illogical tie breaker rules

[paul turner]

Is it me or are the series tie breaker rule unfair and illogical?
Boat A scores three thirds at an open meeting but boat B, who gets one 2nd and 2 fourths beats him overall - the rule says that if the best two scores are equal you ignore the discard and list the results when they sailed against each other and at the first break the best one wins - in this case boat A, even though his discard is better and he has beaten boat B twice will lose on a 3rd against boat B's 2nd. Boat B could have a retirement or "did not bother turning up" and will still win.
I am sure there is a logic to this rule for SERIES but it makes no sense to me for individual open meetings.
OK - confession time  this has just happened to me at Midland yesterday but I have seen this injustice several times since the new rules came in in 2009. Who do we write to make representations before they re-issue after 2013?
Does anyone else agree or am I a lone voice?
Baffled of Breaston :K)

[Martin 1262 (Guest)]

Paul
I agree it seems strange, it happened to me at Hykeham a few weeks, ago. I had a 3rd 6th and 4th, and was beaten by a DNF 4th and a 3rd, the result was I was 4th overall, not 3rd, as the discards do not count, its the position in the last race that mattered.
I guess it does work both ways, and as long as you know the rules you can play by them. (I didn't until now). If you have all to play for, I guess it makes the last race that more exciting (or dis-spriting depending on your viewpoint!)
Martin

[jonathan_twite]

Assumming that they were using the standard ISAF rules (2009-2012) Appendix A scoring system
A8.1

If there is a series-score tie between two or more boats, each boat’s race scores shall be listed in order of best to worst, and at the first point(s) where there is a difference the tie shall be broken in favour of the boat(s) with the best score(s). No excluded scores shall be used.
This is why boat B wins.
If this is still a tie (e.g. both boats have a 1st and a 2nd) then you use A8.2
If a tie remains between two or more boats, they shall be ranked in order of their scores in the last race. Any remaining ties shall be broken by using the tied boats’ scores in the next-to-last race and so on until all ties are broken. These scores shall be used even if some of them are excluded scores.

This system makes it well worth fighting every race for that one better position and rewards people who win races (it may disadvantage people who are consistently 3rd in every race, but they didn't win any race, so should they be given 1st prize?).
It is well known in regattas for people who cannot be beaten going into the last race to pack up early and watch the final race from the comfort of the clubhouse.  In my opinion, good on them as they must have deserved it.
These are the rules that add the quirks that are unique to sailing events - for example when Ben Ainsley (I think) went into the last race at an Olympics only needing a certain other boat to come worse than 22 and spent the whole race getting in his way - they came 22 & 23 and Ben won Gold.

Edit : Having read the next reply, do you not use the standard scoring method at opens (I haven't been to a N12 open yet)?

[Martin1262 (Guest)]

Hi Jonathan
If I am the next reply to what you are referring, then I thought I did understand the rules...now I dont!!!! :-/
Perhaps being blissfully unaware is easiest, we do after all try and get the best position possible in any race....If you win then thats a bonus from my end of the fleet...
But Paul has a good point if your open meeting has 3 races then why not make use of any discards if the results are tied...surely a fairer outcome..
Martin
 

[angus]

By Its nature any tie break situation will have winners and losers, I don't see either system as illogical but then i am not an accountant and I must admitt to rather liking the present system although I am not sure if I fully understand it in all situations, but then i have never worked out whcih is the credit side in double entry,;D

[jonathan_twite]

My club (Nottingham SC) does use an altered system (number of 1st positions, then if still tied position in last race raced together) but only for 1st place ties, all other tied places are left as ties.  I don't know why.  Clubs/regattas can alter the system as they like in their own S.I.s

[Red Hot Pudding]

Being in the boat that benefitted from the tie breaker rules at Midland on Sunday, it does seem to me to be a bit harsh, that even though we were beaten by Paul and Millie in 2 of the 3 races, our 2nd place in race 2 meant that our 6 point total was better than Paul's 6 point total. Maybe the rules don't work so well for 3 race open meeting meetings.
Ian

[steve (Guest)]

Paul,
The current tie breaking rules have been around longer than since 2009 at least since 2001 and maybe before when the system of counting number of first, number of seconds etc was introduced. I remember at the time thinking it was a bit of a radical change from the previous system, which did use the discard as a tie breaker. I think it was about the same time that we stopped scoring 3/4 for first. I tend to agree that there will be some obvious examples of the tie being broken in a way that seems illogical. You just have to use the system that is laid down in the rules and you'll find that you'll win some and you'll lose some. Better luck next time.

Regards,

Steve
N3531

[Chadders]

Careful Paul if you win this one I would have beaten you and Vince at Ripon when we all 3 got 12 points perhaps. But I guess that any system will have its drawbacks.

[martin 1262 (Guest)]

Pauls gone very quiet on this thread!!!!;)

[paul turner]

I'm back! So who do we (I) write to at the RYA or whatever to complain? And is there any reason to stop us (me) changing the rules for the Midland Area next year to say that at individual opens the discards will be the tie breaker not the count-back which would count for the series? Px:K)
PS Chadders - the same happened at TVSC last year I think!

[MikeDay]

Paul
 
I'd say that as Midland Area series organiser, you can only vary the rules for qualification in your series.  It's not within your jurisdiction to change individual clubs' open meeting rules from the offical norm as each meeting is run under their burgee.  That could only be a matter for them, their sailing committees and/or the Race Officer for the meeting in question.
 
Mike D
N3533

[johnk]

I have known a situation where the (Solo) class wanted a different tie break rule from the standard ISAF one for the series than which the organising club used for the single event. This did not cause significant problems. We do need to consider the "long" series case (Gill?) where we declare that  X races (events) count. Here it is unfair (IMHO) to count more than X events since people may well chose not to enter more than X events.
For an individual one day event it is surely up to the orgainsing body to amend the ISAF rule should it think fit. It is also possible to give points for retired boats based on the number of starters in that race as opposed to the number of entries to the event.
What does matter is that the rules to be applied are clearly stated before the start of the first race.

[jonathan_twite]

We do need to consider the "long" series case (Gill?) where we declare that  X races (events) count. Here it is unfair (IMHO) to count more than X events since people may well chose not to enter more than X events.

For this, surely the best system is the complete ISAF "method".  If there is a tie on points, then do count back of the races not discarded
e.g. 1,2,2,5,(dnc),(dnc),(dnc) beats 1,2,3,4,(7),(9),(dnc). (N.B. the actual results would be in a different order)

therefore not dissadvantaging boats who can only make a few too much, but those boats that can get to lots of events have lots of opportunities to better their score.
If it is still a tie, then it would go down to the result of the final race - making the finale more important for those in a close battle for a position and making the whole final race more of an exciting event