battens

[Jimbo41]

Are full length battens better?

The Blaze class don't think so. The original sail had full length batterns, but they now all have a slightly smaller sail which is not fully battened.

I believe the reason for the change was to make the boat easier to sail. When I sailed one with the fully battened sail, tacking was interesting for a lightweight as there was no power in the sail until the battens flipped, then bang. I also assume that they were hard to depower in a breeze. This is a problem with the RS200 and why you have to have weight even to keep one up. the 12 is easy to depower and that make it a joy to sail.

One thing about putting more power into 12 is that you will please the heavyweights and upset the lightweights. The 12 is seen as a boat for lightweights, change this and you will loose the parent and child teams as well as the lightweight teams. the 12 has a niche, increasing power will probably change the niche and make it smaller.


Nigel 3490

Why not allow them for those who might need them - like me for example?  If both types of sail were allowed, would't the niche be expanded? I hardly ever need to depower and could do with fully battened sails.

[Tim L (Guest)]

hmmm . .. is that so? I didn't notice any of the 100 odd moth sailors at weymouth last week carrying two sets of sails. I know the cherubs don't. what about the merlins?
I guess yachts generally carry around a range of sails and so do `18 foot skiffs but that is altogethor more to do with depowering by having a smaller rig up. We have that flexibility now and I only know of one national12 sailor to choose a smaller sailplan.
 

 
I'd check your facts there Matt - a lot of discussion and trialling of multiple sails in the moth fleet.  And Merlins weren't fully battened last time I looked.... 
The battens don't stop the sail stretching (they do stop flapping, yes).  If you wan't longer lasting 12 sails you can specify them to be more heavily built at very little change in performance I'm sure.  How many battens would you break/batten pockets wear out against the shrouds...?

[Jon711 (Guest)]

Yes the Blaze fleet changed from fully battened mainsails but that was because the sail was so hard to de-power in the heavy stuff, it put off newcomers to the fleet.  It may have been just a poor sail design in the first place not necessarily down to the full battens.  However since changing the mainsail nationals turnouts went from 20's to 50's.  As for longevity of the new sail mine lasted 4 years until I replaced it this year....
Jon Thompson

[andymck]

A lot of modern classes also have a semi full battened sail. such as the RS800 and red eye solution. I find these a good compromise, as easier to depower, and with 2 top battens they flick much easier than the traditional single top batten. This also gives the option for more sail higher up, which with a carbon mast is easier to control. I will probably be at Hunstanton with the solution if anyone wants to check the sail out.

[Tasarteaser (Guest)]

Ok. I know it sounds like bull whatever, but after having tried the fully battened sails on a Tasar, this, together with the wing mast really convinced me that this was the "future in the past" given the class´s 30 odd year history. Easy to depower, repower when you need it and really quite easy to set up. Both jib and main are fully battened as Mylar and cost less than the dacron equivalents. I´m buying a set next season, until then patching up the tatty dacron set I have at the moment. 
Cheers!
Jim. 
P.S. I´m pleased we´re having a 12 Rules debate at the moment. Good initiative Matt!

[John123 (Guest)]

If I am to order a new suit for next season should I specify fully battened?

[Martin]

If I am to order a new suit for next season should I specify fully battened?

Erm have I missed something here?

[Sailmakers Friend (Guest)]

Interesting discussion at the 14 worlds (AGM) â€" ‘we need to be allowed to use more than one sail during a series, these fat top’s are no good when the breeze is up’
 
So much for the automatic controllability.

[MarkSimpson]

"One thing about putting more power into  12 is that you will please the heavyweights and upset the lightweights. The 12 is seen as a boat for lightweights, change this and you will loose the parent and child teams as well as the lightweight teams. the 12 has a niche, increasing power will probably change the niche and make it smaller. ..."

The class numbers are getting smaller all the time, look at championship attendances, Gill event attendances and ordinary open meeting turnouts.  I'd say the niche is already too small.  If a more powerful main was an option the class might stand a chance of attracting some of the crews who sail RS200s who (rightly or wrongly) believe that they are too heavy for a 12.  Anybody who so wishes could continue to use their traditional mainsail.  Hence the niche is expanded.

When was the last time you saw anybody folding up their sails and putting them in a cake tin?  I'm with mutt on this one, an out of date rule that could do with being brought up to date.  People can choose between different types of hull design, why not allow them to choose a different sail design as well?
Mark
3472

[John123 (Guest)]

No Martin, you haven't missed anything, I merely intended to restore thread to the front page; for [face=comic sans ms,sans-serif]"If I am to order a new suit for next season should I specify fully battened?"[/face][face=comic sans ms,sans-serif]<font face="verdana,geneva"> simply read  << Boing !>>  I don't have anything to contribute but interested to re-ignite the debate.
[/face]</font>

[Sailmakers friend (Guest)]

‘People can choose between different types of hull design, why not allow them to choose a different sail design as well? When was the last time you saw anybody folding up their sails and putting them in a cake tin?  I'm with mutt on this one, an out of date rule that could do with being brought up to date.  People can choose between different types of hull design, why not allow them to choose a different sail design as well?’
 
I don’t disagree with your thinking, but you can only race one hull in a series.  Would you allow people to use different sails on different days, or would you rule against that?  Not sure we want people thinking that they need multiple rigs for their boat, cos you would want a different mast for your fully battened sail as well…

[MarkSimpson]

There are some series where people are allowed to race different hulls, not that I'm advocating all series should allow that.  Most people have just one boat, they select the hull that is most suitable for them when they buy their boat and sail it all the time.  The same could apply to their sails, i.e. heavier crews would select a fully battoned main and using it all the time.  It might prompt some development and innovation to allow the sail to be modified to be more effective in light winds. 
 
Does a fully battoned main need a different mast or would it just work better on a different mast?  Assuming that you are right, the idea does lose some of its merit, having to have two different rigs is a different proposition to just having two different sails that fit the same mast.  But to answer your question, if two sails on one mast was feasible, then I don't see why poeple shouldn't be allowed to select different sails during a series depending on the conditions. 
  
 
Cheers
mark

[tedcordall]

Sort of like sailing a laser with a rooster 8.1 rig in the light stuff and gradually moving down to a 4.7 rig when it's honking. Most classes don't allow this, with the RS300 for example we have to nominate the A or B rig and stick with it.
 
However, just because other classes don't allow it doesn't mean we shouldn't consider it, especially considered in the context of handicap racing at club level, where frankly, our main consideration should be making the class more accessible and more popular.