Has the twelve become a one design???

[willothewisp123]

[philipcosson]

i think it has,

Virtually no DB boats come onto the market - and when they do, they are very expensive for a second hand boat.

I ended up buying a could moulded AC boat when I was looking for a DB chapter!

We have recently had an excellent sailor join the class from the RS200 fleet, who asked several questions on this forum about rules - he was obviously interested in the development aspect of the class. Each reply came back "no, you cant do that". Result has been after one burton week, he has left the class. I think this is partly due to the lack of possibility for 'tinkering' in the current rule set.

The only way to release the DB final chapters etc into the second hand market is to reduce the hull weight - it is crazy to have 20kg of correctors in a boat!

Final point - average husband and wife combined weight in 1936 was significantly lighter than average husband and wife weight now. The 12 is serving an ever decreasing market share.

POSSIBLE SOLUTION

1) relax some of the rules

3) reduce hull weight by 5kg OR have a combined boat/crew weight - so heavier crews can take out some correctors.

2) allow different rig options - laser have 4.7, radial, standard and now rooster 8.1 - all on the same hull.


I am resigned to sail a class within a class (the AC fleet)

Philip
3367

[MikeDay]

[rick perkins]

I suspect Philip is talking about me(us) so I will just put the record straight.

We have moved on from the class for a number of reasons the main ones being:

1) We are too heavy to be competitive in my view ... I know some will say that different designs carry weight better but none were for sale. Graham & Tom are in a different class to the rest of the fleet and I suspect they are sailing very light. First Tub was 7th.

2) There are too few fixtures on decent water (i.e. open sea). So there are not many opportunites to benchmark boat speed.

3) Turnouts are poor.

There are other reasons which I have shared with the ex & present chairman for their consideration.

With regards to rule change - I wouldn't do it, the class is small now so don't split it down even further.

I had plenty of calls about my boat so there is demand but all were current 12 owners so no new blood was interested.

Going forwards there are many challenges for the fleet - but if you could revive amature wooden building I think that could really help. Dare has proven that a home built wooden boat can be both competitive & cheap ... not many classes can offer that.

[davidgr (Guest)]

Hi All,

I moved on from 12's over the winter, although I still have great affection and enthusiasm for the class.

Willowthewisp I assume is trying to to prevoke a reaction, but as Mike rightly points out, there is plenty of choice of designs, builder's and rigs, which is why quite a broad range of weights can be competitive in 12's.

In my opinion the class should avoid making rule changes to prevoke new building, much though I would have liked to sail a lighter 12, you must keep the 12 within the realms of the amateur builder or occassional professional builder in wood and FRP.  

With the benefit of hindsight the worse rule change that was approved was relaxation of the double curvature rule, this made investment in expensive moulds and tooling almost (though not completely) mandatory.

You only need to look at the current health of the Merlin class to see how a "Restricted Class" (which is on reality what the 12 is) can happly exist, even if 95% of the boats are from one builder and of the same design.  The key to their success was to get the boat into the market at a price that competed with the equivalent RS.

I wonder if the concept of a "Development" class frightens more people than it attracts.

The P&B Ovington Foolish will no doubt be a product that is as well, if not better engineered than the RS200, and hopefully be attractive to the "off the shelf" market.  The Foolish works with a wide range of weights.

For my two penny worth I would try and get the Foolish marketed at a "competitive" price for the first few boats to get the momentum going, and then concentrate on selling this package almost as a one design to bring new people into the class, at the same time the developers, who are already in the class can carry on with individual "one-offs".

Why have I moved on?  Josie (crew) has moved on to other things, and I cannot summon the energy to find an adult crew and come in at a competitive weight.

All the best,

David
S4789
Y177

[willothewisp123]

Dave,

not trying to provoke an outburst of any sorts. However - you hit the nail on the head  - you have given up because you can't find an adult crew and come in at a competetive all up weight.

All the phone calls I had about Bounder fizzled out when weight was discussed. I sold because at 6ft 1" and 17 stone, the boat was too small for me and I required a child crew. The people enquiring also realised that with their normal crew they would come in well over 24 stone.

I think as Phil says, weight carrying is a major problem for the class. I think Phil's suggestion for all up weight with crew makes sense. Unless you go down a radical route to design rig or hull changes to make heavy crews attracted to the class or use all up weight with correctors for lighter crews then people will be put off the class.

A lot of people are interested and would like to sail N12's but they don't because they are too heavy. So they sail other classes..

Pete

[davidgr (Guest)]

Pete,

With no disrespect, it is unlikely that any class is going to cater for a weight range from 16 stone to 24 stone.  Especially if it is only 12ft long.  If you are looking at a non trapeze, non spi boat, how about an Albacore, or with a spinaker an RS400 or a Merlin (although their optimum weight is getting less)?

Regards,

David

[Barry]

Or a Lark - sensational amount boat for buck - old boats very competitive. Have to watch the pie consumption though.

[willothewisp123]

I think you have lost the point of my post. Yes there are other classes that people turn to.

The couple that bought my boat, reckoned they would weigh over 24 stone all up. Both fit young twentysomethings in the Navy  - so hardly outrageously portly.

Personally I will be back on the wire on a Nacra 6.0 - perfectly suitable for two guys my weight. I only bought a N12 as a stopgap whilst waiting for a Nacra to come on the market.

My point is....what can be done to address the issue of weight bearing ability in the class, or do you just accept that as people get bigger, you stick to your guns on the rules and see an ever diminishing number of people able to compete in the class?

[philipcosson]

Some classes don't even stipulate a crew number - just a weight limit all up hull and crew. Peter could sail on his own at 17 stone and be very competitive if we took that tack.

I would like to suggest an analogy with methodism - The first methodists were rebels who wanted to reform and renew the staid C of E, today the methodist denomination is generally reactionary and possibly more tradition bound than the C of E. This is mainly due to second and third generation members, who join for different reasons than the first members had.

For the National 12 to keep its 'development class' credentials, it needs to allow more development. It is definitely more accurately called a 'restricted class' at the moment. In choosing an AC boat I have definitely joined a 'restricted class' - as even a modern single bottom (crazy diamond) can't be called an AC - so no real development is possible.

As for amateur building - when was the burton last won by an amateur built boat?

Philip
N3367

[philipcosson]

this is all idle chat BTW... More about what classification the class should be under than changes to the rules.

the N12 is still the most beautiful 2 person dinghy on the boat park in my opinion - wood, fibreglass or carbon.

as a prevous poster has said - the 'development' tag probably does scare off more than it attracts.

[Barry]

The cherub is 12ft long and has allowed all sorts of development. It has some active members and produces some interesting boats (though arguably not beautiful) but it's hardly a booming class.

It has the extreme 12ft development class niche and it isn't a big niche.

There might be the potential for self build if the rules were simpler. I wonder how many rules are required?

12ft, monohull, max width x, hiking, 2 crew, 2 sails, no foils, cannot change rig during open events.

I still drool over 12s (there is a lovely D8 our dinghy park) but with a min weight of 25st and a kite enabled crew - it will be just admiring glances.

[John Meadowcroft]

to answer the original question....

I cant see evidence to support this statement whatsoever.

Re the last amateur built boat to win the burton - I reckon that Graham & Zoe can have that.  True they only completed a hull, but I reckon most people who bought a shell and finished it would feel like they had built it!  They like to give Brett Dingwall all the credit though.  It is also a fact that there are very few people with the genuine talent to both build an amateur boat and also sail like a pro!

Finally not sure what is "expensive" for a secondhand boat DB boat.  Given that the boats tend to be built so stiffly and development is pretty incremental (this is very different from one design).  I am planning a new boat as I want to try some different ideas and have some fun. I will sell the existing boat when the new one gets sorted out.  I have no intention of giving it away though!

Finally my advice to anyone looking for a particular design is to use the wanted part of the for sale part of this website so as to register their interest so you dont miss out on boats when they do come up!

John
N 3473.

[Martin]

[Tim L (Guest)]

Errrm...if you weigh 17st all up (which from memory is what Sam and I weighed all up at the 2005 BW) then maybe its your own decision making not the class that's at fault - thats a bit of an unrealistic ask...  Yes people are getting heavier and the Merlins and Larks are certainly reaping the rewards of being in the right weight range but there still needs to be a class that caters for light weights that isn't purely a youth class.

As for not popular - the DB bottoms and newer AC boats are shifting virtually over night, so sounds like a lot of people are keen on 12s and probably happily club sailing even if BW has had a quiet year (oddly coincidental with one of the most shocking summers ever...).

Maybe the weight cold come down slowly just as a maintenance measure to stop a big jump later as there are very few ACs at BW now, but if the second hand supply of DBs can be increased I think the class will pick up again.

Interestingly the larks have instigated a classic division, how very one design....

T