Messages

Hi John


I always assumed the mast was moved back on the DCB and Hijack because the of the foil. I.E. With all the potential lift at the back of the boat the designer is trying to move the C of G aft to make use of it. If thats the case the new designs will only have a real advantage once the crew are at the back of the boat... which for most people is not the norm when 12 sailing. Or is there something much cleverer happening?


Trim tabs... thats a whole different subject and I guess if the boats at the front are using them they must help. Has any one fitted similar to an older design with any success?


So how much playing has been done with foils. The two questions I would have are...


All the angles. Why the sweep back and anhedral/dihedral. When I made ours its was just straight across largely for simplicity and strength but secondly because as the boat/rudder moves and the direction of flow changes over the foil it will create more or less left on each side... which sounded bad?


Height. I think all agree it needs to be as high as possible to interact with the stern wave etc but you dont want the tip breaking the surface... or do you? how high is to high.


Thanks all


Ian

Hi Nigel
Thanks for the post, very interesting.


I do wonder, as some one who isnt a dinghy designer but who has played with a foil on a Chapter, how much of the speed comes from the the flow manipulation and how much is just from the lift, less wetted area etc. It certainly seemed to us when sailing it that the biggest gains were from being able to move back in the boat early and to unstick the boat, and that should work with all the designs to some extent?. But then I guess its much harder to feel the efficiency's gained from manipulating the flow when sailing on your own, with no one to measure yourself against, as we were. 


I do remember lots of talk when we were last in 12's of just how quick the foolish's were with foils... was that all talk, or are they that quick and if so were do they then loose out?


Cheers
Ian

Thanks message sent

So as some one keeping an eye on the second hand market at the moment I could have sworn there was an add for Fatso on this site last night... but as I was out I couldn't pay much attention to it but i log on this morning and cant find it.


Am I imagining it or did it sell in 12 hours?


Cheers


Ian

Hi Tom
Thanks for your feedback, very interesting. I hope you dont mind me continuing the conversation now that I have your attention but...
What do you think the Hijack does then that the DCB doesnt... or is it just small gains etc
O, and in 12 life before foils, the Foolish's seemed to do all the winning... so why now the interest in Chapters.
Thanks
Ian

Thanks for the input
Not being part of the fleet I can only go by the reports and results that are published, and with the help of the boat database it appears the front of teh fleet is dominated by the DCB, hence the question
So do the Thorntons do well because they are very good, or because the boat is... and if the boat is why arn't more people converting old chapters... especially give the price of a new DCB?
Thanks
Ian

So its been 5 years or so since we were sailing 12's on the Medway and back then the DCB had just taken over as the design to have.


So since then what have you all learned. Although Ive seen talk of other designs using foils (we had a home made foil on our chapter) why arnt they running at the front? And I see there is now a Hijack design... whats that trying to do that the DCB doesn't, what direction are the designers moving in?


Hannah and I are keen to get back into a 12's now that our daughter is a bit older and perhaps leave our river and join in with the rest of you.... so Id be interested to hear about whats changed and what you all think we should get! (19st all up and cant afford a DCB)


Thanks
Ian

Hi all

 

Looking for some sails that fit our mast.

 

I'd be happy with something second hand but as I'm unlikely to find some in reasonable condition who makes sails to suit.... and who woudl you use!

 

Ian

We have owned Email for about a year now, sailing her most weekends, so I thought I’d update the database.

By the summer of last year we had a working T foil fitted to her (http://www.national12.org/blahdocs/blah.shtml) which once we got it sorted has been working well, and has certainly added another dimension to our N12 sailing.  

Lifes little problems have continued to prevented us from entering any N12 open events but she has performed well in all the handicap races we have entered.

For example we won a very well attended, light wind, Medway Marathon last year and have just had a second place in this year’s South Kent race, the other long distance open event held on the river Medway, which was run in a gale. The Sheppey weather station recorded it as a solid F5-6 gusting F7 and email handled it beautifully, she certainly is well built.

Unfortunately, as it always seems to be on these windy days, the pictures don’t do the conditions justice.

You would have a blast single handed as well because at 17st your close to the bottom end of the weight range on your own... so you would have all bases covered. I sail our Chapter single handed in anything up to a F4 comfortably and I'm only 11st!

Ian
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Hi Marcus

 

<font style="font-size: x-small;" size="2">It will work I guess, but will be far from ideal. Not because of the
affect on the foil just because, as stated earlier, of its affect on the feel
of the rudder. Its kind of how I started out but the one big lesson that I had
at the beginning was that what ever system you choose needs to be simple to
adjust, reliable and you need to be able to effectively turn off the foil at
any time in an instant. You choose when to pull it on but it’s the wind that
dictates when to turn it off so it needs to be full proof. </font>

 

<font style="font-size: x-small;" size="2">All that said if you look at this as an iterative learning
process, like I did, then what your suggesting will get you afloat and experiencing
the effects of a foil, and what it can do for you… its just that we can all
pretty much agree you'll be changing again it at some point soon after.</font>

 

Have fun

Ian

3453

I made ours as just a straight foil, no tapper, sweep or dihedral. But all of that was just for ease of manufacture. I cant comment on any performance advantage/disadvantage as we have no experiance of any thing else, but we have snagged a plastic bag on the T foil once which stopped us pretty quickly so on the mk3 I will probably include some sweep.

I would imagin that as soon you add sweep you also need to include some dihedral as well or as you rotate the foil for some lift you will be moving the blade tips down, away from there set position.

Ian

Just to balance up the argument...

 

I agree with the dont fit a conventional center sheet system
however sheeting from the boom works fine... as long as you dont have the block
coming from the boom to far forward.

 

Personally I tried aft sheeting and then gave up and went back to
off the boom. I cant vouch for how quick it is but we just sail, and race, for
fun and for me/us its just more fun off the boom.

 

Ian

it is the easiest way i guess, its just that wet knots, poor eye sight and flogging sails dont mix at the end of a tiring day.

I was hoping that some one would have found a nice simple solution.

Ian
3453

I guess the subject says it all...
Whats the prefered method for attaching the controls to the clew of the jib?
I currently have both joined to a thin line with a small plastic bobble on it, a loop of which is passed through the jib and hooked over the bobble. I hate having to tie knots here as my eye sight isnt that great and I find it a pain to untie but the bobble occasional gets caught up so I'm open to suggestions. 
Ian
3453 Email