Hi all
I am interested in the 12 and have been for many years now. I sail in the channel and wanted your advice on which design of 12 is best suited to sea sailing out of the double bottom boats.
helm/crew = 20 1/2 stone
All advice would be gratefull and Iam sorry if this question been asked many times before.
Cheers Popeye
You would be absolutely fine with any of the double bottom designs. They are all equally competitive. My personal reservation would be around the Numinous design as it is probably the liveliest but then it is also a Championship winner!
Where are you sailing? Love a bit of sea sailing - maybe we could have an open meeting there?
Jane Crew N3512
also what is your budget?
are you looking new or second hand?
Very good secondhand or new, may evan build myself to be honist.
well tom stewart's boats up for £7,200 at the moment, which has very little use, and many many wins at opens etc
Popeye
If you want to go the new route, you have a few optiions, Rondar have put together a good looking package with the paradigm 2, which has shown good potential over the last 2 years, with a Burton Cup win. For a Foolish, I would either suggest Toms boat, or taliking to Aardvark who have a mould, unless you can find several like minded people, Ovingtons unlikely to build you a single hull. Aardvark have a few other options too. The Foolish is probably still the best all round boat at the moment that has been built in significant numbers. The Numinous mould is out there to be used, but it would either mean a self build, or finding a builder. The design we are all talking about at the moment is the Dead CAt Bounce, the prototype has been extremely quick with its foiled rudder, and trim tabbed centre board. The mould is on the isle of white, but a hull from composite craft is very pricey. Tom at P&B is looking to put a package together, if he can get the mould, I believe there is currently one being moulded at CC at the moment, so a few of us are waiting to see which way to jump. Having sailed the DCB on a river in almost no wind, i would suggest it is best suited to open water, but it may have been my lack of skill. The one thing to consider is the winged rudder, This will certainly require a change of car for me unless i can come up with a transport box for the thing, though roof down may be the best way to go.
My suggestion would be a foolish as your first point of call, get used to it, then consider something a bit more radical later. I am still not sure I made the right choice in selling mine, though the guy who bought it tells me it was a great decision.
Andy Mck
ex 2923, 2947, 3162 and 3466
soon 35??
Thanks for that Andy, that was the advice i was after. I am in no hurry and will continue to moniter the designs.
Will have to come take a look sometime soon at one of the events to see all in action.
Cheers Popeye
You couldn't do better than come to the 12 inlands next weekend (7+8 november) at Northampton SC. All the designs will be there and you could have a good chat with their owners.
Jeremy
Feeling Foolish 3444
unfortunatly I wont be able to make it next weekend. Will try get to an event at some point tho.
Popeye
The Dead Bounce Design form Jo Richards certainly seems to be a good sea boat with a v impressive record at Burton Week http://www.burtonweek.org/. Composite Craft are builsing one at the moment for me. Its complex to build and they are using the best materials available. You can follow progress on http://deadcatbouncenational12.blogspot.com/
Thanks for that Michael I will keep an eye on your blog.
What is it about the dead cat bounce that differs it to the other many designs? Surely its difficult to judge different designs because everyones skills vary sailing the designs.
Popeye
If I may make a suggestion, It does not matter which of the latest "hot" designs you go for, as with anything, success is measured by the amount of time you can spend doing it, multiplied by talent, divided by the index of the cost (time x talent /[£]) and you may have spent years looking at 12's, but when you get in one you may hate it.
My advice would be buy second hand, they are all tried and tested and much cheaper, there are plenty on the 'For Sale' part of the site, play with it for a couple of years, join the NTOA, go to events, talk to people and try things out and then you will know what you want.
Good luck and good hunting.
Yes i agree. My concern is that if i buy an old design how easy is it going to be to re-sell and at handicap racing will it be able to sail off its py. So i want to make the best cost effective decision. I have sailed 12s in the past and know the score.
Popeye
You really cannot go far wrong with a P&B Feeling Foolish. They hold their value and with consistent results in all conditions and types of water you can feel confident.
There should be a few on the market soon as well.
Jane
Crew 3512 Alpha Male
No one knows if the DCB is a genuinely quick all-rounder yet, or if Joe’s just too good for us all.
No one knows if foils make existing designs go quicker, but many will argue the point to death; especially on the internet.
No one knows which existing designs may take foils better than another.
I’d say we’re all as confused as you because the last significant development in the class was in the early 80s.
If you want to go sailing in the next 18 months I’d pick up a reasonably priced example of any of the double bottom designs. They’re all competitive on the sea and that option gets you sailing and in a much better position to judge developments for yourself. Handicap corrections move so slowly you’re likely be very competitive for at least the next few years.
These boats are heavily depreciated already and you’re unlikely to loose much. You could probably strip the kit for your new rocket ship in 2 years time when you’ve worked out what you want and make a profit on the deal.
MM - whoever you are:
I do know the answer to a lot of these questions with a high degree of confidence.
I also remember a period of rapid development in the class in the late 1990s.
That said, the advice to buy a decent 2nd hand Foolish or Chapter (if on the sea) or Numinous (if not too heavy) is sound.
Antony
N3348
Can someone tell me how the Big issue 2 differs to the Big issue. What have most standerd Big issues undergone to become Big issue 2's.
Regards Popeye (Alistair)
I don't think much changed beneath the waterline, but the big issue 2 had more flared gunwhales running almost parrallel from shroud points to stern to allow greater hiking power. The Paradox was the most extreme version of this idea with no curve at all to the gunwhales.
Also how do 12's benifit from a lowerd foredeck like the likes of carbon paw print surely this is only going to make pitchpoles become more likely! (amazing looking boat tho, love it in lime green!)
Hope you okk dont mind me asking lots of questions???
They don't really benefit from having the lowered foredeck (more styling related), but believe it or not they make pitchpoles easier to sail out of as the foredeck doesn't push the boat further down.
The BI2'2 like Chunky Monkey were different at deck level, but they were also finer through the midsections underwater but with more buoyancy in the ends. I had a bit of success in the The Big Issue 1 (Aardvark Issues and Radical Edward) but feel the BI2 was quicker through the few times I sailed my old boy's boats (Boatyard Dog and Carbon Pawprint) although I dont think it was ever really sailed to its potential. Best boat in big breeze ever - can be pushed really hard offwind and will plane upwind with 21 stone in it...
Cheers
Cookie, Builder of most Big Issues!
Quote from: Mikey C (Guest)Best boat in big breeze ever - can be pushed really hard offwind and will plane upwind with 21 stone in it...
Cheers
Cookie, Builder of most Big Issues!
S'funny, I've never seen any 12 plane upwind when significantly close-hauled. Beam reaching maybe, but upwind and with 21 stone..... If you are planing upwind, you'd be really significantly reducing your VMG. IMO you're better off pointing higher in a 12.
Jim.
Well, I never sailed heavy enough myself, but the race I crewed for Mark Simpson at Burton week in Weymouth last time we were pointing significantly lower than anyone else but going so much faster that it didnt matter... It has to be windy to work, and you need the weight but it worked.
Cheers
Mike
are the older boats worth upgrading as the 12 changes slowly, or is it worth sailing with what you got and saving for one of the latest designs?
a lot of people are trying to add t foils trim tab boards etc to differnt designs, numinous and the final chapter are well suited to this, particularly the chapter,
if anyone could post some hull profile images can show why.
The chapter would be well suited to a T-foil because of the amount of rocker towards the transom. This gives a good rising stream of water for a foil to direct just below the water line. It is someting I have thought about doing on my boat but have not got round to it yet!!
My chapter is however up for sale if anyone is interested! Would be a great boat for sailing on the sea with or without a T-foil! A chapter is a good option with Waymouth coming up next year.
Greg N3473
Quote from: 663are the older boats worth upgrading as the 12 changes slowly, or is it worth sailing with what you got and saving for one of the latest designs?
Definitely - carbon mast and decent sails to fit will speed up an older boat quite significantly. In marginal planing you'll still struggle against newer/lighter/stiffer boats but in sub planing and in proper breeze you'll find it a lot quicker and easier to sail (with only half the weight waving around in the sky...)
Tim :)
ex-N3295 (much upgraded...)
Yer sorry I didnt quite mean that dated, as in still ally masts and booms. I mean at what age of boat do you leave as is, and upgrade to a newer much stiffer design before losing loads of money when you do want to sell it.
This is the entire joy of the N12 class to me - you will not get consensus!
The Gill Series has just been won by a boat built in 1998 (Feeling Foolish design). The vast majority of double bottomed boats remain stiff and on minimum weight.
I think that the Paradigm 2 is the answer - that is why I have one. That said I also think that Dead Cat Bounce arriving this year has posed a lot of questions which the serious N12 sailor needs to answer!
The best way to lose lots of money on any dinghy is not to use it, or not maintain it. If you buy new you pay a premium for being able to spec the boat including a colour that may not be someone elses preference. My observation in the N12 class is that those who get the most value from their investments choose a conservative design and hold onto them for longest.
That all depends on how you measure "value". Is it purely the residual money value when it eventually comes to selling the boat; is it the number of clubs races won in it, or the number of open events, or even the number of national championships (on this last basis most of us will have derived little "value" from our investments); is it more subjective such as most bang for your bucks in terms of enjoyment; or is it simply the number of women who come and talk to you just because they LOVE the look of a pink boat?
Kevin
I'd go along with Kevin's last point!
Popeye. If residual (monetary) value is a particular issue then perhaps you need to think about whether a development class is really for you, particularly if the class enters a period of rapid change. That said I get the impression 12s fare better than most.
Yes valid points, its more to do with national 12's are a fairly specialist boat and how easy they are to re-sell iam not sure. I dont want to be stuck with a boat that when the time comes and i want to buy a better spec 12 i will be able to sell it.
Or will be able to sell it but will proberly take several months in doing so.
double bottom 12's do sell n very fast, even the ac's are only up for sale for a short time.
theres always people looking to upgrade, or join the class, so you should have no trouble at all selling any 12 on.
Popeye
It is a fair observation about selling. My experience is that you have to be patient. Some boats go very quickly (normally the purchaser has just missed out on something else!) and at other times they dont - maybe the purchaser also has something to sell. I have never been able to find rhyme or reason to what goes on, having sold boats before I have ever needed to advertise them, and also advertised for more than 3 months without an enquiry. The last 3 boats that I have sold went to the first enquiry. One of them the enquiry was within 2 hours of posting the ad, and the boat had gone within 48 hours, having been inspected within 24...
I dont know really how different this is to other classes, but I had similar experience when selling OKs
Hi again all this is my thread from a couple of years ago :-/. At the time in the end my boat money became the deposit for my house! Lol