National 12 - find out more...

Weight changes?????

Started by Jimbo41, 04 Oct 2006, 12:32

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Pedantic (Guest)

Antony (Guest)

I would not change my words having read yours.  I am, obviously, prepared to reveal my identity.  

If enough people want to do the formal thing then they can find themselves a new Chairman too........



Terry (Guest)

When the current boat 3495 was new we sailed it without the 20K of correctors.
More fun
Faster, planed earlier, ask Chris Bishop
easier to sail.
Anyone wants to try it they can borrow my boat and take the lead out. Give it a go.
Development or restricted class?

simon ballantine

I'm not seriously suggesting any contentious rule changes but, as an idea to think about, what would be the implications be of freeing-up the weight restrictions for AC boats only.   It will make the old boats slightly more competitive at zero cost and might lead to some re-kindling of interest or innovation in the back half of the fleet.


rick perkins

Seems to me the objective so be to drive participation of the existing boats and encourage new builds.

Would a weight drop support this - I think not ...



N12 3490

Wedding Invitations
Contemporary W


But I think it is a suggestion along the right lines of whether different less restrictive rules could apply to ACs.

I don't know - allow more sail? more sails!?

Some Opens done on N12 handicap?

AC weight hull only, DBs everything counts?

Not sure I would want to chop wood out of our boat.


(not been in the 12 for a while - been in plastic stuff - which has been good - but picked up the 12 tonight  for the weekend away and it just looks so good)

Mikey C

I dont understand the obsession over keeping old boats competitive. Even one designs have a racing lifespan...
Carbon Toys for fast girls and boys!



Hi everyone,

Just had to reply to this! I am new to the class, I have a boat where the sails were measured in 1979 but the boat was not. I have spent the last two months preparing her to sail and now am waiting for the courage to risk her on the water.

I joined the class after much thought and dropping in on various websites because I really liked the idea of a class with history, an active membership who on this forum at least are passionate about their boats and INCLUSIVE. It is fantastic that people like Tom & Liz are doing great things in the latest boats but it is also great reading about Jimbo and his passion for Nuttyshell and all the others!

Rick has joined the class and provided some really good publicity because of his involvement in other classes too and the response on Y&Y was brilliant.

There is a place for the AC boats like mine and the vintage boats too, not all will be competitive but each has their place in this fantastic class which as a development class has nothing to lose by also enabling development in the older boats for those who want it. In particular it is great that so many entrys to the events are by, parent & child, husband & wife etc. I have not even been on the water yet but am inspired by the fact that one day my son and I can sail our old boat in the same event as Tom & Liz, Graeme & Zoe et al. I hope that he will aspire to then sail a modern 12 with his own crew rather than jump to a one design.

I definately like Barrys idea of perhaps less restrictive rules for older boats because I am really worried about how to have mine measured!!!

Sorry to ramble on.

Mack (2966 - proud to be wood)


Emma  (dance)

JimC (Guest)

[quote by=mack link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool,m=1159961563,s=24 date=1160724202]...class which as a development class has nothing to lose by also enabling development in the older boats...[/quote]

From an outside perspective I don't think your class rules do anything to prevent development on older boats. There's a common perception that changing rules = development.  I submit that its the exact opposite. Development is the process of improving boats within a common rule set. Changing the rule set is to halt all development and start from scratch again.

There may be times in a class life where its appropriate to do that - change the rules and start a new development cycle - but don't call it development 'cause it ain't!


I am all in favour of derestricting the weight for AC boats but leaving double bottom boats "heavy". It would save me from spending a load of money buying a new boat as I could dump the lead, remove a load of the wood from N3373 which would make her at least competitive with the modern boats and probably leave them standing even though the hull shape is fundamentally not as fast as the current designs. There would not be any possibility of more than two others doing this with the same benefits as only two additional boats were built in the same way and they are both owned by people whose ideas take a few years to come to fruition.

It would of course mean the value of these boats on the 2nd hand market would escalate, all development cease, the wishes of the majority (expressed at all the recent AGMs) for a period of stability swept aside and more people becoming disillusioned.

On the other hand, people could just resign themselves to the fact that even in one-design classes older boats are not as competitive as new ones and unless they are either lucky enough for money to be no object or willing to make sacrifices elsewhere, they are not going to be competing with T&L or G&Z but should just enjoy sailing a boat that beats all others for handling on the water, friendliness off it and allows an enormous amount of freedom to fit out however appeals most to each individual.

N3491 - still for sale at a modest price
N3373 - NOT for sale!!!


My point was nothing to do with weight-changes - to be honest this doesn't effect me as I am not doing a whole lot of sailing at the moment, so I didn't want to put my opinion across on that one.

My point was that the class should not be asking Antony alone what his opinions are, as his are no more or less valid than anybody else's.

If the majority opinion is that a rule should not be changed, fair enough. But this should be explained in terms of a majority decision, not shown on this website to be a decision made by the chairman and the chairman alone.

Emma  (dance)


For me there is absolutely no point trying to make a ford fiesta go as fast as a golf gti, or what you are suggesting about cutting off the roof to reduce the weight!

Accept they are not going to be as competitive, otherwise you wouldn;t have bought one, appreciate the fact that your wooden boat looks sexier than their new one, smile while walking down the slipway, laugh on the way back up, have a beer in clubhouse and think about buying a new one!

Don;t try and make them the same, they are not!! and I wouldn't want my boat to have bits cut out of it just to try and keep up with someone that wants to buy a new one. Part of whats great about the 12 is the fact you can trade in when/IF you fancy something quicker.  I think the development should be in the new boats where people want and are willing to pay for it.


p.s. I think we should run a boat of the year competition!  send in photos ofyour boat and see who's got the sexiest!

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