National 12 - find out more...


Started by Martin, 25 Nov 2009, 08:47

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In a rash moment I started to fill out in my mind the application form on this site for the P&B DCB.  When I added VAT at 17.5% and the bill came to well over £12K, I came round with a thump. 

Ho Hum must remember to do the lottery this week as sure as hell Father Christmas won't be bringing me one. All of a sudden some of the more expensive DB boats on the secondhand list are looking quite good value!

It will be interesting to see what, if any, impact this boat has on the market........


You would save 2.5% VAT if P & B invoiced you in December and you paid up front! That does leave a lot still to pay though.

Antony (Guest)

Did you ever do the same exercise on the P&B Foolish order form?  You will probably find that the extra cost of £1000-1500 is almost entirely accounted for by the complications added to the rudder and centreboard.  These are custom built boats built by one of the top 3-4 dinghy builders in the country.  You are right that there is a pretty aggressive depreciation rate in years 1-4 of N12 ownership but that is true with almost any boat and it does mean that in classes that use good building techniques and materials, like the 12, you get a great boat for your money if you buy 3-4 year old boats. 
I did once sell a 12 for more than she cost me, but that was a 3-4 year old one that i bought cheap!
I thought that at first glance the sails looked very cheap!
Obviously in the current case the comments above depend a bit on your view of the design progress made with the DCB vs all the existing designs.
3348 (first owner of 3431, 3484 & 3514)

Phil Brown

Don't know if the prices have changed but Rondar's Dinghy Show price for a P2 to include full race spec, adjustable T foil rudder, sails, covers, combi and VAT was £8500. That could be a one off price but if you take out the carbon and trim tab options it's still a good deal against the CB and FF
<br />Phil Brown<br /><br />N 3518

Antony (Guest)

"'s still a good deal against the CB and FF" is rather a subjective comment.  The Rondar product was a deliebrate attempt to build a budget boat, and it is safe to assume that they did not get down to budget simply by removing the profit margin.  It is certainly cheaper, to be a good deal is more subjective and would require you to firstly want that shape and secondly be relaxed about the methods by which they saved money.  I do not have a strong view on the second, or much knowledge of what they did in the materials/construction..... I do think it is a big ugly boat and accept that is a very subjective view of my own that others disagree with!
When i start bumping into builders of N12s in flash cars then i will start to wonder about their margins...

Pandora’s Box (Guest)

It’ll be interesting to see how the discussion plays out in the class when people realise that a new boat is about £1000 to £1500 more as a result of the foils.  An upgrade to an exciting boat will be a good £500 on top of that.  Will that be considered good value for money?  Either way I can’t see those who’ve already invested being keen to see them banned.
I think that Antony has hit the nail on the head with his comments here.  Only time will tell what a Rondar boat will be worth in 5 years, I’ve experienced several of their other products and would take a wait and see position on that.  I’m pretty sure the P&B DCB will stand up well to years of (ab)use, and may or may not still be a competitive shape.
‘Interesting’ times.

John Meadowcroft

My understanding, based on a conversation had in a bar, so you would have to go to Rondar to confirm this, is that their original Paradigm 2 pricing remains valid for 2009.  I believe that there is a boat in the mould at the moment so this could be your opportunity for a surprise visit from Santa...
The main area money has been saved is in the hull construction.  The mouldings are very simple to put together for the boat builder.  Profit margins are reduced as the boat is being sold by the person who builds it and owns the tooling and this clearly helps but is not everything.
Despite people wanting for some reason to destroy the potential second hand value of my recent investment, I will not get dragged into the debate! 
My understanding of the perceived problems with buying a N12 were the twin issues of availability and price.  We seem to have two builders working very hard to have found a solution to the former and you now have a clear choice on the latter including the opportunity to just buy a bare hull from P&B.  Or you can play with what you already have.
N3523 (Rondar) Paradigm 2


Why shouldn't boat builder's drive flash cars?  Much though I like the idea of boatbuilder's working for very little, in life you get what you pay for.  If the builder is efficient and build's lots of boats there is no reason why he should not drive a flash car, it is not a crime to make a good living if you are not good at your job.  Many of us drive flash cars and in many cases our jobs do not require the hours or skill of some boatbuilders.

Phil Brown


If everything was down to price alone, then life would be very much simpler. Out of curiosity, I did the same calculation the other day on the DCB as Martin did and, like he, drew breath. I haven't spoken to Paul recently but he is pretty efficient at producing boats, so maybe that is where the difference lies. Anyway, this is one of the attractions of the class that we can have a variety of designs and construction that can produce boats with similar performance.

As for Pandora's Box's comment, my boat wasn't built by Rondar so I'm not going to spring to their defence but there are not many boat builders that haven't had production "opportunities" over the years.

So what if any of the builders produce a budget boat that might not be worth as much in 5 years time? They are bought cheaper and sold cheaper, so the depeciation is probably the same for the first owner. From all the comments we see and hear, the market is crying out for reasonably priced, second hand, modern design, DB boats. That can only be a good thing for the class as a whole. We may all want to drive around in BMW's or whatever, but not all of us can afford them (or aspire to them) and are quite happy in a Mondeo. The builders should be commended for supporting the class and producing cost effective boats.

But all that misses the point. For all the variety, what the boat builders cannot supply is the nut that goes on the end of the tiller and I believe that that, at the end of the day, is what makes the real difference. Will the owner of the next DCB produce 6 wins at Burton Week? It's a truism in nearly all classes that the vast majority of the fleet are sailing a boat that is faster than the crew is, even if the boat was set up properly. It probably applies to N12s as well, although we do have a remarkable pool of talent, anyway, I know I fit that category.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I agree with Mike that we may be at a turning point. Next season could be very interesting.
<br />Phil Brown<br /><br />N 3518


Now do the same exercise for a Merlin and you will get 5k more at least!


I did, a few years back, and even then i stopped at £16,500 and bought an early sistership for £9,500!  At least with the 12 there is material design progress in the last 10 years.  I guess it would be cheaper to build without those quaint plank effects that they put on the outside...

Jeremy C

Someone at our club spent 19.5K on a new merlin at the beginning of this year. Was a wood one but he still had to compromise what he wanted to keep it at that figure!
Trick Cyclist-3444<br />In the pink-3408<br />Kifi-2431- under restoration<br />Flying Saucer 1277 (joint owner)<br />and now Bart 3455 too (sigh!)


that is a more money than sense situation though as hes sailed it less than 10 times


I'm sure you'll find that Rondar are still offering the P2 at a price around what's being quoted above.  Value is a subjective thing - if you're prepared to pay the money, whatever it is, then it's worth it.  People have said to me that DCB is a complicated boat to build in its current incarnation - but we've seen how fast it can go in Jo's hands.  Paul at Rondar, working with Dave P and Meds, has set out to create a really affordable new package.  When I put Flipside on the water in 2005, having fitted out the boat myself with top quality fittings, I stopped counting at £10k. So a complete package incl VAT at c.£8.5k in 2009 looks pretty good value to me.  Beauty's in the eye of the beholder.  Speed is down more to the way we sail than the boat we sail in.  But the main thing is what a good state it is for the Twelves to be in to have two great new choices for 2010 and beyond.

Mike D


£19500 for Merlin thats cheap. Merlin's put a stop to wingged rudders some years ago, and again last year. Merlin sailors buy a boat as a ten year investment, ie. whats it going to cost me over ten years.(A ten year old Merlin will still see you at the front of the fleet in big events). The current Winder boats come out of the 1980-90 Turner Tales mold.
Now if if you buy a winged N12 and it puts you were you want to be and the boat is easy to live with and their are no new developments, then the price is worth paying and over ten years will work out cheaper than a night out in a night club once a week.
PS. This years Gill winning boat was built in1998, how's that for value for monny. 

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