Messages

I don't know about 12s, but a chap who works for us has a races leaders and they have 2 four inch waste pipes through the rear tank with a crude rubber flap as a non return valve. Apparently they work quite effectively. (Of course in a 12 they would have to be carbon tudes with mylar flaps )

You could, but there are lots of reasons why it wouldn't work well.

Modern aircraft wings are stunningly efficient anyway but the winglet adds a tiny bit more efficiency, not just by acting as an endplate, but by 'unwinding' the tip vortex. (The gain is small but the fuel saved in flying a large aircraft halfway round the world is significant.) To do this the winglets have a twist which assumes that the high pressure side of the wing will always be on the same side. (hopefully the bottom!)

The dinghy sail alternates the high/low pressure side every time you tack so a fixed twisted winglet would have the wrong twist half the time.

You could try a flat endplate but dinghy sails have a very low aspect ratio and are stunningly inefficient (in aircraft terms). The flow over them is a lot more turbulent than over a wing and I suspect that all you would do is to add drag and weight to the top of your mast.

I look forwards to being proved completely wrong! Go try it.

The 'designs' section of the website is excellent and gives a good snapshot of the relevant features of each model. There isn't however a description (or even a heading) for the man-o-war.

Oh, and re Merlin Rockets. Invest is obviously the right word. Have you seen how much they cost?

[quote by=Jimbo42 link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool,m=1135347189,s=19 date=1136578915]Ted, have you ever sailed ANY kind of 12? Jim N3130[/quote]


God no. Mostly trapeze asymmetrics actually! But thats why I don't think they are the answer to every ill. I'm hoping to work up to a 12 presently and thats why I joined the association. However, coming from the outside I was trying to say something about how the 12 looks to someone who doesn't have one but is thinking about it. You might know that the 12 is God's own boat but to keep new members coming in you have to keep convincing non 12 sailors that it is. You need people to look at the boat and say 'Christ, look at that! I want one of those!'

There are loads of newish one designs out there, nearly all have asymmetrics and nearly all are cheaper than a twelve. I was trying to say - Why jump out of your niche - just make the niche bigger.

Oh please, not another added on asymmetric. If lightweights want a boat with a 200 sized asymmetric they can buy a 200. If they want one trapeze, a 29er, two trapeze a cherub or an rs800. Don't get me wrong, asymmetrics are brilliant in the right place (open water - windward leeward) but aren't 'the answer' to every class' perceived problems. On rivers and tidal estuaries, some of the 12s traditional haunts, asymmetrics are dreadful, and race nowhere near their handicap.

By the way, what is the perceived problem? An ageing demographic? Adding an asymmetric won't necessarily attract a younger target sailor as they quite rightly want lots of bang for their bucks, big fleets, even racing, a big party and good residual values. No development class can compete on several of these points.

As an 'outsider' I think the 12 hull looks the part but the rig looks a bit archaic (or at least the main does) and you do seem to moan about the longevity (or lack of it) of the sails.Rather than turning the 12 into a whole new class (like the cherub), why not address this, and throw a roachier semi soft rig like the RS300/700 have?

It isn't necessary to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Not having an asymmetric makes the 12 stand out from the crowd.........mind you, I'm sure having one would be a whole lot of fun!

Obviously I can't read either!

Has anyone tried having the mainsheet come off the centre of the boom like the niner boats. I was very sceptical til I sailed the 29er then the 59er, but actually it works very well. Not having falls in the centre it doesn't restrict the tiller extension, and having the crew work the main upwind was a good thing. (ok, so perhaps you can do two things well at the same time, but me.........)  

After an blowy afternoon in the 59er I was fresh as a daisy, I thought it was great. The crew however, declined to come again!!

Have a look at the RS700 sails (www.rssailing.com/fleets.asp?fleet=RS700). They aren't as radical as the image above and in fact are quite similar in shape to your current sails. Because they have 3/4 battens they don't flap in the wind but have a soft enough luff to allow you to do just that - luff. It makes them a joy to sail (badly in my case!).

Light wind sailing is so much harder with fully battened sails (bad workman etc) and sitting quietly on the start line is also difficult because the sail keeps generating lift even when you dump the sheet.

TC

Hoodies - don't get ones with hamster pockets. Useful yes, but uncool and unflattering.

TC

Can you not keep the 8 sq m of sail based on the main and jib triangles and say anything else is free? Have all the roach you can eat and as many battens for pudding!

After a couple of years the optimum shape would evolve (which I suspect would not be radically different, just a bit roachier) and the 12 would look a bit different and be a bit quicker in certain wind strengths (and probably a bit slower in others) and you could all go back to worrying about wingmasts.

Ted
No N as yet.

PS this is a lot more interesting than the Wanderer website where they are agonising about allowing centre mains and slot gaskets!

Thanks for all the advice. We are away for a bit now but will root out a 12 to try on our return.

All I have to do is convince  Sue that there is life after gennakers.

After a few years of sailing asymmetrics on open water and a couple of years off we have just moved to Bosham. Asymmetrics are not the thing to have here . The few that are about get murdered.

For those of you not on the South coast Bosham reach is a narrow tidal creek leading into Chichester harbour with about 100 moored yachtsand its fair share of mud. I've seen the club's only Laser 5000 attached to both over the course of the last year!

Winning here seems to involve protracted tacking duels in six inches of water while staying out of the tide and keeping moving in light airs.The handicap fleet is dominated by  Finns, Albacores (one of which I've been crewing) and one annoyingly fast wooden wayfarer. The Albacore has planed once in the last year (tho there was a lot of light wind about) so the words 'pulse', 'Albacore' and 'racing' have rarely met in the same sentance.

What boat should I buy? I don't have enough lard for a Finn and don't want an Albacore. More  importantly, what boat should I buy to give me an edge over all the old fa...(sorry) boys that have been sailing here for twenty years and know all the bumps and lumps. I though of an RS300 but I want to be behind the old boys not in front. Frankly I want an unfair advantage!

Looking at the racy thing the Nat12 has apparently become, does its yardstick of 1093 reflect its true speed? Is it really only marginally quicker than a Wayfarer?...or do you now have individual yardsticks like Merlin Rockets?

Sue and I can turn out at about 20st, need a good tacker, good in light air and good in the harbour chop. We don't really want a new boat but don't mind spending a wodge on last year's cast off.

What would you advise? A Nat12 or go back to the sea and the 29er? (I said that after 2 children, hiking would be much better for her stomache than a trapeze!) All advice and abuse welcome.

TC