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General National 12 chat / Re: Where to now?
« Last post by ifoxwell on August 15, 2018, 08:18:41 PM »
Personally I think it is the foils, and the fact that they do make such a difference that is stifling the growth of the class. And i say that as some one who likes them!

People on the outside looking in will see that to be competitive you need a modern foiled boat (yes i know there are exceptions to that statement but they are the exception not the rule) and modern foiled boats rarely come on the market... so you don't get new people into the class.

If we really want to stimulate growth and attract more people into the class there needs to be a greater stock of competitive boats so we ether get rid of the foils or find some other way of making the majority of non foiled boats competitive again?

General National 12 chat / Re: Where to now?
« Last post by 3513SL on August 14, 2018, 09:29:49 PM »

 9 boats at NWNW

We would have had at least 4 more if work, operations, moving house and Salcombe Week hadn't got in the way.  A few usual sailors missing from Salcombe Week too.

I've thought a lot about responding to this thread and won't yet, but I'll leave the below thought:

In 2013 or before, a friend and I were thinking about a double hander, the Lark was more favourable as we'd sailed one but by 2014 one of us had a 12 and by 2015 I had one too. Looking at the Lark Circuit for 2018, looks like we opted for the correct choice - we had 14 at Salcombe & 23 at RHYC, the Larks seem to just squeeze past 10. However, I know that Salcombe and RHYC seem to attract 12 sailors.

Interestingly for overall 2017 both the classes had 60 different entries over the series. The Firefly 'vines' series had 40 overall with 12 the highest turnout outside of the nationals. But they have a very active online profile - especially Instagram - which gives the impression of an active class. Any feedback on the 12's Instagram would be welcome.

General National 12 chat / Re: Where to now?
« Last post by smilie on August 14, 2018, 08:10:13 PM »

Yeah OK I did deserve that :-) but I was thinking if on arrange all boats built in the last 15-20 years are carrying about the same amount lead then we may as well get rid of it.

Absolute cost could be  an issue but I wonder when someone is getting into a class a sailor isn't really thinking how much a new boat costs. It something which might come later. As a result I can't see the cost of a new boat being a bar to stop people joining the class because there will be lots of other factors at play as to whether get a 12 or not.

eg. If I'm honest I have both looked building a new 12 and upgrading to newer 12 in my time I have been involved with 12s. In the end I didn't build a new 12 because I felt the rules were to restrictive and didn't give me the scope I looking to try out new ideas and test and learn about dinghy design and I ended designing building a new Cherub.

Then 10 years later when it came to considering a newer boat for mostly club racing and a few open meetings. Once again the we decided the 12 wasn't for us the, my wife found the floor height of the double bottom 12s uncomfortable and to be honest I didn't fancy living with the big winged rudder and we now own a RS200. Cost did also play a role because I'm pretty confident if put the 200 back on the market then I will pretty much get my money back. Which was more of a Brucey bonuses than deal breaker.

I do wonder how many people been through the same process and not plumbed for a 12.

Just in case you are wondering why I care how the 12 does long term it's because it's one of the reasons I got into sailing in the first place, taught me a lot about sailing and boats and recently was the boat me and wife chose to start sailing together (which I still own the 12).

Looking at the open meeting numbers for this year with 14 and 22 boats for the 2 Gul series this year, 15 boats at 12 Fest, 9 boats at NWNW and 11 boats at Salcombe with the only blip being Trent Valley at 5 boats (we would have been there apart from uni work got in the way). Turn outs to open meetings have been pretty good when measured against other classes. There seems to be a steady flow people popping up on here asking questions having just got in to the class. Leads me to think everything everything is heading in the right direction. 

Tim, Maybe your suggestion about less open meetings is a good thing and gives people dates people to focus on in their diary's.

It is a slightly shame though the 1 day restricted water open meeting might have died now.

I feel it would be good if the committee off the back of discussion at the AGM could publish a route map of how they plan to see the class growing in the coming years. It would also be good know if they positive about the future or not.

Tim on your comment about taking the design back to pre DCB I think both the foolish and Big Issue moulds have been chopped up so I guess there's no going back.

Boats / Re: N2503 Uncle Stalky
« Last post by Ridge Boats on August 11, 2018, 11:17:45 PM »
Uncle Stalky seen today on a driveway  in York Rd .  East Cowes IOW . The owner came out to meet me as i was looking at the boat and seemed keen to sell her .
General National 12 chat / Re: Crew needed for Burton week
« Last post by alann on August 10, 2018, 04:39:56 PM »
Crew sorted
General National 12 chat / Re: Where to now?
« Last post by Tim3497 on August 10, 2018, 04:20:34 AM »
Something which might stimulate some boat building would some rule changes?

I know this not a popular suggestion but what about reducing the amount of lead boats a carrying? In other words a weight reduction.

*bangs head on desk...repeatedly  ;D ;D ;D

I think the lack of new boats is more simply explained in terms of relative (rather than absolute) cost. Put yourself in the shoes of someone outside the class - would you really spend most of the price of a new Merlin (with the prospect of huge depreciation) to race in 5 boat Gul Series open meetings and a champs that struggles to get past 30 boats...?!

If the class managed to increase participation using the existing boats, then the boat building would likely take care of itself.

However I wonder if the class has passed a tipping point, with the most expensive ever 12s racing in the smallest ever fleets?

Banning the wings might render the DCBs and others uncompetitive, but they are probably already so depreciated that it makes no odds. Then as you suggest the rules could be frozen on the pre-wings era boats, of which the class has a large number of well matched and built examples.

I haven't read the 12 history recently and don't have copy to hand, but what bubbles up most readily is a sense that most of the major developments when the class was popular were things that made the boats easier and cheaper to build, sail and maintain. Clinker to plywood, cotton to terylene, wood to aluminium. Foam sandwich, carbon masts and dangly poles fit within this continuum whereas winged rudders seem completely at odds with it.

General National 12 chat / Re: Heavy crew set up
« Last post by gbr1918 on August 08, 2018, 01:28:16 PM »
I'm sailing a chapter, too, and really enjoying it!   At a guess me and Mouse are probably getting on for your total crew weight (Mouse's actual weight is a state secret, apparently!).  As well as Dare's advice about getting the fore & aft trim right (we can easily tell if we're trimmed too far aft - the boat sinks because the flaps don't seal all that well!), I'd suggest that keeping your rig powered up is pretty important:  I was quite bewildered initially that in breezes where we were just about hiked, the boat seemed slow to windward, but eventually I realised that I had the kicker on to de-twist the mainsail and get the boat to point, but because I didn't have enough mast ram pulled, the mast was bending too much and de-powering the main.   Similarly, it took me a while to realise that letting off lots of outhaul made the boat reach much faster,  and dumping both shrouds down the run so that the mast goes right to the front of the gate is pretty speedy too! 
On the plus side, chapters are supposed to be the boat if you're a crew at the top end of the weight range, so at least we're sailing the right thing!
Dave Cooper
General National 12 chat / Re: Heavy crew set up
« Last post by darebarry on August 08, 2018, 10:56:44 AM »
When I built my first Final Chapter whilst Chatting with Mike he sais the most important to keep the for and aft trim level. If you have a little extra weight on board it should not be too much of a problem, nice boats to sail.
Dare N3547
General National 12 chat / Crew needed for Burton week
« Last post by alann on August 07, 2018, 09:13:23 AM »
Hi due to a change in circumstance
I am without a crew for BW if anybody
Would like to crew my email is
General National 12 chat / Heavy crew set up
« Last post by Liz Few on August 06, 2018, 10:08:05 AM »
Hi All, my husband and I are new to National 12s and have recently purchased N3344 (Ella), a Final Chapter design. We have the option of sailing with our children as crews but would really like to do a bit of racing together. We realise we are a bit on the heavy side at 25 stone all up but wondered if anyone could give us some hints and tips on how to best set the boat up to take a heavy crew weight. Thanks.
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