be sailed in varying rig configurations with different handicaps...

I think Jane's idea is a really good one!

If there is little to excite your crew then you are sailing the 12 wrong!  It doesn't matter what the conditions or the boat - sailing a double hander is about team work and there is always something to challenge both the helm and the crew.  Turn it into a single hander and destroy the class IMHO.

The same can be said for class racing versus handiap, I enjoy sailing against boats to which we are evenly matched to see genuinely if we can sail better.  Handicap racing just has a feeling of inevitability about it.

Jane;

quite possibly not sailing it right!

can't see how single handed would destroy class - esp if you keep the competitions within class two crewed.

it just gives flexibility - i'm here now with a windy, sunny day, and two tired kids, neither of whom particularly want to go sailing. I think the comment about 'picking up crew on the beach' is very telling...

the world has moved on - kids have way more oportunities today, and child protection means you can't be that informal now. this is bound to have a knock on effect.

while we are on sacred cows - what about attaching a genniker? again with another set of handicaps...

philip

[face=Arial][/face]From where I'm sitting (Chipstead) my regular 12 sailing has come to a complete halt as my crew has now grown up and is too large for the boat.

I'm now having to sail an Enterprise, just to fit the only regular crew I can get into it (all up approx 25 stone)

We have an average 11 to 14 Ents out as a class every Sunday morning, most with blokes and WAGS weighing between 23 and 27 stone. We also have Fireflys, Graduates and Scorpions enjoying two handed fleet racing every week. Chipstead is now down to 2 12's both of which sail in the handicap fleet.

People are getting bigger - 12's are now catering for crew weights where upwards of 19 stone is uncompetitive, and, although I stand to be corrected here, I believe that in their heyday average competitive crew weights were higher than they are now.

Looking at other popular classes at Chipstead, and comparing the upper competitive crew weights given in last years Y&Y  classes guide reveals;

Scorpion 159kg
Graduate 152kg
Firefly 145kg

National 12 - 120kg

Go figure, as they say in the states - in my opinion until the 12 stops becoming a class where only Snow Whites seven little helpers stand a chance of being competitive, it will always fall behind boats that are reasonable weight carriers for ordinary couples.

Having said that, if any of the loosely scattered 12's south of London were to come to Chipstead to establish a fleet Bob Murrell will undoubtedly welcome them all with open arms - Bob has proved many times that a 12 is the perfect boat for our water.

Giles
N3319 (awaiting a call from Dozy, Grumpy or another acquantance of theirs to sit in the front...)

You are absolutely right about the weight thing and it kind of ties into Phillips post about crews not doing much.  The upside is you can sail with your kids but the downside is your wife is probably too big!  The all up weight has definitely dropped.

At 60kg I am an enormous crew in comparison to much of the fleet which is very sad really becuase I am not a big person.  A massively contentious idea would be some kind of equalisation method...


Jane

I do think that Giles is overstating the weight thing - Dave Wilkins is very competitive with (I think) about 22-23st all up and we are racing normally with 20.5st and feel fine.  The issue is not the weight or the extra sail - but what will get the people who already have 12s to sail more - at any level, from club racing to championships.  If every currently active 12 sailor increased their number of sailing days by 10% next year, we would notice a difference.  What will make that happen?

Miike D
N3496

Mike's right about the weight thing - for much club sailing,  paticularly on smaller waters you can still be competitive in 12 when a bit on the large side. Today, sailing with around 23 stone, we've beaten 26 other clubmates to win a one day series. I pleased to report that Felix and Lotty came 5th in Baggy Aardvark sailing at around (I would guess) 19 stones. We had a fantastic day's sailing and I certainly didn't get the impression that either Adele or Lotty were bored.
I won't pretend that when I've sailed with 25 -26 stones against the some of the best sailors in the class on open water that I've felt the playing field has been entirely level - but hey both I and my crews have great fun sailing what is such a rewarding class amongst a lot of friends.

I must say that it is not unusual for the 12 fleet at Spinnaker to be seen out all sailing singlehanded - the club allows this, as it does with Fireflys and other double handers - I do find single handed sailing fun - particularly in  breeze, but sailng with a competent crew is better. A few of us at Spinnaker have spoken about whether an informal single handed race might prove an intersting diversion sometime after an open meeting or entertainment at the champs. Singlehanded is actually the only way that I could ever get close to the current two up weights of some of the members of the Fleet!

I'm sure that we do all need to sail at our clubs more - I don't miss many Wednesdays but due to other commitments it's seldom I get there at a weekend. This I suspect is the case with many others.We should also try and pool the boats in an area to a club - I'm sure that there are a number of 12s that are being sailed in handicap fleets around the country where they are the only one - with another one or two doing the same a few miles away - put them all together and you have the beginnings of a fleet with close racing and being noticed - gradually others will come and join in.

That's all for now it's been an exhausting day!

Cheers

David Wilkins
3481

The perenial problem! I have just been arguing with the I14's about not enough opens!

Jane's idea has some merit but has one major problem. If you look at the number of competitive double bottom boats around and spread them between 12 clubs, it means that a lot of people will not stand a chance of winning. Now, in reality, that shouldn't matter as that is teh status quo in even the strictest 1 design. However, the difference is that in a Laser or RS200, everybody believes they are starting with a level playing field. Unless there is a way of leveling the 12 palying field, building strong club fleets will be hard.

I actually believe that the answer might be exactly the opposite. More opens and better socials! The thing that made the class so strong in the 80's and 90's was that youngsters were attracted to the class and stayed, replacing those who were taking time out for children. Anybody remember some of the parties at Pevensey or Whitstable or  22 people sleeping on the floor of a certain small house at Rutland or  .......... (reminising isn't what it used to be!!!) Now, I might be out of touch and there might be great opens and partying going on, but I am not so sure.

At open meetings people don't have the same expectations of a level playing field. They are there for a good sail and an even better social.  trailing around mid to back of a club fleet once a week because your boat isn't competitive isn't a lot of fun.

So, do you try to make it so that one club has vintage boats, one has admiral's cuppers and one has the latest boats? Difficult, because there is no "upgrade path" without changing club.

A good circuit, good socials and great venues The idea almost makes me want to get back in a 12 again ;D

Hi everyone,

I have just taken the plunge and purchased a twelve!   ;D ;D Hope to collect it this week! Not new!
I was drawn to the twelve by the class website and your active discussion group. I have been dropping in on this forum for the last few months and it is the passion for the class and the humour that convinced me this was a group of people I would like to sail with! Not least the contributions from your member in the Bavarian lakes!! 8)

I expect to do most of my sailing around Rutland, Pitsford, and Middle Nene and would welcome comments from others who use these waters about their experiences and which is best!

Look forward to meeting some of you in the years ahead!! ;D

Bye for now.

Mack!
Thanks a lot for the positive feedback! :D :D :D
I'm also quite new to the 12s but I decided to buy one because I enjoy what they and the association stands for - fun sailing for all ages and at all levels. That's what we are trying to push - I hope.

Myself with 14 st. and my wife as crew with 11 still have a great amount of fun on the water. I'm waiting for my 9 year old daughter to stop screaming even with a small amount of heel in a blow and then I can enjoy being at a more competitve weight level. However, like DavidW I just simply  adore this class of boat. I could not imagine not having a 12. Even though I regularly crew a Flying Dutchman at regional regatta level - and we are getting good now - I just love the 12 for her responsive and indiosyncratic manner -

- a real tippy, temperamental beasty! (not like the staid, solid FD with its flat steady sailing characteristics, but also exciting trapeeeeeeeze  ;D ;D ;D)

Jim N3130 (Nuttyshell)

Some good discussion and input from many folks - but maybe forums like this only get to the 'hard core' of the Class anyway.  A couple of observations on numbers - 04 & 05 Gill series each attracted around 90+ boats but in each case 19 boats qualified.  Of the qualifies the majority are the dBs - usually only 2 or 3 ACs qualify but mnay of the ACs make up the took place in a couple of events.
The Burton week numbers also have been dropping.  I'm sure it will pick up this year for the 70th - would be interested to see who's coming.

From both my personal experience and observations of the Class;

Many (if not most) have childrenand quite often prefer to sail as a family
There seems to be many 'returners' folks who may have sailed as a junior / youth had a break and got back to sailing - often through the 'low cost' AC / ebay route
There are N12 families which seem to have been around for a while and sometime the youth comes through that - but are we attracting other youth sailors?
Doesn't look like we know where folks sail / what their preferences are - if we could put together some soort of database or with the NTOA renewal / handbook show where people sail this could also help to create the Club nuclei (sp??) - although there may be other reasons why people choose one club over another.

Personally I'd like to see more local events - possibly culminating in a regional champs - some classes make one event (e.g. last) non-discardable.  These don't have to be pure racing and some sort of a mix between training and racing maybe needed - but would these be supported by those that want the pure racing?  If we want the Class to continue the depth of knowledge of the top of the Class needs to be passed down - I'm sure many would happily do this and give their time.  Maybe we need folks to 'commit' to attending the new local events to help planning and requesting Clubs to support.

There is not one right answer here and we will never please all the people all the time - how do we formalise this discussion - would tis get discussed at the AGM at BW?  We may indeed already be too late for 2007 sailing calendar planning and maybe not get the input needed from all the membership but not making some changes will see a continual decline (having petrol prices so high doesn't help much!).  Should we even be discussing the format / length of BW?  As mentioned previously we have a history but its up to us if we are to have a future.

Lunchtime rantings over - back to work!

Kean

Mack

Welcome to the Class - you've made an excellent choice and one I'm sure you won't regret.
Which 12 have you bought?

We look forward to seeing you at some vents soon.

Cheers


David
3481

Oops!

Sorry Mack! Forgot to welcome you to the Class  :o :o

Any time you want to come over to Munich, please feel free!!!!  8) 8) 8)

Jim N3130 Nutty Shell,  a Tigress

P.S. Paraphraseing DavidW, wots yors?

Let us not forget the fleet in Wales which I believe stands at two, Seems to me that the relationship between the number of members and the number of active boats is out of proportion. As the other members make clear, the strength of any class association depends upon how many boats are regularly sailing in company. For instance as an outlying member, where may I be welcome should I wish to weekend visit  with my tent and boat in order to sail with other N12's. N1722

Further to my previous message, my rating is not of guest, I am a full member and owner of N1722

 Given the pursuit results on Monday at Pitsford why not start the ACs before the DBs at selected opens or even an AC only open meeting or 2 to try and get some of those older boats out of the boat park.

Barry
N3364

Think there's a bit of re-inventing the wheel going on here...

I think Kean and Simon may have the wrong end of different sticks on both number of opens and the significance of AC v DB club sailing.

At Starcross about 18 months ago the club fleet was at it's height - approx 15 boats all AC with up to 8 turning out at a time.  Close racing? No - ability and time to practice are much more significant than a double floor.  

Most of the fleet was made up of owners who if they weren't sailing with their crews had significant family commitments.  If there was one thing that was very clear it was the last thing they were interested in was going to opens every weekend - a few key ones that are well attended is much more attractive.

Having a number of boats didnt lead to close racing - more a series of match races often seperated by legs of the course.  The fleet ability/time split into:

2-3 Novice crews sailing summer only
2-3 Family crews sailing all year but very limited on time for club racing let alone opens
2-4 More advanced crews but still fairly time limited.
2    Regular open circuit crews (though even 1 of these had little time to do events due to family).

When the two fastest crews traded up to DB boats the difference it made was academic as we were already sailing our AC boats well ahead of the next group in most races.  The perception that its the boat age that leads to poor competition is more a perception than fact at club level (the champs is another matter.

More encouragement to do training and fewer big events is (IMHO) what the SW and the class needs as many people never get to grips with what is a challenging boat compared to an Ent etc. and leave the class after only a short period.

Tim
3497

This is my third season in a twelve, second with a design 8 (1st boat a Crusader).

I am a member of Scaling Dam SC (who are hosting the Inlands this Autumn (30 sept & 1 Oct) & look forward to seeing as many of you as possible).We have 6 12's at the club, 2 of which I have not seen on the water (including my old crusader and a Baggy T).  There are the two Simpson boats which are double bottom but I have not seen much of as Mark & Emma have recently been blessed with a third crew and Ian has been working away a lot.

This leaves Phil Cossans and my self. Phil & son Joel are to be seen most weekends getting to grips with their Baggy,  they have only been sailing 2 years or so and this is their 1st boat. They attended the 70th Bash  - see latest Ratchet - and Tynemouth bailer.  I have sailed my Design 8 at Trent Valley which I enjoyed,  the Naburn Paddle, turned out wet despite being a dry day and the Tynemouth Bailer - the best sail all year so far.  

We  have a hard core of four 12 sailors who support club sailing and have encouraged others into the class,  helped no doubt by Marks success which breeds its own interest not only from the juniors but also from adults. We do also travel to opens,  last year Mark won honours in the Northerns and I qualified (13th - last!).  I believe travellers do enhance a classes status /cache at a club.  It is also good for those that do travel,  not only improving skills with more sailing than is available at most club weekends but also just the good social - Trent was a super weekend thanks to Paul,  Richard et al.  I would do more opens if i had a crew - missed 70th for want of crew.

My main problem with a 12 has been crew,  captive crew has been doing GCSE's AS's and this year A's every year we've had a 12.  A regular crew?  what's that?  It is possible to get a crew off the beach but you can get some unnerving combinations - Moi 13+st with 2metre + crew of sim weight sailing for the 3rd time! But I'd rather do that than sail my Laser.  We seem to be fixated a little by weight but as mentioned elsewhere today on the board performance is probably more to do with the steering stick operative than weight (within reason) perhaps i should be so fussy abouut wt.

Rambling again but I think I would Not support a cut in the number of opens,  and as Jane says there is something about sailing against equal opponents not just iso reaching rats...zzzzzzzz

Roger

PS need a crew for Scottish Nationals at North Berwick August Bank holiday weekend.. captive crew going to leeds festival

I'm with Tim on this. Less is more.
I think most club sailors just don't have the time, money or inclination to travel to Open Meetings, even if, in our case, they are just a few miles upstream or downstream. Personally I like doing it for the experience, chance to learn/improve and a change of sailing environment - there is only so much river you can take before longing for a bit of open water -  but I am in a minority of 1 in our club. We have a small but regular fleet of 6 boats, averaging 3 per race this year so far and maxing at 4.
I don't think there is anything that the Class could do to get the other 12 sailors at DSC to travel to OMs, so maybe we should be trying to attract more 12 sailors to clubs, to provide even better racing for the majority of the Class who turn out every week.

Mike N3274 Bassenthwaite calling

Finding crews can be quite a mission, I spent a good couple of years doing the majority (really, I reckon I must have gone to over half the opens on the fixture list one year) with no permanent crew and a different one each weekend...

All that is required is a few networking skills, the 12 handbook and the cheekiness to ask people. Believe it or not, there are people out there who like going sailing!

The one thing that builds fleets is people. There needs to be a key person who is there sailing most weeks, friendly, takes people out in their boats etc etc... Paul T is a good recent example having rescued the TVSC fleet. The problem is that it will take a concerted effort around the country by individuals to build the fleets.

Pure hard work, no easy answer.

Mikey,

You are right, there is no quick fx solution to this problem.

I'm doing exactly that at our club near Munich. There's been quite a lot of interest when they crew with me. It's a problem of critical mass to get a fleet built up and something going though....

As good ol' Winston used to say "KBO"..... 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

Jim N3130. - when are you all coming over?????

I think some of you have missed th epoint I was making - I AGREE I'm not advocating going off doing Opens very weekend - I have a family of 4 boys (good crew distribution weights) and an old house that still needs work on.

I also recognise there are very few Clubs in the SW that seem to have anything like a fleet and building one up is VERY dificult.  The 12 is an ideal boat at my Club - but many folks just go and buy a plastic fantastic Topper type 'family / racer'.  Three may be some that can't afford / would prefer a more tradiitonal boat and the AC is a great way to get a decent boat at a low price.  The upgrade though can be steeper (not sure if this puts folks off).

Yes I'm advocating more 'events' in the SW but we need to look at the format of these - give folks more opportunity to sail together for those that are spreadout (SW is quite large area from deepest Cornwall upto top of Glos) - so maybe having a few more 'local' events would encourage those folks out - even the 'novices' may be OK if they can get help / support from other 12s.  Starcross has done well in providing a good 12 environment - assume this is also down to having keen / supportive people as others have said.

Clearly there's no one answer but first step is to at least identify where we all are and to set up some sort of network and find out what people actually want.  I recognise this forum also will pick up the more active members - hence asking to find SW Club reps.

Kean

I understand what you're getting at Kean but I don't think it's the answer.  The big bugbear for most 'occasional' travellers is de-rigging and sorting out the boat for trailering twice in a weekend or even worse twice in one day for a one day event.  They're more likely to be prepared to drive a longer distance to a big one-off event than to go through all the hassle for multiple small (with uncertain turnouts and socials) events that are all 30mins/1hour down the road.

One of the things I learnt from Merlin sailing friends is that if an open isn't in their silver tiller series it often gets a very small turnout - people will make the effort to go to events if they're guaranteed big fleets and socials.  The 12 circuits could do with expanding the Gill series slightly (8-10 events) and rotating venues more rather than let annual 'traditional' opens drain away the numbers.  Anything that attracts less than 10 boats year in year out should be culled - or at least only held when it's selected as a Gill Series venue (going to upset people here.... :) )

With regards to club sailing - part of it is cyclical, the 12s appeal to many parent/child crews so fleets are often transient as kids grow too big and parents move on to other classes.  Salcombe was big 7-8 years ago, then Saltash and Bristol, then Starcross.  In each case the kids have outgrown crewing or gone off to uni so the fleets disappear.  The other side of things is visibility - not so much hard work as there simply being 1 or 2 good sailors who can fly the flag at the front of the club fleet (showing that the class is competitive on handicap) and who have the time to chat and encourage new owners.  This an area where the class always falls down  - as has been mentioned above most of the good sailors keep boats at home and rarely club sail so your prospective boat buyer may not even know that the class exist at their club...

Tim

The other issue is whether the problem is not with the National 12's but more to do with club racing.  I can think of halcyon days when club racing in many classes was very strong.  I have a personal theory that the worse the venue the stronger the club and ergo class racing was.

When the big open water clubs came along such as Queen Mary and Datchet, they drew away some of the better sailors and attracted new ones, however none of these offered the tight racing and atmosphere or a smaller venue, such as Henley or in my case Aldenham.

I am also unconvinced that the current youth structure successfully feeds youngsters into our class or any other non-international classes.  Lets face it most of our youth (of not all) are second generation 12 sailors and this is also the case with Merlins.

So in my view, if you want to address this issue, not only do you need to turn around the trends in 12's but also in the club racing scene.

I have absolutely no doubt that the key is an enthusiastic class captain and a nucleus of keen sailors.

There is no doubt that easy come easy go applies in this case.  Tim has rightly identified the key problems of getting and keeping a class going at any club, and unless the club is steeped with 12 connections and several generations of 12 sailors, such as RHYC or TVSC it will be hard to keep going without people to keep any momentum going.

A couple of years ago I got involved in an RYA National Class/Club Racing initiative, the idea was to get behind classes that met some pre-defined quality criterea and promote them in the same manner as the RYA Youth Classes, this in fact was the quid pro quo that has got us voting on the ERS/ISAF rules format.  A lot of active dinghy sailors put a lot of work into coming up with a framework that would have been good for clubs, class racing and sailors.  Unfortunately the whole scheme got kicked into touch by the RYA Council, apparently due to pressure from the Youth Classes which might have failed to meet our criterea.

David
3461

I think you have really hit the nail on the head!  The RYA / Youth Structure is totally unsupportive of classes such as ours.

I spent my 'formative' 12 sailing years at Up River - which in its heyday had probably up to 20 active boats - one of the worse places to sail in the country! Did we care, no because there were plenty of us so the racing was really good.

So far the discussion seems to be pointing to:
Encourage our own children into the fleet (along with their friends!)
Sail at our clubs a lot more!
Build the Gill series.

Jane

Very nervous about Burton Week having hardly sailed at all in two years and bringing novice helm with me!!!!   ;D

I think club sailing is the key to promoting the class.  The best way to advertise a class as beuatiful as the National is to see it sailing on the water at your local club.  That is what prompted me to join/try and join the class! When I get a 12 eventually it will make 2 at the club which hopefully might make people consider the boat when making their decision. seeing boats regularly on the water avoids the questions like 'what is that baot with an 'N' on the sail?'

If the open season started with friendly local meetings aimed at trying to get novice/non open meeting sailors involved and then moved on to the gill series maybe you might draw out a few more as they realise d that it is not all about winning etc  ;) (or is it?) Ii think that local friendly racing might  work well.  Even if it is just informal invitations to sailors at local clubs.  

Jon

"The RYA / Youth Structure is totally unsupportive of classes such as ours." - I thinks its worse than that, it's unsupportive of pretty much all non-youth club and class activity period.  Maybe good for producing gold medallists but not good for getting people into the sport for longterm enjoyment. :(

Jon - I think 'informal invitations' are a great idea but 1) its something you don't need the class to organise and 2) its more difficult than it may seem:  I tried to run informal training at Starcross on quite a number of winter weekends but it usually failed to attract any of the club 12s (so they weren't even having to trail their boats anywhere) though quite a few 400s and Lasers would turn out...

If anything the big events are less about winning than the small ones - you're more likely to find somebody else of a similar level to yourself to have some good racing against.  The small events often just fall into a regular pecking order relating to sailing ability that just repeats in each race - not really much fun...I can never understand the 'I'm not good enough to go to a big open' mentality, you only learn by going and getting stuck in.  And you'll probably learn a lot faster and have a lot more fun :)

Tim

It is easy to say that when you have done them before. But you are trying to get the non travellers travelling and for those that have never done an open meeting before an informal trip to another club is a lot less daunting. At least it would be for me.  I would sooner travel 20mins down the road to find I am crap than travel 4 hours to devon to find the same thing!!  

I do agree in principal though that you are more likely to get someone with a similar boat and ability at a bigger meet.  For people coming from other fleets though they  will not realise this until they have tried it. viscous circle  ??)

Take for example a standard club, maybe 2 nationals out each week. you organise an informal meeting say invite 2 other local clubs and get another 4 boats turn up.  You have 6 nationals out at your local pond maybe organise an extra race to make it worth there while coming, and have a bbq after and a few drinks afterwards.  ( all very idealistic i know but bare with me!)  Surely people at your club are going to want to join in that kind of thing and can convert those enterprise sailors into N12 sailors?!

Enough dribble from me,
Jon

Again Jon it's a wonderful idea and if you can make it work then you should write a ratchet article about it! - I spent 3 years sailing on ponds in Birmingham and my abiding memory of that is how set-in-their-ways most of the club 12s were.  They certainly wouldn't consider travelling to an event even 6 miles down the road, despite repeated attempts in encouraging them.  I think the informal idea perhaps only works if you already know the other crews very well and it's more of a get together of friends - it's often the open circuit regulars who know people from other clubs well enough for this to happen.

'It is easy to say that when you have done them before' - Yeah, but we all had to start somewhere - I started off crewing for my girlfriend at the time and she thought I was cruel making her go to Bristol, Salcombe and Burton Week as when we got there we knew so little that we often finished a leg behind the next boat (if we finished at all...) and fell in on virtually every gybe!  However we made some good friends with other sailors struggling round at the back which made it worthwhile and found that when we went back to club sailing we were learning faster than just staying at home.  The bug bit for both of us both in competition and in being involved in the class life.  

The reality is that learning to sail a 12 (or any boat) well takes a fair bit of hard work and the big step between club and open level has a lot more to do with practice (i.e. being prepared to get it wrong and look silly :) ) than with any equipment advantages (plenty of slowly sailed double bottoms around...) despite what many people like to believe.  

If you invited the same boats from local clubs along to a big event (and there'll be at least 1 within an hours drive of where you live throuh the season) you could share the logistics and accomodation and you'll have more people on the same level to sail against while being involved in a much bigger social and more opportunity to learn as a group - more fun for everyone?

Tim

It seems to me that much of the growth in the Class currently is from people with a similarish background to me - and this is reflected in the demand for recent ACs.  These are the folks that we need to support and encourage to become active.  The ACs although make up the largest numbers account for around 4-5% of the Gill turnouts (exception 70th).  Although there are special AC prizes maybe wer'e still not hitting the mark with what is needed.  The 70th event seems to show people will be willing to travel and as commented before maybe we need an annual N12 'rally' to get folks together.  realistically growth is not going to come from yoof sailing - but once the yoofs mature they may want something else.  One issue though is how to persuade 'returners' to get a 12 vs say an RS or Topper type 'low maintenance' has 'sporty' extras.  We are somewhat of a niche but if all us niches sailed there would be lots of Ns around.

Current conclusion currently seems to be maybe a couple more Gill events - can these be held at 'traditional' locations (such as Trent) so the ACs will feel less handicapped.  At the local / Regional level possibly add more events (but each area needs to determine what it can support) - these don't have to be traditional Open type format.  If we can get a few more folks hooked on the 12 through the low cost AC route then hopefully they will develop and possibly aspire to the DB (not that there's anything wrong with an AC (except bailing)).

We can keep discussing or get out there find the people / Clubs and start to find out what they actually want out of their Association.

Are we doing enough still to promote the Class - almost weekly now the Fireflys are touting their 100+ at the Nationals - why aren't we??  The Firefly sailor may also be in a similat situation as the 12s - how come they 'seem' to be doing better (all subjective!).

Kean

I am just off for a week of research on some of these subjects.  Do not worry, the committee do read these postings and are very aware of the issues and very welcoming of new ideas.  

For what it is worth it seems to me that the main issues can be boiled down to:

1.  Not enough clubs with enough 12s active to fleet race.
2.  A widened division between the class of DB boats that live in garages and go to opens and BW, and the class of 'classics' that club race on handicap.  This is especially important given the historical progression that we all made from old and uncompetitive boats into newer models as we improved, aged and got richer.  It is also important because what the NTOA can do might not suit both the consituents of the membership.
3.  There was a 3 but I have forgotton it, probably the point that Mike Day made about how we all sail less.  I think that ageing is an issue here too, in that I and most of my 12 saililng mates were certainly more likely to sail 12s every weekend when we were younger and had less ties (I mean children).

I am looking forward to Burton Wk, but do not anticipate spending a lot of time at the AGM on these issues as I do not think that there is necessarily enough of a cross-section of the class present.  I will obviously be happy to discuss anything and everything to do with the class at the bar with a pint.

Antony
N3484 (oh and Chairman of the NTOA if I get elected)

I think Anthony has hit the nail on the head but I would expand on it a little more.

There is a good reason those who do opens keep their boats at home rather than at a club. Convinience. And the reason they don't club sail. Inconvinience! The chore of unpacking and packing up is bad enough for a weekend of sailing but for a morning or maybe, at best, a day of club sailing and it really takes too much of the fun out of it.

However, I remember when I did the circuit that I was also a member of various different clubs so that when there wasn't much on, I could go sailing. This was not to fill in the odd weekend but more like Autumn, winter and spring series. I did those at Aldenham, Up River and RHYC. Why did I bother. Because sailing is like a drug. The more you do the more you want. Therefore, I believe that to attract the open meeting boys and girls into club sailing you need a stronger open circuit.

If you are used to sailing 3 weekends a month and then don't sail for a month, you get really edgy! Ginette used to kick me out of the house and force me to go off sailing somewhere. Now I am out of the habit.

And, IMO, it works well. If hot shots in new boats were always at the club, people with "classics" would get fed up. However, occasional or seasonal appearances from the hot shots enhances the racing and people do not get upset at being beaten by what they might believe is a better boat.


I guess what I am saying is that a strong open meeting circuit and a strong club scene are not mutually exclusive and both need to be developed

So, Simon - what do we have to do to persuade you to get back into the class we know you love.  The new boats are fantastic, the racing's as good as ever ... how about it??

Mike D
N3496

What we actually need are some Class 'Nannies' to look after the small people during the sailing hours and then to attract the younger generation in the evenings.  The double benefit of the Nannies had a big impact on the attraction of the class to many of my 'mates' when I was in my teens/early 20s!

Brilliant idea Jane - any volunteers?

There is one thing for certain -- a Nat 12 owner sailing a solitary existance  in Wales is of no interest to the subscribers of this thread.

A cry for help if ever I heard one!!!!!

The thing with message boards is one post always seems to get overlooked.  Doesn't mean you aren't of interest to any one else, just sometimes the conversation goes in one particular direction.  If you want a point addressed and don't think it is being covered in the thread start a new one.

Every 12 sailor is valued - no matter where they sail.  

Jane  

Hear hear Jane!!!!!!!!

Jim N3130

An interesting topic and as i'm one of the youth i suppose i should comment. I think the decline in club sailing is large problem when attracting new blood into the class. I was first attracted into the 12's at Saltash by the likes of Gill Moore, John Murrell and Tim Laws who all put a great deal of effort into both putting up with us and getting us into the boats. This was further helped by the efforts of certain chairmans who came along to training events etc.

In regards to one day Vs two day events. I would be less inclined to travel a considerable distance for a one day event.

I particulary miss the days of the SW Series as not only was it good practise and racing but the local class socialised.

On the social side of things it would be nice to go back to how it was when i first started.  Saltash sausage sizzle at porthpean, Meds hilarious drunken prizegivings at tenby, Brownie lecturing the youth on how to be responsible with slurrrrrred words of wisdom, Graham well....being graham.... The older generations dancing and joing in with the team games.

I kno that kids have now arrived on the scene which makes things considerably difficult, bring on Janes Nanny idea!!

Northampton was an improvement on the social side of things with many faces back dancing again (shock horror!!) but there still a fair amount of sciving going on.

I'm not going to mention any names but i also think there is a slight attidude to the youth in the 12's. I mean i remeber some instances at northampton being completly ignored or brushed passed as if we werent standing there. This is not true with all members as the majority have a lot of time for us.

I have also noticed in event reports there isnt always a mention of how the youth did at that event, however this has improved slightly this year. Niether is there a trophy to be won in the Gill Series. I know the prizes are gill vouchers but it would be nice to have something to display etc.

Now in regards to youth at the nationals a few old faces will be appearing this year bringing the number to 9 (not including the johnsons, adsetts). I'm sure we wont mind if the powers to be would like to have a chat to us.

Nigel asked me if i'd like to run the team games and i agreed so lets have a big turn out!! I am also preparing the youth views for you antony, sorry its late but ive been busy with the new boat.

Nathan

Peter

Having trawled back through this record (i think) thread I've found your question - sorry it got overlloked.

The answer I'm sure is anywhere where there is a 12 Open meeting, championships or fleet within a Regatta - also a good number of sailing clubs where there is a fleet - pick your destination and give the club class rep a call. I can't think of any 12 fleet likely to turn you away or not take an interst (though camping might prove a bit tricky at Ranelagh come to think of it!). We're a friendly bunch really.

Cheers

David
3481

As i am about to be made redundant :'( (aaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrhhhhhh) I have just spent most of the morning working my way through  this thread (hope my boss han't taken a sudden interest in national 12s or there goes my refference). Any way to the point. I sail at loch tummel which did have a strong 12 fleet once upon a time, before I was a member. Last year none this year me.
Where have they all gone? Well generally I think they have all grown old and gone into keel boats or retired. Yoemen and 15 sailers keep comming up to me a saying I used to have one of these (Its a china doll by the way so more state of the ark than art).
The problem is that the younger gereration have been suduced by spinnakers trapezes and plastic, Thinking this equates to fun rather just concentrating on sailing well and fast.
People also now expect to have every thing done for them, the idea of fitting aboat out to suit themselves seems to be a concept that is beyond most people these days. Much easier to get an RS off the shelf and bend to fit.
On the subject of crews, when i first started sailing there were much fewer single handed boats about pre lasers and toppers and people gained experience by crewing. now everybody expects to jump straight in the blunt end, part of the effect of this is people don't know how to set up boats so need somthing like and rs where they are all the same.
On the subject of travelling, I went to my first 12 one this spring, I was a little bit worried how my old boat would be recieved and also although I started sailing a very long time ago I have had some very long gaps so I am not very good, but i needn't of worried, everybody was very helpful and friendly and although we did come last we where by no means out classed (Its an important job propping up the rest of the fleet) and we learnt a lot.
I have just realised how long I have been rambling on and no answers just a few of the problems.
And Peter get out there and go to a few opem meetings I am sure you will get a great reception and have a great time.
to the rest of you sorry for ranting on for so long I obviously have nothing better to do. :X

DavidW, Jimbo42, Jane Wade.

I owe you  all an apology in that I have not responded to your postings.  I have been responding to a new thread opened and dealing singularly with my point, I recommend you view it.
 
David, I think what you are avoiding saying, is that there is not a N12 fleet in Wales.

Jimbo, Me, extol the beauty and virtues of the Pembrokeshire coastal waters, you  surely must be joking. N1722 is as  stated in the handbook, manufactured by Jack Holt in 1959. Major characteristic appears to be steady in relation to other designs but neverless nice put together. New name FLY.

JaneWade, The "youngsters" in this area are telescopic visioned towards the likes of laserand little else, if there is a future for the class  in Wales, it is as a "vintage"class.

Oh Dear I nearly overlooked Angus.

I've got a better  idea, Its to rescue redundant  N12's into ownership that will hopefully form a  nucleus of a regenerated fleet in West Wales if you  know of any rescueable craft please let me know. I  will  then do  all I  possibly can recover  them and ensure  that they get good homes and sailing in one of the best sailing venues in UK.

Seems this thread has now run out of steam - I'll try to put together some sort of summary / view for the next newsletter.  nathan - I'lll leave out a yoof view.  Also I don't feel we covered much of the Vintage side of the fleet or the pure 'cruisers'.

Kean
3339

On the subject of getting youngsters into the class, we have first hand experience from the 405 class that many parents of kids coming out of oppies and toppers etc would not even consider the class for the sole reason that it wasn't an rya recognised class.

[quote by=Kean link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool,m=1154085031,s=58 date=1155737212]Seems this thread has now run out of steam - I'll try to put together some sort of summary / view for the next newsletter.  nathan - I'lll leave out a yoof view.  Also I don't feel we covered much of the Vintage side of the fleet or the pure 'cruisers'.

Kean
3339[/quote]

Why leave out the youth view?? Is what we think not important?

Nathan,
I think that what Kean meant was that he would leave the 'youth view' to you, as you told him you were already working on it!  Nobody would claim that attracting more youth into the class is anything other than a priority.

Antony

Ah okay i took it the worng way! Sorry