National 12

Interesting debate on Y&Y Forum about "which classes will survive"  Comparison made about how Merlins have competed successfully against RS400s and how N12's have fared less well against RS200s.  See http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4308&PN=1&TPN=5 (http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4308&PN=1&TPN=5)

Couple of quotes - to save going through the whole thing
Then of course we have the poor old N12 that is struggling against the RS200 which gets huge turn outs.
 
It's a shame that the N12 has been a bit of a stick in the mud at important
points in it's history on both counts, this is leading to there current
difficulties.<!-- Signature -->

Two comments by ex-12 owners, so i guess interesting for that reason alone. 
They come from very different perspectives as i understand their points of view. I assume that Rick recognises the difference between the restricted class (Merlin) and the development class (12, Cherub, I14 etc) as he is in the business.  Darrel has always believed that we did not develop fast enough, hence he bought a Cherub, whereas the Merlin example suggests we should never have developed at all!
Very complex issues, as we all know and appreciate.
Antony

However, despite being 'restricted' the Merlin has developed at least as quickly as the 12, what with carbon everything, twin poles, big poles, big kites etc.
 
An interesting point is that most of the Merlin sailors that I've seen around seen to be under 30. Is this connected with them being seen as a lairy beast? Why aren't the slightly lighter versions of these people sailing 12s? Those who want 'well lairy' sail Cherubs and those who want 'less lairy' sail 200s.
 
Perhaps, as someone said earlier, we need to ask how these people perceive the 12, and what it would take to get them to have a go.

I am not sure there is much difference between the restricted Merlin and the development N12 rather than semantics, not in the eyes of the average RS200 sailor anyway ...
I think it's a shame where the N12 is; I like high tech, quality and fine design but the N12 has eveolved into a niche where by you need to be very light to compete ... I very much enjoyed sailing our 12 but we are over 21 stone so we could not compete. Plus I like big fleets and sea sailing.
I think you guys need to come up with a recovery plan before the decline becomes irreversible.
I would have thought the NS14 offeres some inspiration.
 
 

The N12 should be an attractive package because it is prettier, lighter, smaller than an RS200 (and a merlin)
The negatives are: it's more expensive to buy new, you need to be light for an adult crew, it has no spinnaker.
It's a 12 foot boat - the weight thing is tricky to solve - but carbon helps! Another suggestion is to develop a single hander handicap and allow single handed sailing at club level.
There is a tension between protecting investment and development. But while development is a possibility, some clever person could reinterpret the rules and come out with a winning design - which would get everyone to shift. The problem is that recently, any idea that has been discussed has met with the response 'thats not what the spirit of the rules mean...' and the impression the rule set is getting ever tighter. Perhaps secrecy is the answer - just do it in the current rules and turn up at burton week and reveal all!
It should be one of the cheapest ways into sailing, because constant development should devalue the boats fast and make them affordable (even cheap!) But see point above, there is definitely glass ceiling between single and double bottoms.
The spinnaker is easy to solve really - allow it for club racing and develop a new handicap. Keep it out of open meetings. And it is a retro-fit to any boat that could be DIY or a kit supplied by Aardvark, P&B etc. (new business for the sail lofts as well) - certain hull designs would be better for spinnaker, thus probably spurring on development.
It would be a very interesting (and novel) proposition if the N12 was a) pretty b) light c) small and d) flexible (solo, crew, crew with spinny)
Phil

"He's a heretic.....Burn him, burn him....". 
 
While I personally wouldn't want a spinnaker, the only thing I could take issue with are the comments about weight. Take 10kg out of the boat and you instantly have 10kg more crew weight available. Not a lot but a start.
 
The  argument for not doing this seems to be about protecting investments, but I can't see that. I'm sure the top 10 boats at Burton week are all carrying more lead than this (I speak from a point of ignorance here, but all new boats seem to be 10-15kg underweight), and at club level nearly everyone is handicap racing so losing some weight can only be a good thing. The only people who lose are those 12s with no lead who are racing those currently carrying lead.
 
In a development class, surely there should be no 'spirit of the rules'. The whole point is to use imagination or a bit of lateral thinking to move the design on. If, subsequently the class decide that a particular development is not in the interest of the class as a whole, then the rules get changed. (cf daggerboards.)

"Take 10kg out of the boat and you instantly have 10kg more crew weight available"
Sorry TC, this is wrong, ask any designer who knows what they are about. The lower the hull weight is the lower the crew weight needs to be to be really competitive. If the class wants to be attractive to over 21 stone crews again, we should be considering putting lead back into the boats and INCREASING the minimum weight.
Kevin

This has been stated many times before, and at the last AGM and recent Forum.  The class sought expert opinion on the weight question and was told that the only three ways to make the boat carry more crew weight were:
1.  A longer boat.
2.  A narrower boat.
3.  A heavier boat.
The people that provided this opinion were respected dinghy designers, sailmakers and others that have an amatuer interest. in such debate.  I have no expert knowledge but was convinced by the logic of their conclusions.  IF there was an easy solution to the low optimum crew weight and the increasing weight of the human race then we would have already implemented it!
Antony

Fair enough. I can't see the logic of it myself since the overall weight of the boat/crew package doesn't change, but bow to those with greater knowledge! I'll go and find a tame naval architect to explain it to me.
 
(It appeared to me that if I took the lead from under my thwart and strapped it to my back then the boat wouldn't perform particularly differently, other than I would have more righting moment.)
 
As Confucius once said, "Ignorance is only bliss if you keep your mouth shut".
 

Rather than looking at the factors mentioned as being 'constricting' we should view them as what makes the 12 special.  I will sail at Norfolk in Pie Boy mode with ICM, sailing with some 25 stone in the boat.  We hope it will be windy!  At Hykeham and YOSC I had my flyweight crew and we came in at 15 stone and I'm glad it wasn't windy.  I sailed at Windermere with about 18 stone in the boat and flew.  One of my boats has lead, I suspect that the other weighs well over the minimum (her certificate says so) but to be frank it doesn't matter at all to me.  What matters is having fun and sailing a boat which makes it so.
I sail 12's because I love the designs, the way the boats handle etc.  This year I've been racing an RS200 as well and havn't enjoyed that at all - I've found it an incredibly boring and numb boat to sail and it's made me realise just how much I love my 12 sailing.  Ellie and I have also raced our Mirror and whilst it's fun we both enjoy the space which the 12 gives us.  We use the spinny in the Mirror and whilst we enjoy that there is no way I'd want a spinny on the 12 - if people want to sail a 12 foot dinghy with 3 sails they can always buy a Cherub.
We need to recognise and accept that we are not the same as other classes and stop trying to emulate them.  Let's live up to the 'dare to be different' slogan!
RM

Seems to me you guys have no appetite for dealing with the decline of the class ...

Oh, I think I see. The boat would perform better if I just threw the lead away, and then better again if I was thinner!
 
With the lighter boat you could have a heavier crew for the same performance, but the optimum crew weight for best performance would fall. Is that it?

Quote from: Antony (Guest)This has been stated many times before, and at the last AGM and recent Forum.  The class sought expert opinion on the weight question and was told that the only three ways to make the boat carry more crew weight were:
1.  A longer boat.
2.  A narrower boat.
3.  A heavier boat.
The people that provided this opinion were respected dinghy designers, sailmakers and others that have an amatuer interest. in such debate.  I have no expert knowledge but was convinced by the logic of their conclusions.  IF there was an easy solution to the low optimum crew weight and the increasing weight of the human race then we would have already implemented it!
Antony

What about more/bigger sails?
A 12ft Skiff carries loads of weight ... if you don't want to address this and leave the class on it's current path then why not just say so ...

I think the boat is pretty much as it is - we need to accept it and find ways to get more of the boats sailing.  Having said that why not pass a rule to fix the weight for say 10 years and then look at the rule book and chuck out any silly restrictive rules that don't make much difference - example Meds' new boat isn't the problem above the waterline (??) that has no impact on hull speed (to the untrained eye it still looks like a 12 :o) - but the new design seems to be going well?  No radical changes then - would be a restricted class like the Merlins but I do think we have had more radical design changes in the last few years than the Merlin class has (maybe wrong...)
Other traditional classes are still being succesful - one of our Solo guys at the weekend (has Solo No 2 ;D) went to the inlands and there were over 100 boats.  Why do we have inlands in November?  Make the inlands in the summer when maybe those with family crews may be more likely to come to a weekend event.  Also the Solos have a training programme - the same guy is a coach and on the Friday did training.  I know some of our training sessions have not been well attended and doing training on a working / school day is difficult for families.  Hykeham was a good event - family friendly and a good example maybe to build on this to promote more attendance for next year.
BW - keeps coming up - maybe just to stuck on Burton week rather than National 12 Championships with the Burton Cup as a premier race.  Could we do a poll where we put in a number of options say 1-5, if everyone has to vote for each option then could we get a clearer view of what the Class will want to attend.
Should we organise more events around 'common' classes like the Fireflies / Ents - cost of travelling is increasing - if Clubs want to see enough return for holding events then multi Class may be the way to go (even some Nationals are run multi class aren't they on the same course??).  Is there even an opportunity to create some sort of group (like TASA) for 2 sail hikers - Firefly, Graduate, Ents, 12s, Albacore (?) are all pretty similar and often Open turnouts are relatively small - but this would boost the social side of things - which is sort of what boosted the RS classes to get mixed RS fleets.
If we all talk doom and gloom then isn't that self fulfilling? :P  Some changes are needed but its far quicker to change the way we do events than changes to the boat itself.
Complex issues as Antony said but a bit of radical thinking may get more boats out.  Now can I fit in a sail this weekend???
 

<div id="m11">"Seems to me you guys have no appetite for dealing with the decline of the class ..."Rick - I really do think that's a disingenuous remark.  The Class was here for 70 years before you came and had a go in it for a year and will probably be here in some shape or another long after we have all curled our toes up and the RS 200 is not even a memory.  I have sat on the Committee of the Twelves off and on over the last 35 years and what continually strikes me is the care, energy and devotion that committed Twelve owners give to the Class and its future, with no commercial backing from a trade manufacturer.  Threads like this emerge on the website every so often and the discussion in them mirrors to some extent the challenge in front of the Association.  If there was an easy straightforward agreed-by-all strategy for doubling in five years the number of Twelves built and sailed, we would have worked it out.  The reasons for the so-called 'decline' are many and complex - as we all realise.  Therefore a strategy that deals with all of them is impossible to achieve - but that doesn't mean to say we have "no appetite for dealing with it".My own feeling is that Twelves are now a niche class, but one that enough people still value and want to sail in.  I prefer to think of where we are now as a different state rather than a decline, and the challenge in the future will be to protect that.  Trying to be more like other classes doesn't seem to me to offer any kind of solution.Last Saturday, I was among eleven Twelves having a terrific day's close sailing at a very pretty club in the New Forest.  The oldest boat on the water was built 40 years ago.  The racing was intricate and technically challenging.  There was a great mix of old and young competitors.  The spirit and atmosphere was incredibly friendly.  Twelves remain sublime boats to sail.  Those are the reasons I was out there.  Let others sail Musto skiffs on the sea or RS200s at Queen Mary every weekend - I'm sure that's great too, but we don't all want to do that, and long may there be room for difference.Mike DN3496

I have to say to Rick that you came in to the Class for one year ( One Year )  I have now owned my N12 for 3 years and had my AC for 18 months, Only in the last 3 months have I really got to grips with this boat and well she is now going better than ever and thanks to a lot of people in the class for there help, the people that sail N12's are long standing members of the class they have been here though devolopment of the class have sailed these boats some nearly all there lives and yep there are very very good .these's boats need time to understand and when you tune it to that there are the best boat you will ever sail, Yep I would love to win the Burton Cup but that is not going to happen ,but that  is the challenge to be as good as I can be. You're type of sailing is to win win win and not every one want's this, the N12 is a great product and great people to look after the class, I wish I could get to more events but thats the joy's of living at the end of the UK (pz in cornwall). I would love to see more N12's around but this class is here to stay and will be here for a while yet. Some people need to work out that older N12's offer great fun and a low' ish cost an AC is a great boat I was sad to see mine go but she is being used again and that is more important.
 
James N3402

I am not trying to be disrespectful to any individual; but it’s fair to say I’m stirring it up just because I enjoyed owning the 12 and I’d like the see the class recover and if it was a class I could compete in I’d buy another.
The class currently has very low numbers of new boats built, small open meeting turn outs and very little club racing. If that is what the members want then that is fine; it is a members assocation, is this what you want? It is just a shame to see the class as a shadow of it's former status as one of THE classes on the UK dinghy scene.
It’s a real challenge to navigate out of the current situation but perhaps the class needs to make some bold changes in attempt to recover; if that is what the members want.
70 years of history doesn’t guarantee another 70

Well said James.

Here we go again. Anyone looking at the recent posts on where we should be going would be forgiven for thinking that we are a traveling class that only does open meetings.
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What’s wrong with club sailing???
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We’ve a dozen 12s at Spinnaker now and most of the time they sit under their boat covers. I know, I’m as guilty as anyone and I’m not getting at anyone in particular, so don’t take offence. But unless we get out on the water and show the kids coming through that a N12 SPARKLES, unlike a Laser that can just be a grunt at times, then they are just going to follow route of Oppi, Topper, Laser. (No need for Laser sailors to get sniffy, that’s a personal opinion based on experience. I sold a Laser to buy a 12).
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Mike, thanks for the post that epitomizes, for me, what N12 sailing is all about, friendly competition in a terrific boat.
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To me, at club level, the “glass ceiling” is largely irrelevant. Mike will confirm that we gave the DB’s a good run for their money at our Open and if the comments afterwards were that our Design 8, with a carbon rig, was a bit slow to pick up on the plane, then my defence is that we were pushing 25 stone in the boat, so what do you expect? My only desire for a DB right now is to avoid bailing out after a sloppy roll tack. (Must practice more) Turbo charge an AC and in most conditions it will give as good as it gets. Look what Jo Richards did with Bouncer (which was built 31 years ago).
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However, this is not a debate about different designs but one of perception, both within the class and by others. 
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Lets get our head “out of the boat” and start asking people outside of the class what they think about us. We already know what we think, this discussion board is full of it.
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We will then have some research that will tell us why other sailors do not or aspire to sail a N12. We can then formulate a strategy to address those perceptions (even if it is to do nothing, at least we will have considered the situation) Only then can you create a marketing plan to put that strategy into effect.
 
Do some market research, outside the class
Formulate a strategy and a plan
In the meantime, get out on the water at your club (and save petrol!)
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And don’t be so precious about the rules, it’s supposed to be a development class
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The age-old probllem for the class is poorly supported club racing. Clubs are where new sailors begin and where people see what's on offer locally. If they go to a club and see a fleet of RS200's or GP14's(!) or whatever they will probably end up owning one. If you want to get new 12 sailors in the class then you have to capture them when they come into sailing. The 12 has always been a good open-circuit class and most people who come in to the fleet and stay, get keen and travel, so club fleets suffer. This has been the case since I started sailing 12's 30 odd years ago and yes I am to blame as much as the rest of us!
So, I would argue that there's nothing wrong with the boat so why are always trying to fix what's not broken? I think it's beacuse we can look at the boat and compare it to other classes, then we try and go one better. We will never know how many new 12 sailors were attacted in vs how many were lost  tothe class in recent years when major changes to the rules were passed but I would guess more were lost than found. In a marketing sense it's not about the product but the channel to market and this what the professional suppliers like RS and Topper are so good at.

Quote from: 210I am not sure there is much difference between the restricted Merlin and the development N12 rather than semantics, not in the eyes of the average RS200 sailor anyway ...
I think it's a shame where the N12 is; I like high tech, quality and fine design but the N12 has eveolved into a niche where by you need to be very light to compete ... I very much enjoyed sailing our 12 but we are over 21 stone so we could not compete. Plus I like big fleets and sea sailing.
I think you guys need to come up with a recovery plan before the decline becomes irreversible.
I would have thought the NS14 offeres some inspiration.
 
 

 
So Rick with all the information on the website and the help of other people in this forum you brought a boat which I think most people would agree with is a boat for the lighter weights and may be a diffrent desgin may of helped you also give time to undersatnd the boat and what makes is go so then you could compete it is youre understanding that "you can't compete" you were 14 in youre first nationals  if that was me i would be pretty impressed and by this year you could have improved on that is is only youre opinion that you can't do better. Also last year was a very light wind week the year before at Portpean was a bit diffrent, so you can never have evey thing.

I sail by N12 at sea and love it ,wave jumping in a N12 is awesome.
Yes the class needs to move forward and it will as a class, as Phil said get you boats out at club level build good local classes and the rest will follow.;D
James N3402

I am a heavyweight in the class. I don't mind not winning. I just like to compete and join in the fun and games and good beer afterwards. This class is quite special because it has a long history and it will continue. What we need to do however, is to consider the reasons for decline from the aspect of other classes that have declined and then make a comeback. One good example is the Tasar. This is a one design, two sail, two crew ISAF recognised boat with a very efficient rig that has essentially not changed for 30 odd years. Over the past 4 years the numbers of actively participatiing European boats (Uk and Continental Mainland) has increased from around 95 to 400. The message that they put over is very simple: two sails, no cheesewire trapeze, no hassle sailing 'em. They also have the advantages of wing rotating masts, but that aside, there's not a lot more to it. EXCEPT they do have a MINIMUM CREW weight. That levels the playing field somewhat in regattas....
One of the comments from the guys whom I'm yet to meet are that in a one-design class, any development tends to ruin racing, since the idea is to make sure everyone has very similar chances from the boat handling point of view. What matters is boat skills. In a class like ours, (aside from losing weight in my case :-/ ) designs are there to make a difference. As well as boat skills. In other development classes, a new design doesn't necessarily make an older one unsaleable. If anything, it attracts more interested sailors to the class (provided it's interesting enough). The answer is not to be too greedy when wanting to resale. Also, don't accept too high a price for a new yot. As I've said elsewhere, we need to keep designing to keep on being interesting. Imagine if we were forced to still sail TRUE clinker boats, no offence to those of the vintage fleet, (not stuck on the side of plastic like the Merlins - some interpretation of style in a very leery yot). We also don't need "oh that's not in the spirit of the rule" thing. We're sailors, not lawyers. The class has to get upwind of this and fast.
As to Rick's comments about the NS14, the reason why the Tasar was designed was to eliminate the problems associated with light crews sailing better than heavier crews and driving all the heavier crews out to other classes, (even if they were more boring). The increased sail area enables the Tasar to plane upwind and still point reasonably. This combined with a minimum crew weight of 133 Kg (or carry weight correctors) makes skill a max. factor in a race. Actually, NS14 have an effective 9,3 Sqm sail area (i.e. less than ours) making it even more likely to be of an advantage for light crews. The wing mast makes the rig more efficient, but then this is just an advantage for light crews, who just plane away first from the heavy-enders at  the fleet's tail end. With only 9.3 sq m no one planes to windward under any conditions with a VMG better than displacement sailing and pointing.
So their you have my brain dump on this. I've tried to get rid of most of the garbage before it it the screen. Please excuse the rest - I was late to bed last night. Couldn't have slept anyway, with half of the street celebrating over the Portugal defeat by Germany.
C U all out on the water some time.
Jim N3470, 3130 and Tasar1293
 

I think ISAF recognised is a factor for the Tasar in Europe. It used to be the case, someone correct me, that continental European clubs would favour internationally recognised classes ahead of non recognised, to the extent that German clubs, for example, would always support at least one international class.

This has never been the case in the UK and we have had a greater proliferation of classes over the years.
That isn't a plea for recognition, just that Europe is a slightly different playing field

As I said recently on another thread, I think the best advert we have for what a great boat the N12 is, is to get sail them as often as we can. There are plenty of people around who are the right size to sail successfully in the class but most of them probably don't know we exist. We should forget about changing the boat but club sail (yes, I do - as recntly as last Sunday) and do the local multi-class regattas with only a handful of large well attended opens thrown in during the course of the year. Gill series event at Royal Harwich this weekend - should be well attended and sharing with the Larks & Fireflies makes it multi-class.
 
I seem to have resurected another recent controversial thread here ......
 
Kevin

As someone looking back, and considering getting back into 12 sailing, some of Mr Perkins comments do strike a chord. I can see two main reasons why there are small turnouts compared to other classes, the first being a lack of competitive boats. The Merlins now have 2-300 competitive boats, no wonder they can get a good number out. When there is a reasonably priced competitive boat on the for sale section, it is snapped up immediately, and that suggests the class is in good nic. 
The second, and at 12.5 stone my most important point is weight carrying ability of the class. My wife and I are now both in the smaller than average of the general population statistics. But we would struggle, on anything other than a higher wind day, as Mr Perkins found out. Although I suspect he would have done better if he had stuck things out a bit longer. 
This is the main challenge for the class, otherwise population statistics will leave you behind. 
Still, if someone had not got there first we would have had Crouching Tiger in the garage, and you will all be glad to hear the 12 is still regarded as the best boat to bring your kids up on at our club, as long as you are not Phantom sized, which unfortunately the majority of the actively sailing dads are!
Give us an extra metre of sail area, or a second full length batten, an I am sure you will never regret it.
Andy Mckee
Any reasonably priced foolish or DB chapter considered

And here's another constant, the debate on designs. If there ever was a disdvantage to being a development class is the constant worry as to whether you've got the right boat/sails/bit of kit etc etc. It's enough to psyche most people out before they start.

Last year I started a thread which went like this:-

"It is a fact that at least 90% of us sail in boats that are faster than us, or with the right bits, would be. So, for the sake of this piece, let?s level the playing field for a moment and assume that everyone has a carbon mast and new(ish) sails.

Right, what else is different?

The last time you raced, did you get all this right?

?     Self preparation ? are you race fit, have you put enough practice in this year, are you mentally prepared, do you have appropriate goals?
?     Boat handling ? how few mistakes did you make, was every tack/gybe perfect?
?     Boat tuning ? was the boat set up for the conditions; did you alter settings when conditions changed?
?     Tactics ? did you not lose places at marks; did you sail in clear air, did you have a strategy fro the race?
?     Starting ? were you on the front rank at the right end of the line?
?     Boat preparation - does everything work, good foils, smooth hull etc?
?     Teamwork ? were you
?     Racing Rules ? do you know them and did you use them?
?     Did you learn from your race? Do you keep a racing diary?

Make an honest assessment of what difference having Design A or Design B would have had in your last race.

Be clear, there is no silver bullet in terms of a boat that will automatically, by mere fact of owning a particular design, get you to the front of the fleet. Time on the water is hugely important, put the top 10 in just about any design and they would still be in the top 10. "

Read it if you like, there are quite a few comments that confirm my thoughts on false glass ceilings. 

Please ignore the bit in the the first paragraph, about carbon masts or sails. You can debate that on another thread please. My point here is addressing the fundamentals and sailing more

 
Right then
 
Hands up who has been to a coaching session this year?  I ran one, FOUR boats pitched up
 
Hands up who has actually been on the water for the specific purpose of practicing?
 
SO please don't complain about designs until you've addressed all the above points.
 
Oh, and I wish I was 12.5 stone again but I don't care, I enjoy it too much!

I'm just going to put in point for the lightweights.  With all of this talk of increasing the weight carrying capacity of the 12.  There are some of us who still just tip the scales at 10 stone and I've definitely stopped growing vertically and don't intend growing horizontally if I can help it!  Would inreasing the weight carrying capacity not just put the 12 in even more direct competition with the likes of the 200(I'd need a crew heavier than me to be competitive).  Us ligthweights may be a deminishing part of the population but the there isn't a massive choice of boats you can be competitive in at 10 stone.  So far I've only found the Europe and the 12 and I sail both (if anyone dares mention the devil boat that is the Radial my opinion of the 12 fleet would go down)!
Cheers Gareth N3162

Quote from: 305
 
SO please don't complain about designs until you've addressed all the above points. 
 

 
This thread isn't about how fast the boat is, (or how fast it could be if we applied ourselves as instructed) but how attractive it is to potential 12 sailors and what might make it more attractive to them.
 
What do people think of Andy's suggestion of a bit more sail (on the same mast, for ease and economy) 12foot x 12metres?

I have tried to avoid giving my opinions since leaving the class, however this is a debate that needs to be addressed;-

Firstly, I stopped 12 sailing because my daughter was less interested in sailing with her dad, therefore the only way to race competitively was to find an 8 stone, this presents a problem because most 8 stone crews are youngsters and whilst it is good for the sport to bring them on, it is difficult to sail with the same crew on a regular basis, particularly if they get into the GCSE phase. 

I might have stuck with it if the technology aspect had continued to interest me, for instance rotating rigs might have sparked off an interesting development route.

However I am now club racing in the Salcombe Solo fleet where we get 20+ boats out for club racing, and I can't help but think that it is the club racing aspect of sailing that 12's have got wrong in the past.  If the current fleet are interested in rebuilding the class I would suggest a more club centred approach is the key issue, for instance if all of the RHYC travelers raced every other week at RHYC, perhaps more sailors would be drawn to the class for the attraction of excellent racing, likewise if all of the Thames Valley sailors concentrated on one venue this might also have a snowball effect.

Earlier in the year there was a suggestion of an open meeting cull, if you had opens every other weekend there would be more oportunities for club racing.

One other point worth considering is that the front of the fleet have been sailing 12's for a long time and are extremely skilled at sailing them.  I would suggest that whilst lovely boats, the current crop of 12's are far more technically demanding than 12's of yore, when they were within the ability of many sailors, in addition, whereas in the past you could pick up a novice crew, this is not really going to work in a double floor boat.

I would think twice before making any more changes that make the class more technically demanding, unless the wish of the class is to become an open meeting only class and be more "niche" than it is already.

Best Regards,
David

It would be very interesting to hear the opinions on an increased in sail area, or improving the rig to gain more potential power. Ted and I both sail a single hander that is relatively over canvased for the size of the boat. This has achieved a boat that has a very wide range of weights, as those heavier helms become competitive at lower wind-speeds. The lighter guys, with tuning the rig effectively, and using better downwind speeds remain competitive, almost to the top end of sailable weather. Although the even shorter waterline on a N12 will give them a tendency to trip up when going downwind, this could be overcome with design innovation. 
The other option, with most of the top boats having so much lead in them would be a lead allowance for the lardier crews!! no., ignore that, too difficult to police.

AndyMck

I was trying to get across that people get too hamstruck on designs, open meetings etc. It's navel gazing and destructive.

Why don't we try a 12 m rig for this development class of ours? Would it make it more attractive to non N12 sailors. I don't think we know because I don't think we've asked them.

However, Steve Cockrill developed an 8.1 rig for the Laser for those who considered themselves too heavy for a std rig and it has sold. 

What about some trials? Any thoughts from our designers or sailmakers?

Why on earth do we have to change anything?  Can't we just accept that the boat is ideal for lighter weight crews, is great fun as it is and that we are actually doing quite nicely thank you?  Burton Week numbers seem to be used as the critical measure by some, but champ numbers aren't the only measure of success - numbers aren't falling for BW because the boat design needs changing, it's just because people want to do other things.  BW isn't the b all and end all of our class, and there's lots going on which shows that the class is continuing to attract folk.
There is a ready market for well priced boats (I've just sold my Cat within a week of advertising it) and we can turn out 35+ boats at weekend events like Hykeham which shows the strength of the class.  We've got an incredibly healthy vintage circuit, and well sailed vintage boats remain competitive for restricted waters,  with AC boats proving competitive on restricted waters and the sea.
If you want huge great meetings at impersonal venues, or think you are too heavy go and sail something else - there are plenty of other boats out there.  I'll stick to my 12 and sail it with all manner of crews because I like sailing 12's whether I'm competitive or not.  The key issue we have to tackle is how we encourage the boats in the boat parks and garages to get out on the water.
RM

I agree with the comments  on lighterweight crews - that is one of the reasons why I'm enjoying sailing again.  I am light and have short legs so struggle with the laser, didn't enjoy the europe and got bored in the RS200.  The N12 works well for my weight and is an interesting sail no matter which leg of the course you are on.  I also agree about the points to do with multiclass / socialising - I think that is probably why the RS are popular but look at the turnout for Pagham and RHYC over the last 2 years (standby for this weekend - but it sounds like there is going to be a good turnout...)

Clare

Roly, Just managed to stop my 5 year old sending you fan mail. However he is impressed that roly sails a 12!
 
We don't have to change anything. This thread is kicking ideas around because concern was expressed that while the open meeting circuit was doing ok, the 12 at club level was struggling. There are some clubs that have a fleet, but not that many. This is a way for those that don't go to opens, Burton Week or the AGM to talk to those who do.
 
However, think where we'd be if we didn't change anything, ever. Uffa Kings all round, anyone? Look at the picture of Mr Jones and Witch side by side.  A development class needs to keep (slowly) moving on and re make itself for the present day.
 
Nobody is suggesting 12 foot bowsprits and twin trapeze, but the sail plan now is pretty much the same as pre carbon mast, but now we can lose a lot more power than before. A bit more sail area probably wouldn't hurt the lightweights but would give the slightly larger amongst us a bit more drive on the transition to planing.

Yes Roly is a 12 man (or mole!) (my 6 year old daughter has made sure that Little Bo is a Mirror girl).  On a similar theme one of the Northern 12's used to sport a very trendy set of Tweenies as hull graphics.  Dave Davies' boy Sam spent hours drooling over it at St Mary's Loch when we had the Scottish Champs there!
RM
 

There is a hell of a lot of moaning that goes on about weight.  I am 14 stone, we sail at 22 stone.  I admit that to some extent we struggle in marginal stuff downwind against the best in the Class so we have been sailing a boat which is a 20+ year old design and is fast up wind in the marginal stuff (this is known as payback).  The design is a Final Chapter.  There are plenty of these out there for the heavier types.
We wanted to do better.  We tried dieting but are probably not committed enough for that.  So we are trying a different design.  Rules are rules.  No point complaining about them.  All the books say that more rocker carries weight better so that is what our new boat has.  It also tacks beautifully and we suddenly have a light wind rocket ship even with 22stone on board.  Ask those who were at Hykeham.  We hope to get higher wind speed from sorting out a T-foil.  This may be hope, but we will certainly get some speed from hiking hard anyway!
The thing is we are trying, investing, doing something different.  So can you!  We dont have lowers on the mas of the new boat.  Its not conventional, but why not!  Our centreboard weighs less than the rudder.  Who knows if this is right or not.  Why get obsessed with hull shapes when you can fiddle with foils, masts and sails?  But who does?
As a side issue it is my belief that heavier weights have always done quite well in the Class, although there are probably few 21+ stone Championship winners in 70 years.  There are plenty of race winners, more than enough to suggest that competence driving and crewing the boat is a much more significant factor than crew weight.  I might suggest that the easiest weight to sail a 12 well is 20 stone.  If you are flyweight or heavyweight you need a lot of practice.  There might not be that many heavy crews at the front at the moment, but are you doing enough practice?
To answer 2 earlier points - we have been practising on 2 occasions this year, although neither were formal NTOA organised events.  We are still making plenty of mistakes...  If I had not broken by arm I would have done another one already....  The other point is to acknowledge that frustratingly my boat does have a minor (above waterline) measurement problem which I am now getting sorted (broken arm means i dont need to go sailing...)  The rule that has been infringed is neither difficult to understand or a "problem" rule.  We should not be looking to grandfather boats that are nearly N12s, but rather all make sure our boats are legal.
The answer is not incessant fiddling with the rules.  If you have vision of something different, get on do it and demonstrate it.  Your boat will not be a National 12 even if it is nearly a N12.  Lots of National 12 sailors will no doubt be interested.  The vast majority will no doubt support your experiment, and if it is good they may even be keen for the Class to embrace it. 
Happy times to all.  34 replies already in one day - How many boats at RHYC this weekend?  If you cant make it, get on the water at home.
Cheers
Meds

Quote from: 305I think ISAF recognised is a factor for the Tasar in Europe. It used to be the case, someone correct me, that continental European clubs would favour internationally recognised classes ahead of non recognised, to the extent that German clubs, for example, would always support at least one international class.

This has never been the case in the UK and we have had a greater proliferation of classes over the years.
That isn't a plea for recognition, just that Europe is a slightly different playing field

Yeah, but the major comeback for the Tasar has been in the UK including Scotland. In German/Dutch speaking Europe (CH, NL, A, D and some of I (Sudtirol)) there are perhaps 40 boats. Tasars also suffer from the same kind of problem re. the Nationals as the 12 s do too. Perhaps it has something to do with treating the boat as a hobby rather than an out and out mean racing machine. (Although if you talk to Tim Knight, you might get another impression. He also owns a N12). As a regional rep. I´ve got to do something about this. Big headaches alround I can tell you. 
I think it has something to do with marketing, but I´m not sure what aspect of it. Next year the 49ers and 29ers(XX) are holding their World Championships on the  Garda Lake. Maybe we´ll be their as well, as a kind of spinoff. It´s very good publicity. Let´s see...
Cheers! Jim (Turkey´s in, Croatia´s out).

I heartily support John Meadowcrofts comments above.  Margaret and I total 21 stone (a fraction over at the moment - must work on that!) and do tolerably well in the Admirals Cup division.  By all means develop a hull and rig within the rules that will carry more weight but don't change the rules to suit the heavyweights.  If you and your crew are so heavy as to seriously restrict you sailing a twelve then go and sail one of the classes that we are not heavy enough for.

I'm an outsider that looks at 12s with interest. A few thoughts...
The trouble with adding sail area is that you need to add an awful lot of it to make much difference. If you think about it adding a a square metre of rag has about the same effect on power as about another three quarters of a knot of wind speed* - ie damn all. After all, for all the extra rag a Musto Skiff still gets annihilated upwind by an International Canoe... So sail area really doesn't make much difference.
The Enterprise Class tried adding a kite for Club raing only. Did thatwork out?
Speed doesn't shift boats. There were more trapeze boats near the top of the YY Champs attendance table 25 years ago than there are now...

just sail 'em folks. That's what counts! Oh and build new boats regularly. That's important too...
 
*because of force being proportional to the square of wind speed and all that...

Just thought I'd add a little comment as I seem to have started something.

My comments in Y&Y were made in reference to what makes a class successful. Successful means I think in most peoples eyes, big open meeting turn outs and national attendance. It can also mean large numbers of boats built, the two things are not mutually inclusive. But what I was expressing was that a critical points in a classes life, rule decisions have to be made that affect the class that may not be driven from a technical stand point. But it can be just as important to make changes due to changing sailing climate conditions. All classes exist in a competitive consumer space and must consider the consumer and threats to there share of that market from new products. I felt back in the 90's that the N12 were slow to react to threats from other classes. And are feeling the pinch from those decisions now.

I feel that the N12's rules do marginalise the boat and will carry on doing so. But I also feel that the N12 is unlikely to regain it's once great numbers. This has nothing to do with the boat in general or it's rules, but it's development status, economic, social and technological maufacturing factors. But I believe that the N12's could regain and increase numbers significantly if it were to put in place a set of rule changes that have a given goal. That could recapture the imagination of current and prospective sailors alike.

My vision for the N12's would be something similar to the NS14 ( but 12 feet long ). I think in that design space great things could happen.


Daryl

Well said Jim.

I think Rick has a serious point that we need
to plan a recovery but I don't think it involves changes to the boats
but more in the area of training, fixtures and club racing.  The idea
that we shouldn't do anything because 'were a development class and
will still be here when RS200s are history' and that we should accept
our reduced numbers as inevitable is rather complacent.  The Larks,
Fireflies and Merlins have all made big recoveries in recent years
without the help of expensive advertising so why shouldn't we?

 

Our boats are tricky enough to sail without adding
sail area - the most significant part of Ricks' experiences in a 12 are
how challenging even a top level sailor from another class finds 12
sailing.  Though I suspect if Rick had chosen a Chapter ( I'd guess
there weren't any for sale at the time) he might well have a more
positive view of the class with regards to tippiness and weight
carrying...


I think we tend to forget that our boats
are actually a significant step up in handling terms from the boats
that most club racers are used to.  It's probably significant that the
12ish shaped 200 has a decent skeg on it!  My experiences with Moths
and Merlins in the last few weeks  has certainly given the impression
that sailing a Moth upwind (lowriding) in a gusty 15+Kts is actually a
pretty logical progression from 12 sailing while the difference between
the Merlin and 12 is quite pronounced.  Wednesday evening racing was
touching F7 on the Exe - I was helming a Merlin for the third time ever
with a fairly inexperienced crew.  The rest of the very competent
Starcross Merlin fleet fell in while we just happily sailed round the
course to take the gun - at no point did we come close to going in.

So 12s in general are a step up from other moderate performance classes,
the DB boats are a step up again and arguably the Numinous and Foolish
are even further on (witness the amount of swimming done by very
experienced, long time 12 sailors in both these designs!).  This is in
no way a criticism of Bim - he's done a perfect job as a designer in
designing fast (and pretty) boats within the present rules.  The
Chapter, Big Issue and Annie Apple are percieved (imo - correctly) as
more forgiving but are also (imo-incorrectly) as slower than the
Foolish developments.  I don't think many would bet against Tom and
Grazz winning just as many champs had they sailed these designs
instead, which perhaps may have been more accessible as 'benchmark' 12s.


So where from here:

- Club sailing (again) - for promoting the class, but most importantly
because the trickle down of knowledge from experienced helms is the
main way that new 12 owners are going to progress on what can be a very
steep learning curve and not end up disillusioned.  How many new owners
do we lose each year purely down to the fact that no one has shown them
how to empty their single bottom boat after a capsize?

- Training - one or two full weekend events per year, big centrally
located venue.  As many experienced trainers as possible to give as
small training group sizes as possible.  Main focus to get new owners
to the point where they feel in control of their boat, otherwise
they'll quickly be lost to the class.

- Promoting a more accessible design as the modern 'benchmark' 12(??) - probably a
difficult one, I guess the tooling costs to change designs would be
prohibitive for P&B.  However Grazz has a double garage going
spare...and it must be time for another project... ;)  Commission a new
design for the class as a weight carrying/easier to sail boat of
comparable performance to the foolish???

T

Just thought I should ad some perspective to that last but one post, but not wanting to stir things, so don't take it the wrong way Jim. But unfortunately if we had followed Jim's advice with the Cherubs it would be dead today as he was advocating the same thing then. As it happens the Cherub is gaining ground again. But one could argue that it may have had a lot more to do with it's Publicity Officer at the time, but that would be blowing my own trumpet. And as far as Jim is concerned and it seems a lot of people, Advertising / Marketing are the devils work. But if you do it right you can make if work wounders. Mind you have to have something to spin if you are going to spin.
I would argue the point that a N12 is a step up. It is a step up because it's peculiar rules have forced a peculiar boat with peculiar handling and it is something you have to get used too. Rick didn't get used to it. I was forced to get used to it when I sailed them as there wasn't anything else around for my body type, now there is. I recently bought another N12 to sail with my son. And have recently sold it again. Read into that what you will. But I have sailed N12's for some considerable time - that boat would be my fourth one. The other's being - Design 8, Baggy, Wild Front Ear.

Where we are isn't working and all attempts to make changes are minor and aimed at "Getting people BACK into the class".
This is core to the problem and results in demographics where those who would be considered old guard in any other class are seen as the youngsters in N12s.
- I sailed Graham last year with someone I hadn't sailed with for 15 years and her first comment was "Where are the young people in this class?"
We seem to have a lemming-like ability to pick the least effective and most expensive ways to evolve the class.
As a result we are stuck in no-man's land for positioning.
As already said, people who want lairy go Cherub, Moth or Int 14 type boat.
People who want family but still race go RS where you don't have to spend so much time setting it up and the residual value risks are almost nill.
A 12ft waterline is too short to carry two normal sized modern people - this is a boat conceived in the '30s as a training class for the only other nationally known class then - the Int 14. It was therefore intended for two young people as defined between the wars = rather smaller than today. Every development since has made the boats more weight sensitive.
Reducing the weight of the boat simply increases the proportion of the all-up weight that is crew - hence INCREASES the sensitivity to crew weight.
The sail area is low and the boat is not excessively difficult to handle - a sail area increase could help and is something that could be easily enacted on existing spars at minimum cost.
Simple is good.
Cheap is good.
Robust is good.
Fast and difficult to sail is characterful - could be good.
As the situation becomes more serious and the average age becomes older we become even less likely to make the scope of change necessary.
We need more change not less. The class was at it's most healthy when people were being granted concessionary certificates to try things that were deliberately beyond the existing class rules.
The resistance that has built up as people have invested huge sums in expensive boats makes the established top of the fleet reluctant to change - and give up their advantage and investment.
Well that should have alienated half the class - but I feel better for firing it off anyway. Hands up those who expected daggerboards to appear in this tirade?!
Good luck and thanks to all of you still fighting the good fight for the class.
It is easy to criticize and often thankless to work to be rewarded with people like me taking cheapshots.
See you at Salcombe!
 
Derek  N3510
 

Quote from: 69
We need more change not less. The class was at it's most healthy when people were being granted concessionary certificates to try things that were deliberately beyond the existing class rules.
The resistance that has built up as people have invested huge sums in expensive boats makes the established top of the fleet reluctant to change - and give up their advantage and investment.

 

Well said. In a nutshell you sumed it up.

Derek,
I am not sure that you are right about the inertia coming from the front of the fleet or the people with the newest boats.  I am certainly not standing in the way of any change that the fleet believes will result in a stronger class and i have one of the newest boats around.  What is missing is a clear view of what the 'class' does want, and that is because as usual our 70 year old class has about 70 different views on that point.  You only have to read the last 42 posts to realise that there are a lot of wildly divergent opinions out there.
Antony
 

Enjoying the debate, although I am not convinced it has yet thrown up the universal solution that everyone will buy into.
I entirely agree with Antony.  I think that there is a substantial myth about those at the front of the fleet with newer boats not being prepared to invest.  Antony speaks for 3514, I speak for 3515 and I assume that Derk you speak for 3510.  So that means 3 of the last 8 boats registered dont have problems with change...  I cannot speak for others though. 
Anyone out there with a 10+ year old boat prepared to invest?
Meds

Quote from: 2

Well said. In a nutshell you sumed it up.

Design changes DO have a place in a development class. Cherubs develop quickly, we go at a snail's pace. Why? Possibly because those who sail a 12 are perhaps a little more conservative?
The last major design change to the class was the introduction of DB fully self-draining boats. Did anyone stand in the way of this and why? One interesting posibility would be to allow wing masts, diamond spreaders and a moderately increased sail area. Somone mentioned the use of dispensation certificates. I think we should use them now. Anyone who is prepared to take a risk in investment for the class' sake should be applauded, especially if it results in an interesting avenue to be explored. I also think the debate about daggerboards or not is a load of tosh. The dagger is more efficient and there are many classes with them. Either you bash up the dagger, or you rip your rudder off, either way there's expense involved. Rather that than having to compromise on efficiency. The classes with them don't have problems with resale, possibly because the boats are not overpriced in the first place...
Braindumping again.
Jim.
 
 
 

Quote from: 2

Well said. In a nutshell you sumed it up.

Owning a N12 is "high maintainance" compared to owning most dingies; and expensive so if people are going to do it sailing the boat must offer somthing more than other classes  ...
The n12 to me looks like an old fashioned boat built with high tech materials; the designs are all many years old and the sail plan even older.
You many struggle to improve the weight carring a great deal but the sail plan could be brought upto date with a rotating mast with fully battened sails like the NS14.

It is a healthy debate whatever the outcome.
The frustration is that the debate has continued for so long without a concensus emerging that it should, by now, be apparent that if a decision is not made to make a significant change that inevitably alienates a significant number of people, nothing will ever change (improve) the current downward spiral.
We do risk a version of analysis paralysis where those who shout loudest are those trying to stop any particular evolution and hence no evolution occurs.
This is not really the spirit of a development class which should be "go-until-told-to-stop" not "what -am-I-allowed-to-do".
Do the majority WANT the status quo?
Do you want a true development class?
My boat is new but is exactly as I would have built it 10 years ago.
Derek 3510
PS
I accept that people don't build their own boats any more except for a very few people. And that people don't have time to do all the things involved in developing more innovative boats - that is why RS's and similar production boats are very well positioned for today's market.
My point is that we cannot, with a development class, compete in that sector.

Quote from: 201

The last major design change to the class was the introduction of DB fully self-draining boats. Did anyone stand in the way of this and why?
 

It took a long time ( Ask Mr Peebles ). And could be argued that the time it took was a resultant factor of today's situation. And if at that time other rule changes had been made this debate, I suggest would not be happening.


As for rule changes as of today I would suggest allowing a little more gunwale over hang, a reduction in rise of floor mid length width measurement and a different way of measuring your sails whilst freeing up the sail plan ( that doesn't mean spinnakers! ). I don't think dagger-boards are a good idea.

Rick
Where does "high maintenance compared to other boats" come from. Explain
Yes, if you have a wooden boat you have all the joys of varnishing etc, but a glassfibre boat? Surely not.
 
There is more CHOICE, you have to make one.

There is more FREEDOM, you are not constrained by rigid class rules that only allow specific fittings in specific locations

OK, if you want, go buy one of the standard off the shelf, don't have to think about it packages from the likes of Laser, Topper or RS, you can even buy rotomoulded boats that are built like brick whatsits that are all but indestructable

If you're talking about sails, I don't see that as any more expensive than other classes and if you want to talk about Lasers, it's a brand new sail for every regatta at £465 a go because one windy race and they are shot.
 
This is not that type of boat and long may it remain like that
 
There are some popular myths and serious issues about perception and demographics that need addressing and at Spinnaker we have a shortage of crews that is keeping people from being on the water and probably has something to do with both the other factors
 
From Meds new boat, it looks as if the heavywights now have some hope so lets get on with tackling the issues
 
. . . we need a plan
 

Quote from: 305 
. . . we need a plan
 

And doing nothing again is not it.......................

......and a plan has to based on
 
Market research -  which means talking to people inside and outside the class and recording those views
 
from which a Strategy can be developed
 
from which a Plan can be formed.
 
There is an old adage that says if the only reason you can think of as to why you are doing something is that you have always done it like that, it's time to question why you are doing it.
 
Now the answer to that question might be that you have been doing the right thing all along and nothing more need to be done, you've just forgotten the precise reason . . . but my gut feel is that that wouldn't be the case here.
 
It's more than clear from this thread and others that there is not an easy or quick solution but delay in the process will not help our cause

Quote from: 78I think that there is a substantial myth about those at the front of the fleet with newer boats not being prepared to invest.  Antony speaks for 3514, I speak for 3515 and I assume that Derk you speak for 3510.  So that means 3 of the last 8 boats registered dont have problems with change...?
Meds

Ok. Two of those boats are built to a plan from 1996. I don't know how yours differs Meds, but if it is a true weight carrier, it must be fairly radical. ;).
As for real design changes, I agree with Rick re. some kind of rotating rig setup, fully battened and a 1/3 increase in effective sail area. I personally would like it set reasonably low, so we don't have to use a trapeze. NS14 have it high up to compensate for their 9.3 sqm. The wind speed is higher up top in laminar flow.
I really like 12s, but we're going to have to do both marketing AND redesigning to get away from the pontoon and avoid ourselves getting "Boxed in" by rules. ('scuse the pun :)). Otherwise we should get used to the accusations that we're really a restricted class (design, viewpoint, whatever) and then take the rap and a long, slow run downhill. I think designer dispensations should be the order of the day. We have been able to accommodate all sorts of different viewpoints, designs and subdivisions into the class. Dispensation enables a boat to be built, tested and sailed afterwards, even if it is a flop. Let the people try before they decide, rather than decide before they try. Oh, and no more "you can't have that" type of rule.
 
Jim.
 

So who is going to put their head above the parapet and volunteer to move this forward - the likes of John, Antony, Graham and everyone else on the committee are already committing huge amounts of time to the class, just to keep us where we are. We shouldn't rely on our already overloaded volunteers, we need some new people to either lighten the load of the current committee, or take on the new stuff.

I guess we will be damned if we do something and damned if we do nothing.  I get the feeling that there the desire within the class to move our boat forward is gaining momentum and I would urge the powerbrokers to make it happen.
     

I would love to Invest Meds, I would love to Buy Max, but money isn't there and at the end of the day for me at the minute is to sort out a wedding date and get enough money to get married !!!!! but as Antony knows I have talked about building my own ,again it's down to money, But have a new job next week building powerboats so may have found some space just need to save really hard for a few years first,
 
I don't know Why some people say they are a high maintance boat as since we have got the new mast and sails two years ago I have not spent any money apart from this year as I need a new cover which every boat needs from time to time.
James N3402

My $0.02 worth.
Looking at an example of a class that has died (apologies if you sail one).... The Marauder was reinvented from the Mirror 14, by adding a Genoa and venting some tanks. It became powered up and great to sail on the sea.  The next change was the introduction of the first GRP boat which killed the fleet.
 
The reason I raise this is that change can make it go either way.
The Vintage and AC fleets help protect against this, but could the fleet still operate with four categories?

My view is that we need to build more boats.  This results in a larger number of newer competitive boats and more people wanting to use them on the water, a healthy second hand market and volume for the builders which allows costs to be kept under control.
The problem here is we are the ones who have to build them or get them built :)

If you are really driven then build out of class with your ideas for change and prove the concept to the rest of the class.

I was also a little bit surprised to read that 12s are high maintenance.  In 8 years of owning 3431 I have only ever bought sails every two years and occasionally seem to need a new cover/trampoline for the squirrels.  As James said all classes need new sails and new covers every now and then.  I probably do 30 minutes of rope swapping every two years on the Saturday of Burton Week and she seems to survive remarkably well.
 
And in answer to Meds' question - I have a ten year old boat and would invest in something different if I thought it would have any positive impact on my sailing.
 
And the racing on Sunday made my two hours of boat maintenance in the last 8 years all worthwhile.

Quote from: 189I guess we will be damned if we do something and damned if we do nothing.  I get the feeling that there the desire within the class to move our boat forward is gaining momentum and I would urge the powerbrokers to make it happen.
     

Let's try sailplan and rig first, hull later. A 1/3 - 1/2 increase in sail area, fully battenend, passive .Sailplan low set, but enough to start planing well to windward, wing mast deck stepped with boom arrest arm (NS14/TASAR type). Mast flexible enough to bend significantly along ist entire length, just with the kicker and independently of the amount of pull on the mainsheet. Daggerboard no probs with water displacement - never mind the resail value. Certainly not boring and worth trying.
Remove the prohibitions/inhibitions.
Just a thought.
Jim.

Having moved from a Graduate to a Crusader 88 and now to a Feeling Fooling my 21 year old daughter and I love the 12 but have a few observations; weight does make a massive difference to the modern 12, last week I crewed for my daughter in the first two club races and having won both of these she ditched me for a new club member who must have been 4 stone lighter, result she won by over 3 minutes, maybe I'm just a crap crew but the boat was noticably quicker in light airs on every leg. Second why does the jib have to be so pathetically small? (the Grads was twice the size) I know the fashion is for big mains and small jibs but why not have both and maybe that would allow for some weight to be put back in the boats so light weight partnership were not so essential.
This new 12 does give me a boat that's as exciting as a Laser that I can sail with my daughter on restricted waters but to be competitive in a 12 there are too many factors, (cost and weight being the big ones), keeping a lot of people from joining this great class.
Andy P N3465

"I was also a little bit surprised to read that 12s are high maintenance." 
You misunderstand (or I explain poorly) ... what I am saying is they are hard work to own compared with mass market boats not that things wear out a lot ...
They are hard to find & buy, you have to make choices over components many of which are not freely available and your competition may have spent hours bimbling to gain an advantage etc etc ... of course many people see this as part of the joy of ownership in fact most people who own one will do more bimbling than sailing.
The point is, all this has to be worth somthing in return...
If the class is to recover in any sort of numbers then it needs to do somthing clearly visible that the sailing public will understand, tinkering with the 3/4 height will go noticed by no-one.
From what I read here everyone is happy as it stands (well most) and I wish you well with your future ...

Quote from: 210
If the class is to recover in any sort of numbers then it needs to do somthing clearly visible that the sailing public will understand, tinkering with the 3/4 height will go noticed by no-one. 
...

Well, that's not the only suggestion that's been made on this discussion foren... see previous.
Cheers!
Jim.

On the contrary Rick, with a couple of exceptions everyone who has contributed to this thread wants to change something about the class or the boat, rig, hull, numbers sailing, weight, perceptions, attitudes and you can go on.
 
  
If you hadn't noticed, this is a development class (OK some debate about whether it has stopped developing) and that's probably the one thing that unites everyone and something that they do not want to change. The dinghy marketing companies' telephone numbers can be found from their websites. 
  
The problem is sorting out a way forward out of all the options that have been suggested!

Perhaps Rick is suggesting we are all happy with the 3/4 height ;)

Can I make a plea for the lightweights again. This time the ultra lightweights (around 16 stone).
We sailed a 200 in a F3 and ran out of options to depower! A close reach was going nowhere as you can't dump a fully battened main. The 12 is easy to depower (and if your heavier power up). This means we stand a chance of sailing a 12 in a reasonable breeze and at least have some semblance of contol. Alright we are still fully depowered in a F3/4 but in control. The last thing the light weights want is more power. We even survived the Bristol squall this year (good F6 for those not there), lost a few places but we were in control (and in a Numinous). 
As Tim said, the 12 is tricky boat to sail and very rewarding because of that. My daughters have sailed 200s, 420s, 405s 29ers, 12s and the sailing properties of the 200s and 420s are not appreciated. They both like sailing boats that are really responsive.
For those who aren't aware, the heavier you are the more stable the boat is, momentum issues and increased GM (waterplane area). so any adding of more sail, etc will make the boat even more tricky for lightweights and for prospective new class members. We know of several very good 200 people who think 12 sailers are mad for sailing such tippy boats.
One of the major issues for new comers is the speed disparity between old and new boats, an old 200 can be competitive against newer boats if sailed well. 200s are not cheap due to this reason. Old 12s are at bargin prices, but don't really serve as an introduction to modern 12s, this gives a problem for someone buying an older boat if they expecting to jump into a 12 and perform.
As regards youngsters, the old way of doing things was introduction at club level. the older helm picking up a young crew and training them up, the young crew then gets a 12 and so the cycle continues. not any more, this has mainly collapsed due to the RYA and the junior and youth training schemes. This has changed the face of club sailing and there are lots of parents who do the junior/youth circuit instead of sailing (like we did). The youth aspiratrions have changed totally and their expectations are more for big fleet racing in off the shelf boats. These boats are all "standard" designs with a very narrow and specific band of tuning parameters and sailing techniques, totally unlike the 12 where you can adjust everything and it follows most of the standard perceived ways of tuning and sailing fast (just unstable which most of them won't be familiar with). So this means they can't get in a 12 and do well. 
There is also a massive falling by the wayside, but this is very often due to not sailing parents, this is an area that people looking for crews could exploit.
Happy sailing
Nigel 3490

It might be instructive to see where the developments are focussed recently in unrestricted classes. Off the top of my head - an almost certainly not an exhaustive list

• Waterline beam - lower wave making whilst retaining the beam. Restricted by the rise of floor measurment give or take a bump, and the no hollows rule.
• Sail plan - restricted by the complex sail measurements, and yes that does have an impact on top end speed - evidence the cherubs who carry more righting power on twin trapezes and do go faster than pre 2005 rules with smaller sailplans.
• Daggerboard fitted with hydrofoils. Clearly the twelve won't fly but there is no room to experiment with foils to reduce the speed at which the boat planes. Restricted by the anti daggerboard rules.
• Capitalise on new materials and reduce the 'size' of the boat to reducing weight to promote upwind planing or flight. Restricted by the weight rules.
• Rudder fitted with T-foil. An area where 12's are experimenting.

So as far as I can see the rules do prevent N12's adopting or developing all but one of the recent innovations in other classes. I'd say then that its entirely fair to blame the rules for a lack of change in the class. Yes, it's probably right to say that there is potential for speed improvements within the rules but its asking a lot of the class to innovate in isolation. That is the main reason why no-one has created a ground breaking innovation within the rules for a long time despite some major innovations in other development classes.
I'd even go a bit further and say that 'most' of the recent (last 20 yrs) N12 rule  changes were formulated initially to stiffle a development - evidence? daggerboards is definatly a case, ..... mast weight  preventing the full development of carbon as a spar material ..... weight restrictions as new materials become available .....
Seems to me that it is unreasonable to expect the class to create major improvements in speed and efficiency within the rules simply because the class wants to restrict anything that changes the boat. Presumably there are somethings about the class that is held dear and is too sacred to interfere with. This gives the designer a unique set of restrictions ... and frankly there are easier classes to apply their imagination to. I guess we ought to be clear and open about what is sacred in the 12 and have a discussion about whether those sacred ideas are out of step with the modern world.
3 for starters.

• The shape. we are round and we will always be round.
• The sail plan. we will never have a spinaker even if we'd be fast and be able to carry heavier crews.
• The centreboard. We will never use daggerboards even when other classes are growing and regenerating by attaching foils to them (moths and RS600FF's)

I'm sure we can add others.
 
Matt
N3486

perhaps asking people in the class what they would change to improve things is the wrong approach, they obviously love the class as it is and feel little need to change everything or indeed anything. Perhaps it would be better to ask people who have left the class their reasons for leaving to give a better indication of the health of the class.
In my case the reasons were;
*cost, with two small kids the cost of a competative boat is just way too much
*the one design nature of the class, Final Chapter 20 years old
                                                    Feeling Foolish 10/15 years old
                                                    Big Issue          10ish years old
there is no excitement in the class, no rebels trying to exploit the rules.
When I started sailing 12s back in the very late 70s there was a new design every year, some failures some big hits. Look at the number of boats built  by amateurs and the number of boats in general, as oppossed to 4/5 or 6 boats for the last 10 years. The 12 is just TOO expensive to allow the average sailor to experiment and the desire to experiment seems to have died along with my enthusiasm with the class. Having to find anorexic crews is also a huge disadvantage at many small clubs.
Dagger boards, rotating masts an increase in weight to allow more people to build their own designs, anything to bring back some excitement  

"Perhaps Rick is suggesting we are all happy with the 3/4 height ;) "
The 3/4 height is excellent ... (//blahdocs/Smilies/smiley.gif) (can't make the quote feature work)
 

Didn't Merlins try rotating masts a few years ago?  A boat was build in Cornwall by Fibire Fusion with a canting and rotating mast don't think may merlins have this !!!!!! may be outside of class rule but not sure!!!!
James N3402

I<font style="font-size: small;" size="3"> have to admit that I so not see the value as some people do in the idea of adopting rotating masts. Pardon my lack of knowledge of physices, but I would think that the increased efficiency of the rig would be small compared to the hassle of having to change several things to do with the mast. Diamonds would have to be put in to stiffen things up as you would not realistically be able to have spreaders. The Fireflys had rotating masts like this and then they got rid of them in favour of a system similar to ours. Jim you could probably give more of an insight into the benefits of rotating masts than most of us. We would also have problems with the dangly pole if we went down a rotating mast line which I think would be a retrograde step as this has to be one of the best moves forward with regards our rig that we have made in the last thirty years.</font>

For me the simplification and freeing up of some of the more complex measurement rules is the way forward.  I suspect rotating masts could be a turn off for a lot of people as they are perceived to be complicated. 
I am not bothered about a major hike in performance but would be happy with a modest increase in sail area with a nice fat headed sail, (maybe fully battened or semi fully battened) a worthwhile reduction in weight (so that we don't have to carry Kilos of lead around) the removal of minimum mast weight and the option of a daggerboard for those that want it.
If the outcome of any changes is a 1970s style design rush resulting in at least one modern day double bottomed river rocket I for one would be mega happy!! 
There will be winners and losers but I think we have to do it 

Can't help but think that you are caught between a rock and a hard place ...
You could do a lot worse than looking at the Merlin Rocket and Solo class as models, since these are two classes that have managed to buck the decline of non-manufacturer's classes.
The Merlin's are virtually one design now, and the variations between the Kevin/Linton boats and the Winder are marginal.
The appeal of these boats (Solos & Merlins) are that they are virtually one design, but with enough variation in the rigs to appeal to a wider weight range than the m.o.d's.
Both have good resale value's and minimal depreciation, making the purchase of a new boat a safe bet, but making second hand boats very saught after.
Both have a good network of Club racing, feeding through to well structured (and quite selective) open meeting circuits.
Both are getting 80+ turnouts at Championships.
It is also inescapable that these classes are catering for an ageing dinghy sailing population, and whilst there are young sailors coming along, they are either getting into these classes because of the kudos of racing in big fleets or because they are second or third generation.
It seems to me that you either need to tear up the script and start again, with a boat for today that is attractive to the current N12 cohort ... and the one bit that keeps coming up is that 12ft is too short for today's market (after all Mike Jackson didn't design a 12' Lark and Phil Morrison didn't design a 12' 200)
 
or you need to get rid of the notion of being a development class (which seems unattractive to todays market) and either push an existing design (P&B Feeling Foolish?) which is thoroughly modern and comparable with the sucessful Merlin and Solo product or commission a new production boat to sell into your perceived niche ... non spinnaker, non trapeze performance dinghy for couples and parent child combo's suitable for restricted and open waters.
Whatever you do, you need to cull your open meetings to free up people's time to promote club racing, because if you don't tackle this you will not get the virtuous circle required to turn the tide.
For the record, the prime reason that I sold my 12 was because picking up a sub-8 stone "non-family" crew did not work for me socially.  Reading more into this, whilst a lighter 12 was great to sail, it is that very weight reduction that has marginalised heavier weight crews, demonstrated by the reducing Tubs weights, so you now have a class where the optimum crew weight is going down, while the national demographic is increasing.
All the best,
David

Graham posted this elsewhere, but this is our market research - now around 18 months old...  http://www.national12.org/surveys/70th_Census/survey_70th_Census.shtml (http://www.national12.org/surveys/70th_Census/survey_70th_Census.shtml)
Thanks for all the contributions and keep your ideas coming.  My view is that ideas should be trialled.  It is a much easier lobbying exercies thereafter.  Do it.  We all know how inexpensive an older boat is, so buy one, demonstrate your ideas and bring it to a meeting or just tell us about it here.
My understanding of the following reasons for current rules is as follows (I stand to be corrected):
prohibition of daggerboards - not good for running aground and the 12 is frequently sailed in shallow waters.  in terms of speed you would prefer a daggerboard over a centreboard as you would not have to carry the excess water in the centreboard case.  The counter argument is that a daggerboard case is easier to build.
further weight reduction - the last round of weight reduction has coincided with less overall activity in the Class and the Class in AGM has agreed that further weight reduction at this time would be unhelpful.
the class has always had a minimum mas weight and centre of gravity rule and this was retained in the early days of carbon masts.  It was felt that weight should be reduced but not to the extent that masts became an arms race.  The intention of the weight limit is to control cost.
Finally, if you want a double bottomed river rocket, my (possibly biassed) suggestion would be a Paradigm 2

I<font style="font-size: small;" size="3"> have to admit that I so not see the value as some people do in the idea of adopting rotating masts. Pardon my lack of knowledge of physices, but I would think that the increased efficiency of the rig would be small compared to the hassle of having to change several things to do with the mast. Diamonds would have to be put in to stiffen things up as you would not realistically be able to have spreaders. The Fireflys had rotating masts like this and then they got rid of them in favour of a system similar to ours. Jim you could probably give more of an insight into the benefits of rotating masts than most of us. We would also have problems with the dangly pole if we went down a rotating mast line which I think would be a retrograde step as this has to be one of the best moves forward with regards our rig that we have made in the last thirty years.</font> 
With rotating masts you get a more efficient rig. Less turbulence caused by the mast, and then more suction later on caused by turbulence and then reattachment (a paradox, but it works). A rotating mast doesn´t work alone however, and one of the things to change would be a fully battened (but passive) main as well as a simple mechanism to force the  boom to follow a precise angle to the mast. i´ve just refitted one to my Tasar, since the previous owwner didn´t know how to use it and set it up like a Fin, with the boom following the plane of the mast. The mast would have to be also very flexible, to enable precise changes in sail shape to be made using vang and mainsheet. Re. the dangly pole, I do know of one or two Tasar sailors who use something similar and it works, with no problems with windage. Ok. it´s not class conform for them (1960´s style whisker poles are still in ), but it does work. (I also believe Herons are allowed to use dangly poles, Tim Gatti fitted one out on his). As for the Fireflies, I suspect that they dropped twisting masts, since they couldn´t fully batten their sails and so lost any true benefit. Also if we want to be going just a little faster up wind, we should increase our sail area from 3/4 height downwards, so we can plane upwind easily under the right conditions without having to be lightweight.(//blahdocs/Smilies/wink.gif)
The learning curve is steep in any considered class change, but that´s what makes it so interesting. (//blahdocs/Smilies/shock.gif)
Cheers!

Jim.

Quote from: 78
Finally, if you want a double bottomed river rocket, my (possibly biassed) suggestion would be a Paradigm 2

Are there any pictures of the boat kicking about?

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/photos/?s=64&PID=27942 (http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/photos/?s=64&PID=27942)
Here's one from Salcombe - you may find others by using the link within the Harwich thread.

I own a Merlin and Two N12's, and race both on the national circuits. The turn out for the Merlin Silver Tiller and The Gill opens are about the same 28 - 38 boats.(The Merlins might get a few more at couple of events).
Old boats change hands at the same price Year for year. A competetive second hand Merlin will coat you between 6 -10 thousand pounds, may be 12 for some thing special. A new merlin is going to cost you double that of a N12.
On the water both boats give you, what you only get from a development class, a nice boat, and easy boat to sail in all wind conditions.(I sailed a Laser 2000 last week end, what a pig).(We have 82 in our club only 2 race).
Off the water the N12 is a dream of aboat, easy and quick to rig, light and easy to move around. (If we go to an open, we leave an hour for rigging).
Side by side the N12's equal on looks and style, both boats are ulta- modern. The N12 needs talking up and not down, it also needs to be seen. The Merlins are good at getting pics in the mags. and the owners sell the product, There's never a bad word about the boat or the fleet and they promoted heavely in the clubs.
For me the N12 is perfect and I would not chage any thing, gust talk it up.
 
 

Broz,
I agree!! well said. It's not the boat we need to fix/change. My children sail Cadets most week-ends and very few of their pals know what an N12 is! They never see them, they belong tpo clubs where they are not sailed. The merlins have strong club fleets, they encourage the vintage scene and many top helms have a modern and a vintage boat, they are proud of their boats and heriatge but they sail at local clubs and support the class at all levels.
I have just joined a local club to sail my old 12, it's not as exiting as doing a big open with 30 boats and it's not that competivie but it's fun and it's nice to get out on the water mid-week. Last night I crewed for my wife, last sunday I crewed for my 12 year old. We on the water in a beatuiful boat and hopefully someone may think - that's a nice boat, I'd like to sail one. If you don't know about them, rwad about them or see them they might as well not exist.
DaveC

I only got my 12 last year after 20 years in big boats, bought it because it was more interesting to sail than some other classes.  I am the only 12 in the club so it can be lonely, though others are starting to talk about it & want to sail it to see what it is like.  They have a healthy respect for it (30 yr old Tiger) as it does so well in light winds & scares most in the windy stuff.  Personally I prefer a centreboard due to depth problems (less damage).  I have taken a couple of good teenagers out as crews & they are impressed by it.  I agree with Dave & Broz, a good fleet at club level is essential.  I would probably not be able to afford a new boat so any changes would take a while to filter down to me.  Duncan

Just a thought from a 'temporarily lapsed' 12 sailor.  We temporarily left the class because we didn't have sufficient time to dedicate to be competitive at the same time as I was sailing the Fireball and just about to go back to sea.  Interestingly we were just about to put a new boat together.  I was also just about to buy a new Fireball.  I was amazed when the 2 boats were going to come out at the same cost.  Whichever way you look at it, the 12 is very expensive for its size, but I don't think it needs to be.  The hull doesn't need to be carbon, but the biggest saving could come from going to a simpler fit out (which with the mast, is where most of the expense is out with the hull).  It would be very interesting to see a top sailor going for a simple fit out on a non-carbon hull.  How much would such a boat cost -  and if it could be proved to be competitive off the shelf at a similar price to an RS200 would more people buy new boats?
Combine this with a review of opens and emphasis on club racing and I think you are able to start re-building the fleet without having to do anything radical with the rules which could detract from the classes current strengths.
Hope BW goes well, and hope to be back in the coming years.
Sam

Sam
Good to hear from you.  The Paradigm referred to above has no carbon in the hull and carries 2kg of lead having been built off frames rather than out of a female mould.  I dont think that it will make that much odds to its overall speed round the track compared to the amount of time that we get to practice...  Fit out is a little cheaper than some given that we have not gone for lowers which probably saves at least another £150 of blocks, cleats, line etc
I have not done the sums, but there is a saving to be had, particularly as we have also built a mould for another boat.
John

;)

I've been pondering on this thread for a while. Having returned to sailing after a 20 year absence I had to consider buying a boat and whose ranks to join. At the time I started looking Twelves were not on my shortlist. My interest was roused by chance and before I followed up on the N12 ad that caught my attention I delved into the Association web-pages.
Strikingly different from my memories of club sailing in the 70s and 80s is how rare it is to see significant numbers of any one class competing together at club level these days. Social and economic reasons have been cited, along with proliferation of MODs and the expectations of our young sailors. Certainly many have migrated to single handed options because of the difficulty of finding crews. I did not want to join a class in decline.

The 12 Assoc. web-pages were all the convincing I needed and having bought the 12 the experience of ownership has supported those first positive impressions; that the class is healthy and supported by many enthusiastic and passionate people.
What strikes me most about the 'twelve' is its' heritage, pride and inclusivity. Moreover, I'm fully equipped with a beautiful boat, three suits and a combi without having to spend deeper than would be prudent and certainly at a small fraction of the asking price of a Laser 2000 or RS200. You may have already guessed that I would not want to get involved in the expense of an arms race, but that would not mean I would be resistant to the adoption of new ideas; if rule changes are deemed appropriate then I would expect to see owners of newer boats experimenting first and to me it would be an equally important debate as to whether say Rig rule changes should be permitted to percolate to AC and older boats.

It is no wonder MODs have been attractive to people. They have exploited mass production using methods and materials that have superceded the technology of the Jack Holt hard chine and GRP eras. People have clearly been attracted to the low maintenance aspect and while the outlay has been fairly high, credit has been readily available and residuals have been good. The trend has been towards high spec boats (asymmetric, wire(s), wings, (or both), self draining, fast planing hulls on open water and arguably at the expense of close tactical racing on restricted water. Feeling wealthy, people could choose to travel some distance to suitable water.

We have yet to see the full implications of recent world events but surely if people are forced to be more prudent with their money then the sale of new boats, and especially those Manufacturers-One-Design classes, will decline in a recession. For as little of one fifth of the price a used N12 looks exceedingly good value against a 2000 or 200 if your budget is tight.

There are remarks that 2000s sit in parks and and are rarely seen with the covers off. Actually it is true of many classes and it exemplifies my point that people have felt wealthy enough to buy a boat then not use it, hold on to a boat they no longer have the time to sail regularly, or perhaps own more than one boat, maybe one being a L$$$r and, given the difficulty of finding a crew they elect to race that instead.

The N12 should not resist development, for that is one thing that may stimulate new builds, but what really matters is attracting enthusiastic new converts to the class and they will most likely come to the association via an older boat. I could not agree more with Roly Mo that the 12 already does many things very well. For me and from the perspective of a newcomer to the class that means close tactical racing on restricted water, close proximity of suitable water and Sailing Club, small capital outlay, responsive to being sailed well (so I'm led to believe!) active and affordable entry to a regional circuit, social scene, camaraderie between owners, and not least the pride in the heritage with inclusivity for all, be they DB, AC, 4-plank or Vintage.
Sure, wanting to encourage new builds is desirable and would be one pointer to success but unless the rate of new builds outstrips the rate at which older boats fall into  disuse and decay then the net result is still decline. Just as important is that older boats should be in the hands of people who will keep them serviceable and participate regularly.
The fact that we are invited to participate in the Endeavour Trophy, and have a crew place third, is one excellent indicator of success. Interestingly the notable current revival in interest at Olton Mere involves both younger crews, older boats and (OMSC forgive me, please) a restricted water.
Two of my most enjoyable races this season were pursuit races at my home club, Redesmere. Amongst the mixed fleet were our three active 12s, a Mark 4a from 1959, my 1985 Crusader, and a 1993 Baggy. Just a few seconds between our separate starts and we had a real race on between us, right to the line. ..."Close racing on a restricted shifty water."
Raising the profile 12s at club level is what would really attract new interest. For that there is nothing better than enthusiastic 12 owners getting the covers off, being seen to be having a fun time, and infecting others with their enthusiasm.

What's great about the Twelve is that it offers a low cost entry to some great club and circuit racing with the opportunity for future investment and progression. Just possibly we are entering a period where considerations of cost may sway potential new owners our way.

Bit of an aside, but who sailing on Saturday at Pitsford ever thought ‘wish I had that fat head fully battened main up today’?
 
Rig for diving.
 
Note to race officer, ‘please leave plenty of room between the gybe mark and the shore to allow us to tack round’.

Excellent message Crusader 3244, couldnt agree more

I wasnt at Pitsford, but sailed in 5-25 knots on Sunday and having moved from an old school soft sail rig to a modern, responsive, fully battened one I think I would choose the latter in pretty much any condition.

Quote from: still hurting (Guest)Bit of an aside, but who sailing on Saturday at Pitsford ever thought ‘wish I had that fat head fully battened main up today’?
 
Rig for diving.