I've recently joined a club with a fleet of 12s and it may be the way to solve my son's problem. I've explained the handicap system to him but he still doesn't get that I can finish half an hour later in my Mirror and still get a decent place, I suspect that if I get something with a low handicap and finish "first" on elapsed time and then get a low place he will feel cheated.
This leaves joining the fleet racing i.e. a 12. Most of the 12s are fairly recent but I've just spotted a vintage one not too far away. How competetive will it be for inland river sailing? I suppose that a lot will be down to skill and experience.
Is it possible to upgrade rigging on these boats?
thanks
a) National Twelves are much more fun than Mirrors. I have helmed and crewed in both.
b) Children much prefer to finish near the front of the fleet on the water.
c) For the same cost you can get a 12 in much better condition than a Mirror.
d) For river conditions I believe that the N 12 yardstick is more favourable than a Mirror's.
I suppose I wasn't very clear. My options are either to buy a 12 and sail in the 12 fleet against other 12s i.e. with no correction or buy something else and sail in the handicap fleet.
My real question is how competetive a clinker built vintage 12 is against later designs. Generally flukey light winds (like most river sailing).
I already have my Mirror thank you and the yardstick is locally adjusted (raised).
Greetings Mr Overomtimistix! Just have a look at the results for Redesmere this year, or Yorkshire Ouse in previous to see how competative vintage N12s can be, both on rivers and ponds, against ACs and DBs. And if you want to take a trip away from your home club you will be very welcome at the assorted vintage events around the country; the "Derwent" handicap meetings make the racing very equal - see Frampton on Severn Report. You will also get lots of help from the vintage wing! Do let us know the details of the boat you are looking at. Whereabouts in the UK are you? Cheers, Paul N2020, N2359, N2487, N2399
Paul makes some very valid points above and a well sorted vintage 12 competes very well indeed on restricted waters. I have a 1965 Starfish (N2266) and she goes very well, in fact in the lighter stuff she is faster than my 1991 Design Eight. The Vintage Fleet is very friendly indeed and we have an excellent open series. with 10 races planned for 2010. The Class also has recommended handicaps for older 12s which your club may use if they wish, these are detailed in the Handbook and Yearbook.
Do let us know where you are and if you get a 12 which one you get or if you need any advice on particular designs etc feel free to ask. Vintage 12s also tend to carry weight better than some of the newer designs. The yearbook has contact details of all association members so it is easy to find out who to talk to for more information or post further queries on this discussion page. Cheers Howard N2, N2266, N2769 and N3356. PS you only need 1 boat but be warned once the bug bites the fleet tends to grow.
Hi,
I was talking at my sailing club (Desborough) to one of the 12 owners there. He thought that the price for this one (£550) was a bit high.The advert says that she was recently restored.I also saw an advert there for Crested Grebe which is a more modern design.
The pictures of the vintage 12 show a pretty boat - possibly not the most competetive boat but as long as I can keep up with the rest then it should keep number one son happy - winning on handicap is not so satisfactory.
On the other hand my wife asks whether I need a third wooden boat as well as the Mirror and British Moth.
Hi - I moved into National 12's about four year's ago having sold my racing Mirror as my then 12 year old son was getting a bit big for the front end. I started with a ribbed, 1938 Uffa King (Mat N341) which is not the standard entry point by any means, but then acquired a Pipedream for restoration (Gnasher N3109). Since then as Howard as noted above, my fleet too has grown - largely through my interest in repairing and restoring vintage 12's.
You are probably facing the classic dilemma for anyone moving from a restricted/one design fleet like the Mirror which is - how do you decide from the plethora of N12 designs available which one is best for you. There is no doubt that a well equipped and maintained vintage boat can do very well on rivers or restricted waters and the Vintage Fleet itself is very active. I wouldn't rush into buying anything too soon - take time to find out about some of the many designs, go and look at a few for sale and keep an eye on the N12 Boats for Sale section and ebay. There are some great bargains to be had - but also some boats on offer that would take a lot of time effort and money to bring them back to a competitive condition, so unless you have the space, time and skill that's a route you may want to avoid!
Why not ask one of the fleet members at Desborough if they would let you try out their 12 so that you and your son can get the feel for it if you haven't already done so? Feel free to give me a call (07790 615800) if you need any more advice.
Just tell your wife that three boats is OK - you could be reducing back to two if you like the 12.
Best wishes. Tim
N341, N493, N711, N1183, N2255, N3130, N3227 - check them out on the boat database
Tim,
yes I am facing a certain amount of confusion. Previously I have raced in one-design classes - Mirror, Topper, British Moth, Firefly, Laser 2 and not experienced the dilemmas of development classes. I have looked quite a lot at this site and been canvassing opinions from friends at my current and previous clubs. The 12 is a new class to me since joining Desborough earlier this year. Currently they don't use a different handicap for a vintage 12.
I'm looking for a third boat now as my wife would like to sail too - she has done some, but just needs practice. We have three young boys who need to be enthused about sailing and it makes child care much easier if we can all go out on the water.
With this in mind we are looking for something that is not too radical,
Farily responsive in light winds which is the general weather.
Not requiring a heavy weight crew - currently son and me combined weight is around 16 stone and less for son and wife.
Son number one thinks that fleet sailing will be easier to get to grips
with but I don't think that he will be terribly impressed with the
excuse that Dad bought the wrong sort of boat.
I think the question is less about three boats than three _wooden_ boats.
thanks
dan
If "wooden" is an issue, I would suggest waiting
for an early plastic boat (e.g. a paper dart) to come on the market. It will probably
be cheaper than a vintage boat (around £200), low(er) maintenance, and potentially
(theoretically) faster in the fleet race than the older of the vintage designs.
Sam makes a good point - the Paper Dart was very successful in it's time and of the 50+ built during the 1970's there are quite a few still in circulation. If you want to move away from wood completely, then you might also consider a Design 8 - very low maintenance and a very good all round Admiral's Cup design which would be a bigger initial investment but they do hold their price extremely well. I'm sure you will have noticed there have been a couple up for sale recently on the 12 site. Perhaps if Antony Gifford or Howard Chadwick are reading this post they could add their verdicts??! Tim
I started in a mirror and my son couldn't work out the handicap system, he always wanted to retire before we got lapped. The club I was at then had an evening pursuit series which he really enjoyed, then I got a 4 plank china doll for not much more than I paid for my mirror and in much better condition. After that he never went back in the mirror and he didn't really bother where we came. I am now on about my 6th 12, although unlike Tim and Howard I am not allowed to have more than one or two at a time.
Angus, I'm getting the same problem with my son regarding handicap. I started in a Mirror 30 years ago and there were usually several others to race against.
There are a couple of Design 8s in the club.
Regarding the wooden bit - it would be negotiable for the right boat. I saw the advert and thought that it looked like an attractive boat.
The one I saw for sale is 1702 on ebay. There's also 3456 in Glasgow.
On one of your initial comments regarding upgrading rigging on older boats this would not pose any problem with a 12, provided you do not try to put an old 14s mast in its place. Changing a wooden mast for a metal one or a metal one for a carbon mast is entirely dependant upon how deep your pocket is, or how much you will be allowed to spend according to SWMBO. I suppose answering this question is a bit like asking how long is a piece of string as has been shown by Tim sorting out old boats has become a labour of love. If you go for a newer option ie a Design 8, they are very much plug and play out of the box and will not need a lot doing to them if you buy one. The best and cheapest way to sort out this problem is to have a go in a 12 and I am sure someone at Desborough will let you have a go. Another way of getting your son on board is ask him to see if he can have a ride in the front of one and I am sure he will think that you are on to a winner when you buy one of whatever shape, age or design.
Good luck, but as several folks have already said 12s can become addicitve.
Two or three replies to this email have mentioned handicapping of Vintage Twelves. It may have been overlooked that on page 9 of the annual Booklet there is a paragraph entitled "Handicaps for use in club racing" which unfortunately I had a hand in creating. You can try that if you like.
However it became apparent to me a year or two ago, that the ideas behind the scheme no longer represented the performance of the various ages of boats actually sailing and a year ago I asked the General Committee to accept some new data that I presented. However they didn't think that I had enough new data and rejected my proposal. I then requested race data from this year's championship racing, with 70+ boats, but no one was interested.
Although the handicap system on Page 9 is still there, I think it is no longer fit for purpose and should be replaced with something which is more representative.
Ken Goddard, N.2300 "Duodecimal"
When I spoke about this at the club they said that the boats could be handicapped differently but the club didn't currently apply this. It does seem to work against my original choice to join the class racing.
How different is the handicap? The PN is 1092 but I don't know whether this is adjusted locally in handicap races. What is the suggested vintage PN?
My own view would be to keep this simple.
Your son will enjoy racing other boats at the club, and so the obvious thing to do is to buy something not too different from what the other local 12 sailors have. If you can find and afford one then a D8 is the obvious solution as they are the best built 12 of that era and totally plastic so you can look after your other wooden boats. Failing that a wooden Crusader is cheaper and as near as matters for club racing the same shape. On the river you could go for something a little older, probably as far back as a good Cheshire Cat and still not be at any material disadvantage to the D8 sailors. If you go back much older then the boats are heavier and in most condition you will be starting with a disadvantage.
If you find a boat on the market and want an opinion on the shape let us know, as you have probably noticed there is no lack of free advice here even if some of it does conflict!
Antony
N3348
At Spinnaker we use 1092, 1104 & 1145 for DB, AC & Vintage respectively. It seems to work well, different boats do well in different conditions, but in the final analysis it is largely down to the crew. Either way, with double bottomed, admirals cup or vintage you are joining a class that youngsters will enjoy, especially if you have a good crowd of youngsters amongst the 12's already and before too long will be leaving you ashore!
P.S. Sound advice Antony, who says we 12 sailors never agree on anything!
Thanks Ian. The numbers are very usefull. Currently all 12s use 1092 and there is no distinction on age. The lag for 1104 is about 30 seconds in an hour but for 1145 it is 2 1/2 minutes
As my main reason for looking into 12s is to be able to enjoy class racing with my son I shall keep looking, although I think that some of the vintage designs are rather pretty.
Looking through the Desborough boat list the designs regularly sailed are Pipedream, Design8, Tigress and Crusader. There are also Paper Dart, MicroClipper and Cheshire Cat that are less often used. There is one Holt clinker design.
The sailing conditions are generally light winds.
I'm looking for a boat that is suitable for a light weight crews - although I suspect that this is not the over rifing consideration given the usual wind. Something fairly stable as I hope my wife and son will both enjoy sailing her. It would also be nice to have a boat that can be used for cruising on occasions.
Lots of advice above so just a few comments to add:-
[face=Times New Roman]If you want to spend 2-£300 and want plastic then a Paperdart is fine and I paid £50.00 for mine although without a mast. Performance wise they are similar to a China Doll and great inland or on a river, not too many around though and some had wooden decks so it’s best to check if you follow up any adverts. [/face]
Design 8 is a great boat, reasonably forgiving and will carry up to circa 23 stone they are almost indestructible and mostly plastic, the thwart and plate case top is teak and the bulkhead is ply. The price range is circa 12-£1800 depending on condition and what comes with it etc. D8’s hold price very well indeed and may sell for more money when you trade up or move on. A Crusader is very similar in design, usually wood though but similar performance for £5-£900
Vintage :- great but its back to high maintenance again although I think they are worth it.
[face=Times New Roman]All the major designs are described under “About†on the web page including the good and bad points, whatever you go for try and avoid very tired sails as a new set will set you back 7-£800 and stick to the recognised designs for resale value. [/face]
It sounds as though the handicap system is not of interest, it does however help a little and unlike Ken I think it is better than nothing but as performance for each design varies with wind, sailing conditions, state of the rig and sails and crew weight not to mention ability no handicap system can ever be 100% fair. My Paperdart, Starfish and Design 8 have all won races this year on straight time although N2 does struggle a bit. Howard C aka Chadders N2, 2266, 2769 and 3356
Chadders, that raises another issue - what is the cost and availablilty of masts, sails etc. I've seen a couple of boats for sailing missing some or all of these. It really destroys the economics buying a boat for peanuts and then having to buy lots of other bits.
I agree completely I was lucky I got a mast for a bottle of whisky but I have a spare one anyway although our Chairman is using it on one of his boats currently (hint Tim).
Several people have upgraded to carbon and it is occasionally possible to pick up an aluminium mast for not a lot of money and older boats do sometimes get scrapped off due to rot or serious damage etc and the bits then come up for sale via the web page, I have seen several bits donated to worthy causes for free. The class hotshots often replace sails fairly frequently too so used suits do come up although you need to make sure they have been cut for a similar mast to the one you have and hotshots will almost certainly be using carbon these days. I would go for a complete boat if possible with reasonable sails and just get on and sail it. If you are not in a rush you could go really cheap buy a part boat and advertise for the bits you need to get going but why bother with such a good selection of used boats around. If you dont mind a risk try a search on ebay current bargain is in Scotland and ends in 3 hours time!
I know the fleet at Desborough well. If you buy any well-known design Twelve from a Cheshire Cat to a Design 8 (including Tiger, Tigress, Pipedream and Crusader), you will be competing on a broadly like-for-like basis with the current fleet and special PY numbers won't be relevant. The river's tight and fiddly there and you'll be competitive with a light crew in any of those shapes - depending of course on your own ability. You won't have to spend any extra money especially updating one of those shapes - for example, I don't think anyone at Desborough has a carbon mast. I'm sure the fleet there will be only too happy to give you a trial sail and to welcome you if you decide to get a boat. Just one word of catution - Twelves may look simple but it takes time to learn how to make them go quickly - but it's a very rewarding experience.
Mike D
N352?
I see 3398 is up for sale - that would be a great boat for you. Don't suppose it will be up for sale for long.
I think that my budget (£500) will probably restrict me to a wooden or older plastic boat.
I'll keep my eye out over the winter but at the moment they all seem to be vintage designs
I have owned a number of 12's, including Cheshire Cat, Crusader 88 and Final Chapter 'single bottoms' and now own a DB Final Chapter and a vintage 'Sparklet'. I sail the Sparklet with my 8 year old daughter on a 70 acre inland lake and we also venture off to other venues, including rivers (but not the salty stuff yet!). We also own a Mirror.
I have my best sailing with Ellie in the Sparklet. I find the Mirror horribly cramped for the two of us and if she wants to helm I simply can't manage to bend enough around the kicker to make it comfortable. We've sailed in some quite windy conditions in the 12 and we've also competed in really light stuff - and enjoyed ourselves equally. I was very lucky with the boat I bought, it was one I'd admired for some time and eventually it came up for sale at just the right time. The Vintage circuit is great fun and ideal for bringing children into racing, the racing is certainly competitive but it's very friendly too.
In 2010 we have a number of Mirror events which Ellie wants to go to, will actively compete on the Vintage circuit and I'll bring Roly Mo out to play for a number of carefully selected sea and larger lake meetings where I can get a crew.
I guess the message in all of this rambling is that I'm really enjoying Vintage sailing with my young daughter - give it a go!
RM
PS We are hoping to get to sail off the PN's at Ripon next year, which would be great!
I don't think that I will be doing much on the circuit for the while, just enjoying club racing with wife and sons.
I've been told that I can't have more than three.
I'm investigating a Mark 10 in Scotland at the moment that seems to be quite cheap - transport may be the killer in the end. Also the risk of buying an old wooden boat unseen.
I like the look of the vintage boats, but they may not suit my oldest sons competetive nature.