Messages

Hi Jim
 
I am not sure what super spars use, but have personally found both 3M EPX DP490 and Gurit Spabond 345 to work well. Both are available in black for unpainted carbon. Marineware in Southampton will supply the Gurit version if you struggle to find any.
     
Alternatively, if you do not want to get your hands sticky you could talk to Ian Lovering at Ashdown Marine, 07971 922884. Ian does quite a bit of repair work for both Super Spars and Noble Marine and should be able to glue the track back on for you.
                       
Ian N3404

Thanks for that Ian!
I'll get some  of  that sticky stuff when I come over to GB in November.
Cheers and good luck at Burton week if you've entered. I'm sorry that I can't attend this year.
Jim.
 

Hi everyone!
Anyone know what superspars use to bond the luff track for the main to the carbon mast? Mine is coming adrift at the level of the mast foot. I've used "liquid steel" from Plastic Padding to bond it and so far it appears to be holding. However, over winter I'd like to try to get it properly repaired. It's not a good feeling to be out there with lots of wind and prebend and to hear a slight "ping" ....:-/
Any help gratefully received.
Jim. N3470,3130 and T1293
 

Is that all doesn't look like a great turn out. By the way have you got a camp site sorted out (so I can avoid it). By the way I hope Roly mo is no longer holey Mo and is back to being Wholey Mo. nd while I'm at it where do you get your surf wax from.

Google it! A good one's called "Sex Wax". I use it all the time and so does John Murrell.....
Cheers!
Jim.
 

Wind was changeable (understatement) and often light but the experience and boatspeed of the 12 helms (notably Howard Chadwick and Ian Purkis) won through in the end. 
Great atmosphere and organization at Frensham SC and lovely to see so many old and beaultiful craft doing what they were made for.  Tim (stand-in crew for Chadders in Starfish N2266)

Sounds like you had a really good time on the water Tim and from what you were saying on the phone the other day it sounded like my old University motto "Be Still and Know".  Keep on ghosting!!!!
Jim N3470, T1293 and N3130 (soon to be Tim's)
 

We know that it’s going to make those who claim that no new development is possible within the current rules look more stupid than they normally do.

Who has claimed that? It is not a question of looking stupid. I think it's more a question of concern over the medium/long-term future of the class.
Jim.

Whatever you do, do not stay at Broadway House Campsite not far from BCYC.  It was the worst night we have ever had with no late night control over the site so we didnt get hardly any sleep becoz of the music, screaming and chaos.
The managers attitude stinks who said the we were holding them to ransom because we asked for a refund.  We got an apology but no goodwill gesture.  They said they have owned the site 4 weeks, are aware there are problems and they have noone manning the site at nightime. We paid £24 for our little tent for the night and the worst nights sleep ever and dated and grubby toilets in the morning. 
So, at your next bcyc open meeting or you want to take your family somewhere nice with your caravan or tent, dont go here I wouldnt recommend it to familes!
If you do know of any nice campsites in the area please let me or James know so we can get some sleep in before the sailing!
Thanks
Emma
N3402

So nothing's changed. We had a look in on the site a few years ago doing a quick tour of GB going on to Dum and Mads in Devon, and decided not to stay. We drove further and reached Kingsbridge, tired, but relieved. Definitely no place to camp then. Imagine what it could be like in torrential rain:
The night was dark and stormy,
 the rain was pouring in,
the sausage slept by the baked beans in the tin.....
Cheers!
Jim N3470, N3130 and T1293
 

I know this is debating is really getting people worked up and I don't want to make it worse.  But I am a heavy weight, 14 stone. I have sailed 12s on and off since a child and having sailed moths and lasers still come back to them.  I have just got another boat and will race it singlehanded until my 4 year old is old enough to come out with me, next year maybe?  Until then I will race it by myself.  At 14 stone the boat absoultely flys and with enough mast bend and grim determination I can sail up to F5, just.  Last weekend I was beating Lasers, Laser 2000s and RS200s and the like on the water, it was great! 
I know the class has a strong history and it is a history of slow development.  It is not the Cherub class!!  If you want to be like them then there is an easy answer, go and get one... they are a very nice bunch.  And I probably will when the kids are a bit older.
In the meantime why not allow singlehanders to attend Burton week.  I know this heresy but look at this way, you may get more people sailing, more people going quick, it can be a seperate competition, no boats get devalued, nobody looses money, no rule changes, just more 12s sailing. 
Whatever happens I will still be out there by myself and I know that if its just me I will never be over weight.  It sure beats sailing a laser!!!!!
Giles
3393

Giles, I think that is a suggestion worthy of consideration. My wife would also feel relieved not to feel compelled to crew when my lightweight daughter is otherwise occupied in her Optimist. The day before our club championships we took Passion Pudding out to practice in a Force 4 and as a result of our lack of experience together and her nerves, we "kissed the water 4 times". It was cold, even in a dry suit. Since then she has not wanted to set foot in the boat. Can't blame her, but there it is. My daughter is absolutely keen, however.
I still think, that minor rule liberalisation medium term would result in the expansion of the class niche and this would be a reasonable way to go.
Jim N3470 and T1293.
 

I think that you will find that the optimum weight is driven by the laws of physics.  12ft is very short to carry much more than 22 stone.  The options to enable carrying more weight are very artificial and would still not be perfect, or would disenfranchise the existing class.  The positive thing is that 12's have different shapes, some suit heavier weights, some lightweights, so the range of competitive weights is quite wide.   Developments in rigs in many classes has moved the optimum weights down, look at Merlins or even Salcombe Yawls!
David

Agreed, displacement is still dependent upon that ancient Greek. But what options are we talking about here and how would other members of the class be disenfrachised? Why would these options be artificial? Surely, anything other than a change in length (no N11 or N13/14) would be a viable option.

Very well said Ian.

Jim
Being a development class is not all about constantly changing the rules, nor about throwing out most of those that have given us the fantastic boats that we sail. If you prefer thr tiltle restricted class then so be it - that title hasn't held back a few other classes that we could mention. Yes it would be great to be totally competitive  to the point where you have an equal chance on open water at 95Kg or so - the reality is that to be so you do need to find an lightweight crew - I know I've tipped thescales above that for long enough now, however it is still possible to get some respectable results even at that weight, especially on restricted water whilst hugely enjoying your sailing. Discussions aren't held in camera (though C.A.M.R.A. might be relevant!). Rule changes come about from the members. If you want to see changes the way to do it is by a proposal that then gets considered by the members. We could always add a bit of length, sail area, a spinnaker perhaps, oh and a couple of trapezes and we would have something which would favour heavyweights a lot more but I have a feeling that it just may no longer be considered a National 12!

Cheers

David, Thank you for your comments. I might come over as a radical, but believe me I'm not.
I am in the process of training up my daughter to be a lighter crew. Yesterday I got the feeling how it might be to be lighter. I went out solo sailing in a 3, gusting 5-6! Everyone was out on the water and it seemed such a shame not to have a go myself, since my crew was doing optimist traiinng for the regatta next week. I passed several interesting boats, including dragons, numerous long hulls who usually beat me in the Yardsticks in the lighter stuff downwind and I even got Passion Pudding to plane upwind! 
I love this class, really. What I don't understand is why, with the demographics on weight as they are, that we don't even it up for the heavyweights  just a little. I don't mean trapeezes and spinnakers and so on, just options on sail area and battens which might make the rig extract a little more power for those who want/need it and for those who might have trouble shedding it, then they might want to stay with what they've got, if they're going fast enough for them and need to depower in the heavy stuff. For those of us who are looking for more power to keep up with the lighter ones out at the front of the fleet, why not investigate this angle? It would make the racing tighter and you'd get more people I'm sure. We should be looking towards expanding the niche, not maintaining its size, or even reducing it (efectively doing nothing).
I can't understand why people talk about increased investment costs. If they are happy with their rig etc. then so be it. I'm sure that the real reason is that they fear that any OPTIONAL changes would result in a reduction in their competitiveness. I've seen here and elsewhere comments about arms races being won by the thickest wallets. The best boats, rigs etc. ARE expensive, but that's the same all over. However, winning races is more about skill and determination. Well I have the latter, now it's time to develop the skill a little more. Maybe one day the class might consider favorable rule changes enabling such options. Then I might shift a little closer to the front of the fleet....:-/
Cheers!
Jim N3470 (Passion Pudding).
  

Are full length battens better?

The Blaze class don't think so. The original sail had full length batterns, but they now all have a slightly smaller sail which is not fully battened.

I believe the reason for the change was to make the boat easier to sail. When I sailed one with the fully battened sail, tacking was interesting for a lightweight as there was no power in the sail until the battens flipped, then bang. I also assume that they were hard to depower in a breeze. This is a problem with the RS200 and why you have to have weight even to keep one up. the 12 is easy to depower and that make it a joy to sail.

One thing about putting more power into 12 is that you will please the heavyweights and upset the lightweights. The 12 is seen as a boat for lightweights, change this and you will loose the parent and child teams as well as the lightweight teams. the 12 has a niche, increasing power will probably change the niche and make it smaller.


Nigel 3490

Why not allow them for those who might need them - like me for example?  If both types of sail were allowed, would't the niche be expanded? I hardly ever need to depower and could do with fully battened sails.

Are you sure, whilst sailing at Rutland a couple of weeks ago the Solo Inlands were on and all the sails looked pretty white to me, my brother in law also sails a pretty new and very competitive solo and all of his numerous sets of sails are Dacron but he still gets through them as quickly as us! 

Fully battened sails do age quite quickly, but have advantages of keeping their true shape whilst they age and don't get damaged at the points where short battens do (I'm thinking here of the lower batten pocket of the 12 main sail....). This was perhaps the reason why the last sail rule change took place, in order to officially sanction sail making standards which were already in use prior to the time the rule was changed.
Whilst we're on the subject, the age of the fully battened sail is dependent upon how tight the battens are. If they are passive, as in the Tasar, serving the purpose of just keeping the shape taken on by the sail due to prebend, leach tension and vang pressure, generally they can last quite a long time. However, if they are really tight and used to actively keep the profile of the sail, re. 49er, Dart 18, Solo (?) etc, they do not last as long. I know from friends who sail a 49er that after 4 or 5 regattas they have to send the main sail back to the sailmaker to have the luff restitched due to the pressure from the tight batten pockets.
Fully battened sails however, only really come into their own when using a turning wing mast.
Jim.

Sorry guys - but what is the point of this?!? What is wrong with having the debate in one single where we all know the discussion is going on - ie on the NTOA website? Is this not a suitably 21st century forum?

Seconded! Everyone should be able to see the debate where you can avoid having "guests" taking the P**s....

Not 100% sure but didn't the first Big Issue use some sort of jib boom and was thus not fixed to the mast?  In terms of performance the flyaway stick makes sense, the Albacores use them, I think the Ents now also want to use it and I know a Firefly sailor or two that would like to have it.  Fly away jib sticks have got to be about the best / simplist performance improvement and means you don't loose the jib stick in a capsize!  I digress - but surely the rule should say a jib pole is allowed / not allowed end of?

Yes - and paradoxically it wasn't considered to be out-of-class either!!!!

What I was thinking when I posted that rule was more to do with the sense of ruling innovations IN. The implication being that if innovations aren't explicitly ruled in - to the designer - it looks like there is a risk of any new innovation being ruled out of spec simply because it isn't already in the rules.
It makes much more sense (to me) to only rule things OUT. Then it is clear to the designers that everything else is up for grabs.

Agreed. But don't forget the "not in the spirit of the rule/class" getout thingy..... You can smother just about anything with that type of excuse...

Maybe it prevents ones that aren't mast mounted.

Why would one want to do that? Any possible non mast-mounted jib sticks?
Cheers!
Jim.