How long is your tiller

[angus]

At Rippon in the rather gusty conditions I found I was having some problems pointing Agent Orange in the right direction. This was not due to boat heeling and rudder stalling (there was a we bit of that as well). It was because I could not get enough leverage on the tiller to move it. I was wondering if my tiller is too short or my rudder too big or am I just useless. I compared my tiller to a couple of handy boats and it was about 3 inches shorter than Wendy wind blows and about 6 inches shorter than Stumpy's. It is about 51cm from front of stock to tiller extension.
I think I have tree choices, longer tiller smaller rudder or learn to sail better using the sails. I would be interested in peoples thoughts and lenghts of tiller (if thats not too personal). Does an inch or 2 make much difference? I think the way the Northern circuit is going people would prefer it if I did one of the former:o

[Jeremy C]

Just measured our tiller for you- happens to be in the sitting room at present and it is a winder tiller and stock and measures 630mm from end to pivot point of the pintels. Fine to steer with in a blow provided the boat is flat!
 
Hope this helps

[johnk]

Check the rudder rake. The further aft the rake is the higher will be the tiller load. If you can rake the rudder further forward you will greatly reduce the tiller load.
Obviously with sufficient forward rake you can have zero tiller load. Remember large rudder steering angles mean drag!!!

[Gareth (Guest)]

Just a thought on rudder rake angles.  You can make the rudder loads lighter by raking it forwards, even slightly under the boat. The big disadvantage of this is you loose the feedback of how flat your boat is.  Vertical rudder and a flat boat is the way forward, raking the rudder forward masks the symptoms but doesn't fix the problem.
Gareth
Bicycle Clips N3162

[FuzzyDuck]

Angus,
Having read your email I was in the shed today so I measured mine (!!). 610mm pintle to flexi joint.  But I did have it lengthened by 25mm a few years ago.
However I must agree with Chris, I found my boat very unbalanced a Ripon, and yet at the Nationals it was stable as anything in similar wind strengths.  I think you should try it on open water, in wind first without the special Ripon 30° F6 wind shifts.
Simon  

[John Meadowcroft]

mine is 630mm from the pintle to the middle of the radius formed by the bent flexi joint.
John

[angus]

Thanks guys It does appear my tiller is a bit shorter than most but another possible explaination occurs to me from your comments, It is just possible I did not get the rudder fully down at ripon. It is tricky to do as very sticky and boat fills up with water very rapidly while doing it, combined with the gusts at Ripon I may just of rushed that bit.

[Derek]

 
 
I've just seen this rather old thread.
There may be a reason for this.
If someone copied the original tiller length....
Agent Orange was mine originally and I have always sailed with a fairly short tiller and a long extension. The reasoning being that when the loads are really high, (down wind in waves when it is really windy), you are likely to be sitting behind the tiller extension joint. In these circumstances, the longer the tiller, the narrower the angle between the extension and the tiller and the less levereage you have since you are holding the tiller extension in the hand nearest the transom and also nearest the centre-line. A shorter tiller actually gives you more leverage.
That was the idea anyway..
cheers
 
Derek
3510

[angus]

Found what was causing this problem at the Scottish Championships; If the rudder isn't properly cleated when travelling at high speed it lifts slightly and it doesn't take much to start causing problems.

[Crusader 3244]

Hi Angus, we're glad you got to the bottom of it. But you made us all self-conscious in the process!

Yep, Angus, lifting rudder at Annandale forced my retirement from R6 and cost me 6/7 points.
 I simply could not push the tiller away to salvage a windward broach on those breezy broad reaches. Oddly, this was not a problem for us at Ripon. Stock and rudder came supplied with a pin. I recognise now that pin has a purpose and it is going back on!  But at home water pinning the rudder can result in 'parked on the bottom syndrome'   So I ditched the pin and fitted a bungy downhaul.

May take fixed rudder to TBYC so TAKE NOTE ALL AND STAY AWAY WHILE I AM LAUNCHING - IN YOUR OWN INTERESTS!  

[Matt (Guest)]

I wonder if there is any mileage in have a long tiller, with more than one attachment point for the tiller extension ..... I share the tiller and stock with my cherub so Its a little on the long side (I don't suppose that is a common problem). None the less a longer tiller helps you sit further forward in light winds which is very helpful in the older designs.

[Lukepiewalker]

A longer tiller also takes up more cockpit space... can't win really can you.
I have also suffered in the past from the bungee downhaul syndrome, maybe potentially better in agroundy running conditions but the potential for it working it's way up at speed isn't worth it in my experience.
There's always those clamcleats with the swivelly bit that are meant to allow the rudder to kick up.
Or you could use a plastic or wooden pin (did anyone say golf tee) which would hopefully break under aground runnage but no in normal use.
Failing all of those a downhaul rope either thin enough to break in case of ground-rudder interaction (bit of a tightrope that one though), or at least a rope with a bit more boingyness (ie not Kevlar, Dyneema, or Vectran) so it might absorb a bit of the impact in stretch.

[John Hugo]

I find a short tiller with a I.200 long extension allows me to get far rorward in light weather.
I have found that a rope down-haul on the rudder works well, and the type of clamcleat (to which Luke refers above), normally releases the down-haul if the rudder blade grounds.   My rudder is a very tight fit in the stock, so it does not release when grounding at low speeds.   So far, only very minor abrasion has occurred to the blade tip.    I can't find a model number or an illustration of the releasing clamcleat in catalogues, so perhaps they are no longer available.
John, N3475
     

[John Hugo]

Correction.   The Auto Release Rudder Cleat is on Page 89 of the P&B Catalogue: price £10.34.   I need to wear specs to read.
John

[mutt]

I've just fitted a daggerboard rudder to apple turnover. Thought that might make a good compromise for grip in high winds and slipperyness in light winds with it 30cm up. Can also sail with it high in shallow water but that would have to be for the whole race which not  might be the best plan.
Matt