Stabilizing a Crusader

[Iain]

Hello Everyone,
I am new to sailing and have recently got a N12 .....Crusader Type......for me and my 8 yr old son...The boat seams very tipy / unstable, I realise I am sailing the boat on inland waters which have gusty winds which does not help.
But I am considering putting 2 x stabilizing strips on the bottom of the hull approx 6" either side of the centre line.
The strips would be approx 6 foot long and made from 3" x 3" L shaped pvc
Has anyone done this before or has anyone got any other ideas or is this is daft idea!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks, Iain
 

[philipcosson]

Get out in some benign conditions and practice - I thnk you will find the first 20 degrees are alarming, but it is actually hard to tip more than that unless you are doing something very silly. confident corrections only when required (don't panic and over correct) should get you sailing - if not very elegantly.
I basically learnt to sail in a Lark and then an N12 - these are not very conventional first boats, but the responsiveness of the hull teaches you quite quickly, and although I'm never going to be a good sailor, i'm much more competant than I would have been if I had learnt in a tank like a wanderer or GP14
Phil

[Leave (Guest)]

Not wanting to be too negative or patronising, but yes it is a daft idea.
 
[face=Times New Roman]Now trying to be a bit more helpful.  Your 12 is relatively wobbly compared to some other boats because it lacks form, or buoyancy, stability compared to some other designs like an Enterprise for example.[/face]
 
Without knowing what you think your going to achieve it’s difficult to say exactly why your idea is bad.  I’m guessing that you think your boat is ‘skating’ around under you?  This can happen, usually on a run when we put the centreboard fully up to go fast.  If we keep the board down it’s not a real problem.  So my suggestion is to use the centreboard to avoid this ‘skating’, because it works.
 
The other thing you may be trying to do is add form stability, but I can’t see how your suggestion will effectively do that.
 
Not trying to be patronising but the problem is probably the way you’re sailing the boat.  I’m guessing you’re healing and broaching in the gusts, and the boat falling over on you in the lulls.  Upwind you need to ease the sheets and pinch up in the gusts and move in in the lulls.  Downwind you need to free off and ease in the gusts and head up and sheet in fast in the lulls.  If you sit their clinging to the sheet it won’t work.
 
The good news is it’s quite easy to pick up, thousands of people have.  I do appreciate it’s harder when you’re starting to sail with a younger child.
 
Come along to some class events or training.  There are lots of people who can help you and give you tips.  More importantly you can see what other people do.
 
So leave the plastic at B&Q, all it will do is make the boat harder to tack because it’ll want to go in a straight line.

[Bigamist (Guest)]

Hello Ian,
Congratulations on joining the ranks of us 12 owners and especially so for picking up a Crusader.
You don't say where you're based or which is your home club. The chances are you will not be that far from other 12 owners who like nothing better than to meet up with others and discuss any topic under the sun.
Most f us are a vain lot whose preferred choice is to talk 'twelves'
After some years away from sailing I only acquired my Crusader late last year. I agree, the first impression is that they are 'tippy'

Before long your relationship with your twelve will be as close as is with the preferred woman in your life. At least as my present wife frequently suggests that is the case; Apparently, I give more attention to 'that bloody 12! than ....... ..... ...... .....

Your Crusader was once at the forefront of thinking and technology in small performance dinghy development. Sticking things to her bum in middle age lacks dignity, and risks compromising the integrity of the hull. She needs to be kept dry with a good layer of paint and minimal fittings to the outside of the hull.

The 12 is a sensitive indicator of sailing ability. You seem the adventurous, 'my glass is half full', type so remain positive. In effect, you have booked yourself on an accelerated course to transform your ability from 'beginner' to intermediate', and with the potential to progress to advanced. 12 owners are a friendly, generous lot ranging in ability from intermediate to world class. Few remain beginners for long. They can offer lots of tips.

I expect you hope to gain some 'damping' effect from the proposed additions. I think you might, but in an alternate sense .. !

The best damper you have is the biggest of the two sails. Think of your new boat like a boisterous puppy. There's plenty of potential for some fun, but it has to be taught to be sociable and behave well on a lead. Your twelve has a collar and lead; the collar is the tiller, and the lead is the mainsheet. Dog training classes are more about passing on knowledge and skill to owners so they in turn can train their dogs. Well intentioned advice won't be lacking from this lot!

But do think of your 8yo. You both need to learn a bit about boat dynamics and control, and additionally he has to (his view) trust his life in your ability. Consider if some time learning together in a borrowed GP or something may help. Intentional capsize practice close to shore will be good for you both. Sailing a swamped Crusader is a skill in its' own right. The first occasion you successfully sail one dry will rank as a significant 'rite of passage'. If you have access to club run courses for juniors then get your boy booked on one soon. If if your son recognises boat skills for what they are, he will understand his part in taming the beast. One hairy moment can be sufficiently offputting to a young 'un stifle their interest.

If you are able to get a long to any open event near you you will likely bump into some of the many parent child teams.  Why not pass by Thorpe Bay in two weeks time. On the 'Burton Thread' that is front page on this forum why not enquire of Kevin Iles if it is ok to camp over for a night or two irrespective of event entry?
Perhaps the ropework may seem a little complicated? Give time over to getting familar and tidy. Centreboard brake must do its' job and rudder must stay down.


Twelves become an obsession, before long yours will be. One word of warning. There is every danger you and I may graduate to becoming 'Polygamists', like Mssrs. Herring, Chadwick, Gatti, Turner et al.  with a 12 to suit every occasion.   What are we like?

[chopper]

Hi ive returned to 12s after several years away and came back to a crusader to sail with my 7 year old son and was surprised how stable the crusader was compared to my last 12 PAWS it is tippy but only up to a point like previous replys have said but it does stabilize when its up on its ear doesnt win races that way but better than putting lumps underneath
kindest regards paul
if you need any advice feel free to give me a call on 07960 874365

[angus]

Hi Ian I am guessing you have bought my crusader 3208. I would strongly advise against sticking anything to the bottom. My advise is to go out in easy conditions to start off with and just keep at it. you will be suprised how quick you get the hang of things. And if you are the Ian I think you are I definately recommend you come to tummel week as beides myself (possible not the best person although I am pretty good at showing how not to do it) there will be a least on good 12 helm there plus quite a few people who used to sail 12s who like nothing better than to tell you how it should be done. There is always plenty of time at tummel week and it has a very relaxed atmosphere. Also great for the kids. I first went when my crew was eight and we have been every year since.
Most important thing is to stick at it.

[Jimc (Guest)]

A more conventional option would be a skeg in front of the rudder. An RS200 has one, for instance, I understand because in development they felt its N12 evolved hull was a tad skittish for the average club sailor. I think a Mirror has one if there's not an RS200 handy to look at. A piece of 4"*1" pine would be better than PVC I should think.
But as the 12 sailors here say (I'm not one) befoe you get the tools out you should make sure that leaving an extra six inches of centreboard down on any given point of sailing whilst getting in some practice isn't an equally effective solution.

[rules (Guest)]

The other slight problem, depending how you do it, could be the hollows rule.  Have a look at the class rules and make sure you don’t convert your 12 into the first 12 foot one design.
You keep the boat upright with the tiller and the mainsheet, the crew runs about, 8 year olds are good like that.

[johnk]

If you are sailing (not racing) in strongish gusty winds, consider aquiring an old Mirror mainsail. This approximates to a reef down to the bottom batten. Youngsters can then helm and crew with a fast, well behaved boat. When you have got the coordination sorted, full sail is even better.

[Alex D]

Having been through this a couple of years ago there are a few things that I didn't really get the importance of to start with.
Read the guides on the web site.
Check the rig is set up with the right balance. Rake and mast foot position.

Sitting apart off wind and not both trying to correct balance at the same time helps to start. It can all go wrong really fast.
Look at the position of other 12 crews (lots on youtube).

Dumping the kicker if you start heading up and rolling over can save a swim.
Plate position can be useful to balance the effort from the rig off wind and up wind.
I'm lucky as my crew likes swimming