RYA Dinghy Show - Alexandra Palace - 3rd/4th March

[THG]

[Mikey C]

I built the prototype for the Hartley boat, they are pretty simple to build as it is just a case of make hull, make deck, glue together. theres a few more large pieces (floor, thwart/box) and a lot more surface area in a N12.

[THG]

Mike - realised you did the build (nice looking boat too) - but if you look at it as a package side by side - cherub has bigger mast, sails, 3rd sail, extra pole etc - why wouldn't a 12 come out cheaper than a Cherub?

Would be intersting to do a real comparison of say the Cherub from hartley vs a new P&B 'off the shelf' packages and see how they compare.  I hear Hartley have a good reputation for quality so this seems to be a realistic side by side comparison - for an 'on the water' package and not just the hull costs.

Perhaps this will drive the market price to where it needs to be??

Kean

[John Meadowcroft]

[THG]

Ah - but whats in the 'from' - do I get a full carbon rig for example with P&B?  Still seems to me the off the shelf Cherub represents 'better value for money' of course very subjective but look at how we attract new people to the Class.  This is a bit like phone tarriffs - ever tried to make a direct comparison???  There could be more hidden costs for the off the peg Cherub too (all marketing speak)!!

The point was well made before maybe we need a couple of good off the peg standard designs which attract in new owers - yes P&B has taken this up and sought out a new supplier but is VFM being delivered - only time and orders will tell.

At least we DO have the option to home build, find a builder,go off the peg and various in betweens unlike the SMODs which is a much truer and open market but you could argue at what 'cost' to the fleet if it ain't growing much.  Hope this is the boost we need and a few newer DBs on the 2nd hand market - could be interesting...

[davidgr (Guest)]

I have no idea of the quality of the Cherub, however I wonder how light and rubust the Hartley Cherub will be given there experience is with Ospreys and Kestrels, which are no light weights.  To be fair to them their Osprey looked pretty good (plug by Kevin Driver).

Their prices are good too, and Hartley has pumped a fair amount of money into the business which I believe is run by his son, I do wonder about their business model since I can only see them getting a decent return if they can sell quite a lot of boats.

On the business side, much though I admire P&B's support from the class, the price must be pumped up slightly because they act as an intermediary, do you buy the Cherub direct from Hartley?

Also, as in most things in life, you get what you pay for.

Regards,

David
3461

[Phil Brown]

To us mere mortals, it's time on the water that counts, learning how to keep metal over plastic (yes, I'm not yet into a "carbon over carbon" budget) and very much the case as we're new to 12's.

From the outside coming in, there has be an easy, relatively low cost entry route that provides competitive sailing at an attractive cost. In our case it was a Design 8 that's got bucket loads of life left in it. Super high tech, super high complexity doesn't suit all and not everyone has the aspirations to win the Burton Cup (although we all dream. . ).

Sailing is different these days. We consume the sport instead of being consumed by it; we want easy access to our sport as time is precious (I know, we run a two kid taxi service).I've yet to see the P&B offering; with those prices, could be they're looking to recoup some set up costs, but they have taken up the baton of providing a package, albeit at a price.

Maybe a vanilla boat that looks the part, another essential these days, that provides off the shelf performance at maybe 97% without looking for those final, few, costly percent, is a way forward, within a framework of class that provide opportunity for innovation and experiment for those that feel inclined.

Personally, that is the appeal of the 12 and I can't wait to take up the challenge.

[John Meadowcroft]

Phil

Welcome to 12s.  the boat you have purchased is the previous generation P&B off the shelf boat.  It was originally built for Jon Ibbotson - he now has the latest P&B product.

the high quality off the shelf package has an exceptional life time.  The first Design 8 was 3283 - built in 1988!  Your boat is a mere 13 years old.

Don't forget these boats were the cutting edge, winning plenty of Open Meetings, Burton Weeks etc.

I really dont see that there is much profit in the price of these boats at all.  The value for someone like P&B being involved in new build is in helping to develop a strong class which they are then strongly linked to.  If 20 boats are built a year and they do 5, there are another 15 that need covers, trailers, sails, fittings etc.  They won't get them all but it is a larger pie and their piece of the pie will be bigger.  I am sure that they would like all 20, but realistically they want to promote new builds in the Class.

Those launching a new boat want something that little bit special.  That is what you need to win big races.  You pay for that little bit of speciality.  You don't have to have it and you are free to follow your own options.  P&B strongly believe in a high quality build.  That is why your Design 8 is in such good nick - it was excellently built to start with.  

Finally I have had 3 12s built.  The P&B supplied Feeling Foolish was easily the cheapest.  I wrote one large cheque rather than a number of smaller ones, but it was the cheapest.

John

[Jimbo42]

[THG]

[JimC]

Mike is of course right. That production Cherub is a *much* simpler build than a National. The pole and sail aren't really a lot of extra work with a build worked out in the way that one is. A Cherub built to the most sophisticated spec of some recent boats with stump rig, foredeck,full height spine etc would be a lot more expensive - at least 50% more labour at a guess. I would think that if I wanted Mike or Andy Paterson to build me a new Cherub to the equivalent setup of my last one I would be talking 11K plus.