Author Topic: Those foils  (Read 3190 times)

malcolm_mackley

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Those foils
« on: October 21, 2014, 12:29:04 PM »
At Salcombe last weekend I viewed from my sedate, but sometimes upside down Solo, National 12s going at speeds I thought were previously impossible. Meds offwind and the Ballentines planing upwind and others too. Exciting! So to kick start the class again, how about someone coming up with a complete and affordable rudder foiling package together with the clever bits that fit onto the transom so that people with older designs such as the  Feeling Foolish can buy, bolt on and go flying too. Could get the class on the move again.I do hope so. The Paper Dart zillions of years ago gave the class a real boost because it was off the shelf, plug and play sailing. kind regards Malcolm Mackley, ex Matador, Mr Pastry, Macbeth, Lovejoy, Reckless Rita, Freak Out, Big Issue, Red Snapper.
ps Nice new website; well done.

mattb

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Re: Those foils
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2014, 01:15:17 PM »
as far as the bits that go on the back, Ron Price (the guy who designed and build this http://www.warsashsuperyachtacademy.com/news-events/news-articles/2014/september/cutting-edge-hydrofoil-catamaran-unveiled-at-southampton-boat-show.aspx,) has told me that one of the component manufacturers was to announce production transom fittings for canting foiling rudders. I haven't been able to track them down yet but .....
The solent Wisper uses screw threads to provide 120:1 purchase in a very simple and robust stock, at least for the daggerboards anyway. I'm not sure how well it would transfer to the rudder stock but the whole whisper package is beautifully thought through and well executed.
 
Matt

Dave Croft

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Re: Those foils
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2014, 02:33:13 PM »
Well said Malcolm, thats the most sensible suggestion (re N12's) I've seen for ages!!

Antony (Guest)

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Re: Those foils
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2014, 06:23:39 PM »
Malcolm,
I agree with you too, and indeed looked into buying a Foolish (it would have been my third!) and doing it.  Unfortunately my conclusion was it was too expensive unless one could make the foil oneself (and you know me well enough to know the answer to that question).  I think that a fully professional job, transom re-inforced, fittings and foiled rudder blade, was going to cost nearly £2,000 - which was more than I was planning to spend on the boat!
Antony

Tim Gatti

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Re: Those foils
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2014, 09:02:11 PM »
So Antony - what level of pricing for the package do you think would make the proposition more attractive/affordable?
The issue will then be whether or not a manufacturer could do it at that price and still make a profit - but at least it gives them something to aim for.

Dave Croft

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Re: Those foils
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2014, 08:58:20 AM »
I don't know what Anthony was thinking but I would suggest around the price of a new suit of sails would be reasonable and achievable. Surly there are some economies to be had in a small producuton run and not using carbon throughout? Must be a quite a good potential market I would guess.

STU W

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Re: Those foils
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2014, 12:54:12 PM »
Problem is then you are asking for people who want to get into the class to pay nearly 1/3 to 1/2 of the price of their boat on a rudder. Can get a reasonable double bottom boat for £2000 and then paying £6/700 on top of it? Might as well buy a ready to race RS 200. In my case would have to spend more on the rudder than on the boat? Does that make any sense.
think this needs more thought. IMHO.
Stuart
N 3246
12's are for life not just for christmas.

Dave Croft

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Re: Those foils
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2014, 01:22:51 PM »
Hi Stuart, I would disagree,  I would say that a £2,000 double bottom boat with a sub £1,000 foiling rudder update would be more competitive than an equivalent RS200.
Dave
 
PS I hate to read this constant comparison with the RS200, people buy RS200's for very different reasons than people might buy N12's.

GC

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Re: Those foils
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2014, 09:27:32 PM »
Well said Dave. The fact is that you will not win a championship in a £1,000 boat in any class but you can have a lot of fun in a 12 for that price.
For £2,000 you can have a lot of fun and be very comptitive on small waters or on light days- not many classes can offer such a competitive boat for that.
I admit that when we put the foiling rudder on the foolish it helped that we were working on a bare hull but the carbon rods for strenthening, fittings, Rudder and stock(professionally made) were no more than the price of a new suit of sails. 
A boat capable of winning races at the championships for under £4,000(including brand new sails) in any competitive fleet is hard to find, and to be able to do it in a boat which is such fun to sail is a big bonus.
Gerald

Antony (Guest)

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Re: Those foils
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2014, 01:10:45 PM »
Sorry for the slow response.... I did try to respond once with a dodgy connection and lost my reply.
My aim was the £1,000 package on my £1,900 Foolish (that I never bought) but i was prepared to be disappointed up to £12-1300.  I am told that the foil itself will always be a lot more expensive as a normal rudder as it is three foils with a very robust method needed to hold them all together.
I am pretty confident that in some open water conditions (to answer Neal in the other thread) this would be a fully competitive boat.  If it was as good as a DCB across all conditions that would suggest that Jo achieved nothing by designing his boat around the foiling rudder and I have more respect for his ability than to believe that to be true.
Antony (not the Anthony that Dave C was referring to....)

wobbly

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Re: Those foils
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2014, 10:26:28 PM »
As one of the flying 12s at Salcombe, we are not very good at DIY and all things crafty but our local 12 fleet had an away day in a barn making foils a few days  before the open. I was a bit worried it might not hold as it was still being patched with plastic and sanded the day before but it held and it was very windy. We ahd the chance to contemplate it from all angles ( including upsdie down)  So with the right tutor and support it was possible to construct one in a day and fettle it in one more day. May be Malcolm's idea of a ready made could also include 'tutored away days'?

wobbly

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Re: Those foils
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2014, 10:26:44 PM »
As one of the flying 12s at Salcombe, we are not very good at DIY and all things crafty but our local 12 fleet had an away day in a barn making foils a few days  before the open. I was a bit worried it might not hold as it was still being patched with plastic and sanded the day before but it held and it was very windy. We ahd the chance to contemplate it from all angles ( including upsdie down)  So with the right tutor and support it was possible to construct one in a day and fettle it in one more day. May be Malcolm's idea of a ready made could also include 'tutored away days'?

Dave Croft

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Re: Those foils
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2014, 02:21:25 PM »
Personally I would give the DIY approach a go with some guidance but a lot of people wouldn't. If there was a commercial operation who would be prepared to offer some options - say a kit, i.e.. a basic, epoxy sheathed t-foil, a finished version in epoxy or carbon with the correct fittings. I'm sure they would find a market with all those double-bottom-no-t-foil-boats out there. A builder may be prepared to offer a t-foil fitted for a fixed price? I wonder if (for example, the likes of..) Mike Cook, Kevin Driver or Ben Dingwall would be interested??
Having said that I have no plans to get a modern 12 at the moment but I would like to see the fleet flourishing once more which I think is also where Malcolm and Antony (got spelling right this time! ...sorry Antony) were coming from.

smilie

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Re: Those foils
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2014, 08:13:59 PM »
Something to think is the cherubists have done very well alot of the recent growth in the class is down to them holding 'sicky weekends. Where people get together and share ideas, skills, tools and knowledge to build all things carbon.
I have also heard you can use windsurfer fins as good easy method of putting wings on a rudder.
The futures bright the future is rivers and lakes

 

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