National 12

Having been an enthusiastic follower and sailor of this wonderful class and having thought of returning to it later in the year I decided to look at the most recent handbook. Does anybody else feel it makes uncomfortablle reading and how healthy is the class at the moment?
when I initially sailed the class in the late 70's boat numbers were incredibly healthy with 40/50 boats being produced each year and many designs being developed. There was a good spread of amateur and professionally built boats which implies to me that we were producing an object that people wanted at a price they could afford while still being cutting edge.
imagine my shock to see that in 2013 there was 1, yes that's right just ONE National 12 built and in 2012 there where 4 while 2011 resulted in the grand total of 3 new boats. Now I ask myself are we producing a product people want at a price people can afford. I have to say purely on numbers the answer has to be a resounding NO and it makes me worry, is this the death knell of a boat I love so much.
Is it just cost, I would say no as the Merlin still holds it's own but it does play a part. Looking at modern twelves it seems they are very complex and not as exciting as other boats in the same category. 
I cannot understand a class which banned dagger boards because they restrict where 12's can sail and yet encourage wings up to 600 mm on either side of the rudder. This I believe would put off,not encourage, new members to the fleet as they seem very complex compared to any gains made. 
is it time to get back to basics and have a long hard look at where the class wants to be in 10 years time and where it is likely to end up if things maintain their current path.
to me the class is being sidelined and is becoming that curious little class that people like to show an interest in rather than get in and sail. A little bit like the cherub, 12 foot skiff etc. I don't think getting over complex would work for us like it did the moth and international 14. Rather we need to get back to being more mainstream, perhaps a little less complex and something that youngsters want to get into ( what % of the fleet was under 30 in the last 3 champs) as well as husbands and wives/ partners/ kids. 
Far from being negative I want to see this once great and important class get back to where it should be. The enthusiasm for Admirals Cup boats shows that people still love what was a great product.
interested to see what people think. Let's get a discussion going

32 views, no comments , ostriches spring to mind
 
bump

could be more bots than peeps?? I will reply just doing some quauilty pounding first ;)

The thrust of your post is a good one and obvious to anyone looking from the outside.  12's greatest strength was/is its ability to be rewarding to sail on a huge range of different types of water, with a wide range of skill sets of crew.  It is fair to say that it has gradually moved away from this position for the past 30 years, probably since the relaxation of the double curvature rule, or perhaps when it officially added Development to the title.  However I am not sure that an open forum is the best place to sling the brick bats.  If I were involved in the management of the class I would be trying to reengage with the core historical benefits of the Twelve.  The wisest words that I have heard on the matter was Kevan Bloor at an AGM at Torquay pointing out the importance of building a big enough fleet of competitive (similar performance?) boats to create a platform for good and level racing.

Dave, certainly not trying to sling bats, if anything I wanted people to suggest ways forwards to the good old days we both remember when 12s were the boats to get. It's no point in burying heads in sand and not acknowledging that there is something wrong with the health of the class. We need to get people thinking about how this trend can be reversed and the class can build on it's reputation and grow again. I love these boats and hate to see how it appears to be heading down a dead end. I think you are right double curvature rules and exotic materials may have had a lot to answer for. Problem is I have no other forum to address this in, the joys of open discussion boards.
we all need to do something to get ideas going

So, what we are saying is, you have a dinghy class, made up of many designs (over the years). 
The success of each design seems to be measured on its ability to win one race in one particular type of venue. 
If this was not achieved, that particular design was deemed a failure, or at the very least, not to represent a worthwhile step in the right direction.  The 'right direction' has seen the boat become wider, shallower and more powerful in open water?  It has seen it go from, wood on frame clinker to glued clinker, to 4 plank, to fibreglass, to cold molded, to frp, double bottomed, carbon fibre, etc.
Also as technology has been developed and embraced, the cost and complexity of the craft has increased to the point whereby new people are put off?
So the modern designs are now about as far removed from the 'general purposefulness' of the original Uffa king as it can be.  And this has been going on right from the word "go" ?
When you have a boat that is continually developed for just one task to the detriment of all others, over many decades, you will end up with a boat that is so focused for that task, that it can do nothing else.  It will also now apeal to only a few sailors of a like mind, who are in it for a chance to win......'The race'.  You put racers in charge of a class, you will eventually get a race boat and only a race boat.
What of the rest of the fleet?....Have they retired from the arms race, to potter around in their 'non-competive old boat' at thier local club?  Join the vintage fleet?  CVRDA?
I am not a 'died in the wool' racer, but I love my two N12s.  But one is a classic Starfish and the other is a vintage Holt design and I sail them inland, on a lake.  Unfortunatley, I am never likely to go sea to try and win the Burton Cup.  So these old designs, especially the Starfish, offer someone like me, a good compromise.  A boat that is lively, cheap and low tech, that I can manitain myself with a pot of traditional varnish and a bit of time.
So, is the class dead because no new boats have been made?  Probably not.  But are many people are looking at the older boat designs instead of buying new?
Cheers

Or perhaps people are just generally reluctant to commit to the major expense of buying a new boat in the current financial climate?  How many people actually feel that secure in thier current jobs that they can/want to commit to a new boat.  This is a hobby after all......

I think what is of particular concern is how the bottom is falling out the market. I own a feeling foolish...not sailed it for 6 months..but when I see other newer ones struggling to sell for a couple of grand it makes my heart sink. To me that shows that there is a limited market for  even reasonably priced "plastic fantastics" which in my mind are not that complex to sail. It does not bode well for the future. Will I sell it? not a chance I would rather wait in the hope that prices will recover.
 
martin

Martin, I believe the question people are asking themselves is, ‘how much am I prepared to spend and still sail in the B fleet?’  The unsurprising answer is ‘certainly not more than a couple of K’.  While people have added foils to existing boats they’ve still not kept up with the new designs.  The foil retrofits have either been expensive and compromised, or full on Heath Robinson.  That’s why apart from a couple of very recent designs the second hand values are what they are

 

I don’t see those prices recovering, if you don’t want to sail it anymore cut your losses now.  You call them ‘Plastic Fantasics’, they may be still be plastic but they’re no longer considered fantastic.  The latest foil influenced designs have done for them.

 

This establishes the fact that if you want a competitive boat you need a new one, and £12K is a lot of money to join the pool of competitive boats.  It’s even less attractive when you consider that pool consist of probably less than 15 boats.  That takes us back to Kevin’s point mentioned earlier, a healthy racing class requires a healthy pool of competitive boats.  That pool doesn’t currently exist and so it’s even harder to encourage the commitment required to join.

 

It’s chicken and egg and there don’t appear to be many chickens or eggs.  On that theme you could consider the current financial situation, high fuel costs, the other demands on people’s time, and ever increasing competition from other classes as bird flu.

In my opinion, this is a development class, what is actually needed is more builders to explore more ideas.  The boats have got more complicated, because no-one has built a simpler N12 that can compete.  If someone could make a boat with just kicker, downhaul, out-haul, main & jib sheets that could compete with the top boats, then I'm sure the trend for more and more complicated boats would be reversed.  If the price was significantly lower, it might force the P2 & DCB builders to find ways to lower their prices.
 
What I believed happen is a change of how people build boats.  Instead of lots of amatures building their own boats, I believe people are buying boats and adding new ideas to them.  Although it is possible for any-one to build a epoxy-carbon hull, it is not simple and certainly not the same as creating something out of wood.
 
As a final thought, there was a new design in 2011, Sweet Chariot that could be ordered in pack form to be built at a seamingly very resonable price of £2300 (minus mast, foils & fittings).  I have no idea how competitive this design has been, but the consept harks back to an older era.
 
(p.s. I have a very uncompetitive Paper Dart but have a lot of fun in it - I believe that there are lots of people like me at clubs around the country.  This doesn't help the visual impact of the top-end of the class though)

Quote from: 824What of the rest of the fleet?....Have they retired from the arms race, to potter around in their 'non-competive old boat' at thier local club?  Join the vintage fleet?  CVRDA?

In the Midlands, we have quite a competitive AC fleet, with a lot of competing boats.  Adding to that the 4-plank series and the Vintage champs and prizes, we almost have a prize for every era of boat here.

Rondar et al valiantly attempted to build a simple budget boat a few years back.

The issue is you require a carbon rig, carbon foils, a fair number of rig controls, and these days a winged rudder and control system.  However simple and cheap you make the rest of the boat that adds a significant amount of cost.

I don’t believe you can build a top flight boat without those items.  You’ll notice that the chariot you refer to didn’t supply any of the expensive components.

I think the suggestion that a cheap simple competitive boat being the answer is so unrealistic that it probably distracts from the important debate on how to improve the current position of the class.  I’d like to win the lottery, but as I won’t it’s not a factor I use in planning my life.

The vintage fleet highlights what I mean, this is how it used to be. The enthusiasm in the fleet was brilliant and it wasn't all down to the depth of your pocket. I know what you mean about the second hand market. 3441 is up for sale at less than £2500 and that boat has a serious record.
i think people still perceive these post admirals cup boats as being over complex and to me the issues are how can we convince people to sail these boats. Great publicity winning the Bloody Mary! And other top 10 results but what else can be done to get people to fork out £12000 when even Merlin's are not much more. What do we offer.
if this isn't the way to go then what can we do with the rules. Get rid of foiling rudders, cut out exotic materials, restrict placing of exotic materials to high stress areas around the mast, shrouds?  
The problem with Fyfe boats kit boat is that they have not promoted the boat at all and people want to see some success before they try some untested product. If they got it out on the circuit they might get some sales but at the moment they could be buying a real dog.
when I started this post I really wanted positive ideas to improve things. I know some of the top guys look in on the forum and I would love to see how they perceive the state of the class. Are they happy with the status Quo or are they concerned too. What would they do to turn things around.
one problem is the apparent emphasis on having a boat to win the Burton  or silver National which does not automatically produce the best boat for the average club racer, who is in many wYs the core. Of the National 12 fleet. Most of these tend to sail Admirals Cup boats as they are more appropriate for sailing on rivers and gravel pits etc. clubs which are at the heart of the class

Stu,
I learned to sail in the 1970s and the club scene was striking back then. Enterprise fleets were strong, Grads good, Miirrors plenty, Fireballs etc etc. I just bicycled to ac lub not moe than 10 minutes away (Fairfield GSC), donned a spray suit, and blagged a ride.
Some of the best times I had were team racing in Ents and Larks on the Uni circuit in '78, '79 & '80. There, that dates me!
I spent time away from the scene, perhaps 20 years, and when I returned it all seemed so different. You cannot place your hand on a crew like you used to and many who come to the sport want independence and the thrill of holding the tiller. So the Laser numbers really exploded through the 80s and 90s. Don't you think the times are so different from the golden era?
Of course their has been proliferation in the number of classes available to choose from, and the one design, low maintenance, ready to sail types like the RS200 appeal to people.
I hate to get too technical or sound like an economist but the business of money supply (new money coming into the economy) is no longer keeping pace with demand (The collective expectaion of gains) so money has become a scarce entity. Unless a person has chosen their occupation well the chances are that anuual pay awards are not keeoping pace with the rising costs of enrgy and food, so people's level of disposable income has been shrinking. 
The way i see it there are things the class could modify or alter, but the major challenges facing the class sit beyond its influence.
I do think you are right in many ways that it is a shame the golden era is not with us anymore, and that the AC period was perhaps the 12s finest hour, but there is a lot about the N12 that equates to horses for courses, so there are options available for people with alternate agendas and contrasting budgets. I don't regret buying mine. My only regret is taking up with an interest that has kept me occupied and off the water since May 2009. Hopefully we shall wet our bottoms in 2014. 
Something that does matter to the class though is preservation. Sure, more new builds would be good, but boats poorly stored and rotting away under disintegrating covers is a loss of a distinguished heritage. National 12s have special place in the history of sailing, and I hope they have a future too.
Something I have sometimes wondered about is how would you stand building a new boat, single bottomed, and conforming to the concept of an AC?

How I love these arguements, everybody has there ideal 12 and thinks somehow we should have frozen in time with that. I kid you not there is somebody out there thinking we should have stuck with solid wood planks and nails and somebody thinking how much better a 12 would be with a spinaker and trapeze and all the rest of us are somwhere in between, but I am afraid you are stuck with us for better or for worse so either put up or get a divorse. Yes if you want to change the rules do some lobbying and go to the AGM but remeber it is evolution so the only way is up! So if Jo Richards has sent us up a cul-de-sac so be it there is no turning back.
I would also suggest that if and when Scotland get Independence that the scottish national 12 will not allow double floors or sticky out things on the rudder and anybody found trying to smuggle sticky out things across the border will be grralocked.
Also new sles is not the onlt way to judge the vibrancy of a class.
He Chris I never realised you were so much younger than me kid:)

icarus interesting point pity in a way you make the comment through the cloak of anominity anyway the issue as Chris says is supply and demand currently there is very little demand throughout the fleet I think even a dcb sold a while back for 5 big ones. Who wants to spend 12 of them to lose such a huge amount in such a short space of time. If the class is serious about the future and can ignite demand then these older boats will have buyers. It's just the market is flat and it does nothing to install confidence in the class. 
Martin 3458

It's with interest that I have followed this discussion.
 
For a while I have believed that the class went the wrong way when we voted in the double floors, and yes I voted for them at the time. And possibly we can go even farther back when we allowed smooth hulls, and yes again I voted for them too!
 
Having campaigned what was possibly the original double floored Twelve - 3396 - I was happy with the concept and hence the builds of 3435 and 3444, however seriously dodgey knees, a thickening of the waist band etc made me realise that actually sailing a modern Twelve wasn't fun any more so I traded up to a Merlin. I wasn't the first and doubt that I will be the last to do so. 

I thus joined a thriving class with good class racing no matter where you were in the fleet, new boats are still being built on a regular basis, great comradship, exciting venues, boats that retained their value, shall I go on?
 
Both classes roots were basically the same, indeed a number of Merlins were scaled up Twelves and visa versa. Oh and isn't the Lark a March Hare on steroids? 
 
So whilst the Merlins continued with their traditional values the Twelves went experimenting, the Merlins thrived and the Twelves withered.

Now this is a good debate that I am sure will offer up some good points of view.
From my side I have sailed in the Class since the late 60's when I crewed for my father and today still "race" the same boat. (N1833). I recently acquired another 12 for Club racing (N2701!).
The Class has always attracted those who like to experiment and fiddle and that is part of the beauty of the N12's. Linked to this there has also always been the issue of the pace of evolution to ensure that a new design innovation doesnt automatically render all the existing boats uncompetitive.....that matter appears partly covered now with the NTOA guidance of historical handicaps that should be applied for 12's of different ages. Unfortunately not all Clubs will adopt these. That said we have a situation where N12 Open meetings are now supported by boats from all sections of the fleet with clinker boats lining up alongside DCB's at the start line. 
However the latest stat's of new boat builds are somewhat worrying, although only time will show whether, as in the past, this is a mere blip or a distinct trend.
Overall we have a decline in boats being built, decline in numbers attending Burton Week and certain Open meetings, and a decline in NTOA membership.
There are potentially many factors at work here. And that is an essay in itself. Nonetheless its a concern.
John asks if the introduction of double floors was a retrograde step? My nagging concern is the introduction of foils...to win at the top level of the fleet it would seem that one must have a foiling DCB design but relatively few of them have been built. They are expensive and somewhat complex...
Has the Class taken a turn down an evolutionary cul-de-sac? Only time will tell. 
Personally I would like to see larger numbers of N12's being raced from Club level to Championship level. I have always been for consolidation over innovation. Just my view.

Historically, when the class was originally started there was a limit on how much that could be spent on a boat.  A noble idea, that was never going to work for all sorts of practical reasons, reading from Robin Stevenson's books.  But is this the issue?  Currently the modern National 12 is beyond what most people can or want to afford.  And it would seem that now, a professional build is the only answer(?) for these new boats, built with these exotic materials.  Whatever the external pressures are, a new boat is out of reach for most.  This has always been the case, with any class.  But, perhaps, more so now.  Whether it is the pace of developement that is the culprit, or lack of disposable income.  Or the proliferation of other classes, that might promise the same thrills for less outlay?  Or the current fashion for Asymetrics?
Perhaps, all that is needed to is to embrace the whole class as it stands today.  As is already being done in the vintage/classic fleet?  And instead of discarding the olders designs, keep them racing.  Fleets could be age related.....50s, 60s, 70s, 80s......This is probably not a new idea....

I remain to be convinced that cost is the reason for the lack of boats being built, I am sure that there are deeper rooted problems that need to be addressed.
 
I had a very interesting conversation with Kevin Driver yesterday on many things Twevle related standing beside the DCB molds that hadn't been used for about 2 years. From his prospective he needs a run of 6 boats to make it commercially viable, the Solo's, Grad's, Scorps', Streakers apparently have all managed to do that this winter as do the RS boats that they build for LDC. They are even in discussions on a build project for another National class where Kevin has built a prototype and is looking to take a mold and built 10+ boats.
 
With this in mind we looked at the Twelves that we had built, sailed and why. We both agreed that in all the above classes boats were being built for class members as a whole whilst the Twelves being built were for people aspiring to win Burton Week.
 
We then considered the physical profile of the people who can sail a Twevle compared to a Merlin, Scorpion etc and the truth is that you have to be on the lighter side on the current norm (Rules me out but Kevin the Whippet would still be ok!) Is the current national diet producing better nourished and hence larger people than the '60's and '70's did?
 
I wonder if we looked at the heyday of the class when boats were being built in garages, front rooms, student accomodation and anywhere else you could think of and get hold of. People had less pressures on their time, the life blood of the class - our children - didn't have computers, i-phones & social media to distract them to name up a very few.
 
I could go on, but possibly the class needs to look at itself very hard and establish exactly what it's offer and appeal is and then persue that route.
 
On a personal level I would like to see many more of the 'old' boats rescued from languishing and rotting away in the back of dinghy parks and brought back to life and am doing exactly that with Dinsdale. Ok Dinsdale will never be a competitive open meeting winner again but I will have a boat that I can do the occasional vintage wing open or CVDRA event with. But most importantly I will have a boat to enjoy sailing for the sake of sailing itself.

As someone who started in 12's and has recently return because they offer lots fun to sail  and good boat to sail with my girlfriend.  Kez hasn’t done lots of sailing and I feel 12’s offer the perfect comprised between a boat which isn't too complicated to sail (no spinnaker- symmetric or asymmetric) but interesting enough to stop me getting bored. It is said to have left a class in what seemed to be in rude health and returned to find the 12's looking sickly.

It's not all bad the classic fleet looks to be growing nicely. With plenty of people rescuing lots of boats from a fiery end and on personal note I hope the new 4 planker series follows the success vintage series. This also isn’t a bad time to get into 12 sailing as you can pick up a decent boat without breaking the bank. Plus it can't be all doom in Gul is still happy to support the national series.

But there does seem to be a feeling something is wrong and if I'm honest I have felt it before I left (I've been out of sailing for 10 years and left 12's a couple of years before that) This might be down to the fact that even though 12's inspired me to take my sailing further and get into boat building. When it came to designing and building my first boat I had already moved over to cherubs. Because I felt they offered me a more open set of rules to experiment. Looking around I don't seem too alone MikeyC is doing very well with is Rocket in the Moths and other people I used to sail with are sailing B14's. There also seems to be a lot of people who have migrated to Merlin's and other RS products. I don't know whether this is because they offer a wider weight range, there's better fleet racing or it's the case of sailing what friends/club sail. Judging by what John Murrell post these all might be the case.

New 12's have become expensive but the ball park cost of fitting out any boats is the same. In fact I could easily spend the same on a complete refit of Subversion as I did when I bought her. It's also worth remembering campaigning a boat to win a national title is never going to cheap in any class. But 12k for a new boat is lot of money to spend especially in this economic climate. In saying that, if you did spend the money given the pace 12 development you will get plenty use out of hull before you have to think about up grading (Dead Cat Bounce 2008). I guess there is still lots of optimization left to do with foils and their control systems. So given time there might be more of trickle down of technology bring old boats up to spec. This in turn should lead to increase in the knowledge base and tempt more people into designing new hulls. After all if really want win you stand a better chance if do more than buy a boat off the shelf. But this all depends on much and how many people are kicking new ideas about and playing with new ideas.

As already mentioned there have been some big changes in the wider world which the class cannot control. The committee and members just have to be aware of them and react accordingly. So fuel bills have gone up and there is a crowded market place. If there isn’t a regular flow of new people into the class bringing in new ideas and not discounting all the hard work it takes to run a class association. If people have got stuck in roles with no one coming forward to take their place can suck their enthusiasm from the committee and lead to stagnation. It is notable no one any of the committees has posted yet! And the forum does seem pretty dead these days.

A couple things are confusing me. The first is if double floors have made the boat uncomfortable to sail for some people. Why hasn't there more experimentation with lower floors or higher shear lines or semi draining boats. The other is the introduction of winged rudders. In class which has taken conservative approach do the adoption to new ideas. Having not around for last 10 years it seems winged rudders  were experimented with freely leading full adoption with boats being designed especially for them. I do wonder why during this period there is still some aversion to rudder gantries which might make life easier to convert existing boats. I also wonder why boats are still sailing around with lead in their masts (I hope I'm wrong on this). I also wonder why the sail plan hasn't evolved to free up restrictions around battens and sail shape. To me the boats still look very traditional but now sporting the latest in foil technology. I just feel like the 12 is giving out mixed messages.  

 With Crusader 3244 I also wonder if the RYA's long term trend for using single handers to teach people to sail is having an effect. I also wonder if then leads/pushes people into sailing SMODs. This is leading to lack crews and people who don’t get fazed by a boat with more than 3 control lines. This before they have start getting their heads round the fact all the boats aren't the same and if don't like something/think it can be done better you can change it.

 A good course of action might be a campaign of  'have a go 12's days' or when ever someone's intrested in your 12 take them sailing. It might also be worth doing some cunning marketing pushing clubs where there is still a strong 12 fleet and making more use of facebook and Twitter. The open circuit is still very strong while the numbers have dropped there looks to be plenty of close racing at all levels the fleet. This also worth shouting about! Remembering that to get to the front of the 12 fleet you are going to need to be good as the standard is very high.

The website does this very well  it's also worth promoting the second hand boat list with DB boats around the 2k mark. As good stepping stone into the class which will be lots of fun to sail along with giving you chance to still bag some decent results at club level and open events. As most boats around this price band have still lots of racing life left in them.
While on subject of promotion I remember I had a chat about 12's with a work mate. He mentioned he always felt the class was wasn't selling itself very well. Sorry, but he also felt the class was mostly sailed by old people who didn't really know why different developments had taken the route they had. I can kind’a  vouch for this at this year’s Dinghy Show while it is nice to be offered cake (being given cake is always good in my book) after brief chat my current idea about comfort over performance (I'm thinking rigging Subversion with a gnav) the conversation drifted into idiosyncrasies of measuring gunwale overhang. I'm an all round boat nerd and I could feel myself getting bored. Sorry guys I’m not getting at you and it was good to chat.

All this aside, there still some hope having returned to Ely sailing club last year there is one cadet at Ely who mad keen on his 12 sailing. Which is part of reason for me getting back into sailing and sailing 12’s from here I have been inspired to organize a 4 planker at Ely. In the hope it will inspire more people to get 12 sailing. Both of us have also benefitted from range of boats on offer on the second boat list. I was able to get back into 12 sailing for under 500 notes and he has just up graded his Crusader to Foolish for under 2K. Something which has got me thinking all is not lost is; Kez and me are going to start sailing at Milton Keynes Sailing and on first visit there they were very welcoming and excited about a 12 coming to the club. I have also sailed there a couple of times during their winter series and both times club members have said how good it is to see a 12 sailing at MK sailing club. Only time will tell is this interest turns into boats on the water. Which has got me thinking about organizing an 12 open there either late summer or early 2015 (this not just because I think it will cool to have a concrete cow trophy ;o)

All our worring could cleared up if there was a post from the people at the coalface manning the stand at this Dinghy Show. Fingers crossed there was tones of sailors keen to know more about 12 sailing and wandering off second boat lists in their hands. You never know someone might be out there now doing the maths and modelling coming up with DCB beater or convincing a boat builder it’s time to get the moulds out.
 
Sorry turned into a essay but I wanted to get most my thoughts and feelings down in one place.

I am not sure any of this debate has changed since the 1990s... and you must all believe me when i say that everybody that has been involved in the running of the class in the last 20 years has been worrying about this and hunting for answers.
I do have my doubts about the merits of this discussion being public....
A few thoughts from me:
1. Dinghy racing is in decline generally - for whatever number of reasons - and two handed dinghies are declining  faster.  I do not think that the cost of a new 12 is the issue - stronger classes like the Merlin are a lot more expensive (think £18-20k new or £10-12k for a good used one).
2.  Being a development class has always put the class in danger of ending up as a small niche.  Even back in the heyday of the 1950s or 1960s there were big one-design classes launching and 'taking' people that might otherwise have sailed 12s.  The Moth was tiny and hit a unique jackpot, the 14s and Cherubs are hardly large and thriving classes.
3.  With hindsight, rather like John Murrell, I wish that we had done things differently with regard to the pace and direction of development.  I was there, and am confident that i spoke and voted in ways that with hindsight i wish i had not.  In particular i think that we let the class change too fast in 1997-9 with both double-floors and carbon rigs on top of a weight reduction.  They might have all been the right decision but they should have started earlier and finished later if they were all going to happen.
4.  The winged rudder was always legal - it was not permitted by a particular rule change and so none of us got to vote against it.  I voted with my feet and sold the boat.  My decision was as much to do with children and circumstance as the rudder development as we could have afforded to buy a DCB and continue to play at the front.
5.  We talk about buying a new boat often at home.  My son would like to crew for me in something faster than a Design 8 and keep up with his friends who now crew for their Dads.  It is not the only reason that we have not bought a boat (time and Oppies are more important factors) but seeing the turnout at events being so weak has certainly not encouraged me to splash the money.
Antony, N3348 but previously owning 3123, 3208, 3286, 3384, 3431, 3447, 3484 and 3514.

Antony, problem is where else can the majority of the class discuss this. Even at the AGM as a none boat owner but worried potential boat owner I could not raise it. I do wonder how the various committees feel about this issue, is it a priority or are they willing to maintain the status quo. As for wings think back to dagger boards. They were totally legal and had been around a number of years before they were perceived, rightly or wrongly, to be bad for the class and were outlawed. In this case even allowing a few boats to have a built in advantage. So historically it would not be such a terrible move to ban winged rudders in the interests of the class and it would be even less painful than the daggerboard situation where some boats had to retro fit regular boards and remove centre/ daggerboards. Those peopl who were around then will understand. The problem, as I see it, is that the committee is mostly built up of people who have or who want to win the Champs/ Burton cup and this development suits their interests. I am sure that they look at the state of the class as a whole but their emphasis is probably somewhat biased. 
To me the class has to do something to engage club sailors more and one area that could be used is a class magazine. This used to be a fabulous cad diction to what you got as a member of the association, what do you get now....... Not a lot for your bucks, and as has already been said bucks are short the more you get the better. I know I felt much more connected to the class when I got my hard copy news letter, in fact I still have most of mine from the 90's onwards. If anyone has any 70/80's they want to do ate I would love them.
I am not sure of the impact of double floors and carbon masts. The class was still healthy. Ally masts could easily be replaced and it was an easy retro fit to improve your A/C boat and get a little more speed. 
really not sure about wings on rudders, what is the next logical step, fully foiling twelves. Perhaps this is a problem.. Perhaps people are wary that this development will continue and make the boat less appealing to average sailors. Ok it's never been the simplest boat to sail but do we want it getting too complex. To me the way forwards is to simplify things, keep the weight limit as t is, reduce the amount of exotic materials and somehow make it more appealing to design and make your own boat.
i think to say there are too many other things about today is a little ingenuous as this has always been the case it was just we had a product which was exciting enough and accessible enough for people to get involved. Perhaps as Ben Brown proposed 10 years or so ago it is time to look at upgrading the sail plan to make the boat look more exciting, fully battered sails, big top etc.
I would hope this thread plants a seed somewhere, however small that might help the class forwards. I didn't want it ever to be a rant at the state f the class and a nostalgic look back at the hayday of the class. I feel we need to do something and we need to do it now

Might help if the class suggest a revised handicap for the double bottomed boats that precede the DCBs. I for one have been struggling to be competitive in handicap fleets during the last few seasons and the latest 9 pt drop is going to hurt.
I would also politely suggest that the new Icon should be a wake up call for the class. A simple 2 sailed boat that carries weight.

Hi all, I hope this comes over in a constructive manner... and maybe you can persuade me to buy a 12!
I have recently been looking at getting a two man boat to sail at my local club with the wife. we only sail on a relatively small pond so a 'simple' two sail boat is required, and therefore on paper, the N12 is ideal. The Ent seems a bit heavy and barge like and we are too small for an alb. If I sailed somewhere bigger, where faster more complex boats could be sailed, then I would buy an RS800 or similar - why sail a slow boat on a big bit of water, especially if everyone else is sailining faster boats?
Most of the time I will be club racing but I would be looking to do the odd nationals and open when time and money allows.  Now this is where the first turnoff jumps out at me... I used to sail t foil 14's so have a bit of experience of sailing with t foils, where generally we used to minimise tacks. Rightly or wrongly, I perceive the t foil 12 as being similar, i.e. not great at quick tacking or generally in the lighter stuff when using a t foil. In my mind it would make a t foil 12 rubbish for my local club. At the same time it's a real switch off buying say a foolish that would be better suited for my local club but on paper can't win any of the big 12 events. Going back to my earlier comment, if I can only sail the boat properly on bigger water then I would buy a properly fast boat. Is this just an urban myth that I have created in my mind? Has the N12 forgotten its routes and limited where a modern 12 can be sailed? Locally most of the 12's are all AC boats but for the above reason this doesn't appeal. 
The second turn off is the perceived competitive crew weight. I consider myself to be fairly small in the grand scheme of things at 5' 10" and 74kg. Me and the other half have a total crew weight of about 21 stone. Again I might have the wrong eng of the stick... But, most 12 sailors I have met make me feel rather heavy in comparison. Talking to friends, both I and others perceived the competitive crew weight for a 12 inland, which is where most club racing happens, to be in the region of 16 to 18 stone. I 'percieve' that me and the wife are just too heavy.  If I had a very young kid then this would be great, but I don't, and I certainly don't feel that I could sail one with a person similar in size to me.
I must confess that I don't know a huge amount about the history of 12's but has the perceived crew weight always been this light or is this a result of fully adjustable carbon rigs? One thing is certain, people in the uk are getting bigger.
Has the average nationals helm or crew age changed much in the last 30 years? I'm just speculating here but are the people that would have historically been 12 sailors now been drawn into the RYA youth squad classes? From my experience, while you might be able to steal the odd person from the 'youth pathway' I would have thought the key market today for the 12 has to be parent and child combinations along with husband/wife, boyfriend girlfriend combinations sailing at your normal inland smallish sailing club. The rs200 seems to be very good at appealing to young couples with time and money along with those coming out of the youth squad system. 
For the 12 to be around in another 40 years time does it need to be a class built bottom up (excitement at club leve with keen club fleets and local open meetings, exciting people enough to want to go to the nationals with club friends to have fun and sail with other 12's) or to be built top down (a need to win mentality where boats trickle down to club level in time as they become uncompetitive at the nationals and where most people are there at the nationals to race)?
I do mean these comments to be constructive and hope that they give people something to think about. To what am I going to buy, well the icon is tempting, but for some reason just doesn't do it for me, I'm still thinking on it...

Having looked at the range of suggested PY’s I’m kinda with Martin that makes sense look into adding another suggested PY.  For either boats not designed for winged rudders or boats not simply not using winged rudders.   I’m also wondering if it is worth taking it further and introduce prizes for boats not using winged rudders. As it might help entice those people who don’t want to get involved with playing with hydrodynamics out and about racing.

On the subject of weight carrying, yeah it’s always been the case that 21 stone is at the heavy end of the weight spectrum. This as much to with anything 12 foot long doesn’t carry weight very well, eg Cherubs are about the same.
 
Re; The Icon I know what you mean I like the look of it as well, it’s just a bit too much of a toned down NS14 for me.  If it’s not another SMOD than it’s another deferent threat for the 12.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-H87-ggorYmw/TYfvw8pXvpI/AAAAAAAAAUM/PgZkvndKOAY/s1600/MTs+Heat2-Scott+Day2.jpg)

It is easier to suggest where the N12 Class has gone wrong than to point the way ahead. There could be said to be both internal and external influences which have shaped the class (and its decline).
Internal: 3 mistakes: a. abandonment of clinker construction
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
It could be argued that there have been internal and external influences which have shaped the class both in its early ascendency and now its sad decline. Internal: l. the abandonment of clinker construction 2. the introduction of the double floor 3. allowing foiling rudders. External: l. the proliferation of market-led alternative classes 2. the difficulty of finding crews when so many youngsters now have their own boats 3. the rise and rise of singlehanded sailing. The foiling rudder just has to be the killer punch. The N12 is now, surely, really a N13 with an extra foot or so aft of the transom quite apart from the turbocharging effect of cleverly manipulated foils  The fact that many of the foilers have had to move the mast aft for best performance perhaps proves the point. Regretably the stable door was left open some years ago and the horse has long gone. Will the class be remembered as the cheaper small brother of the International 14 as it was originally intended to be or as a classic example of the mistake often made of thinking that because you can do something it is automatically the right thing to do. I still have happy memories of my days in the class but not of the way it has been allowed to develop. Nigel Fordyce ex-1149 and 3535.

Nigel
Not sure I agree re clinker construction but otherwise a very succinct summary of the issues!

I agree with Nigel, but I would substitute relaxation of the double curvature rule for clinker construction, this was the moment that FRP or Cold Moulding became the main way to build competitive boats, pretty much killing the home or "one-off" builder, and also making experimentation with design much more expensive.  
The class has also pretty well shot itself in the foot with club racing, at Salcombe, which I think quite recently showed a glimmer of light for class racing, it would appear that the class has hit a bit of a barrier, yes there are plenty on the last generation of boats available at a reasonable price, but the step up to DCB is extremely costly for a boat that is poorly suited to the variable conditions of the estuary.
Maybe you do need to turn the clock back?  There are 11 DCB's on the register, some adjustment or sacrifice needs to be made to these boats in order to get a product that is suited to the venues where 12's are best suited, and where there is a realistic prospect of developing lasting club racing?
Could you reduce the allowable area of foils for boats that have them to a point that the last generation can race level, then ban them of boats going forward?
Development has always pushed toward developing Burton Cup winners, certainly from the time that I was first involved in the class.  Burton Cup = Sea Sailing, yet (and I stand to be corrected) there is possibly only one sea club and one sea open meeting (Tynemouth) on the fixture list.  
The truth is that there are loads and loads of classes being invented that are far cheaper and far more effective on open waters than the National 12.  The class needs to direct its attention to club racing at beat and running tricky venues, that is where it excels.
I don't know if I have the right to comment, or if it is appropriate on an open forum, but I do care, and despite having sailed all sorts of boats with great enthusiasm, I have always considered myself as a 12 sailor who sails an International 14 or Salcombe Yawl or Solo.  I suspect that there are plenty like me, some of whom I race against in my Solo!
All the best.
David
Ex 2925, 3165, 3221, 3281, 3461

Quote from: 1132Having looked at the range of suggested PY’s I’m kinda with Martin that makes sense look into adding another suggested PY.  For either boats not designed for winged rudders or boats not simply not using winged rudders.   I’m also wondering if it is worth taking it further and introduce prizes for boats not using winged rudders. As it might help entice those people who don’t want to get involved with playing with hydrodynamics out and about racing.

 
A prize is given out to Non-foiling boats.  I think one thing we cannot criticise the class over is there attempts to keep people happy by handing out prizes.  The list of different prize winners at Burton Week is pretty long...
 

 
I also turned up in my hopelessly uncompetitive Paper Dart to the Inland Championships 2012 and took away more prizes than any other boat - 4th AC, Oldest (surviving) boat, and first GILL event.  Best weekend sailing I've ever had.

Speaking as an outsider looking in, I wonder if you need to think a bit more about your aims and why your class exists, and also what's going on in the rest of the game.
You surely don't want to be the most popular boat on the water, I mean, we know what that takes, it needs to be a one design, it needs to be built as cheaply as possible, preferably by a single manufacturer or nearly so, it needs to be vaguely fashionable but have next to no innovation... Sure you could turn your class into a vague imitation of that and probably there would be more boats, but what would be the point? What was the quote a long time ago, "What shall it profit a man if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul"?
I'm sure Smilie's right about double bottoms and ergonomics... My last Cherub had barely two inches of false floor at the stern, if rather more further forward. Why not put a bit more freeboard on if its worrying you. Goodness knows you have weight to burn. The question to ask is whether its the helms worried or the forward hands - forward hands obviously have much less space if the boat is going to drain, but if its mainly helms just build it up a bit. Is this an era to go back to wet feet and bailers?
Clinker Hulls? Please. Is there more than *one* vaguely successful clinker hulled class on the entire planet? Home building has almost died out because home building has almost died out in almost every other class, not because you haven't stuck with a heavy outdated form of construction that was mandated by the limitations of the materials available to your great grandfathers. And few things are intrinsically more ridiculous than moulded clinker boats!
Maybe its worth thinking about the rudder foils. For the same amount of money you could add probably 18inches to the hulls, carry more weight for modern substantial sailors, have more flexibility and lots more performance. If you wouldn't consider that why have the foils? The foils do seem to fight against the picture outsiders have of a basically simple concept which is nevertheless refined to extreme sophistication within that simple platform.
Anyway, that's my twoppence worth. Think about where you want to be as a class. You're not going to compete with RS sales figures, so why bother. Plenty of classes have existed indefinitely in niches and provided fun for their owners and development for the sport. Heck, I sail Canoes now, which are up to around 300 boats in the UK since sail numbers started in the 20s, and at the moment are at something of a high in boats built per year...

Quote from: 849
 
A prize is given out to Non-foiling boats.  I think one thing we cannot criticise the class over is there attempts to keep people happy by handing out prizes.  The list of different prize winners at Burton Week is pretty long...

Sorry my bad:B I noticed just after posting prizes being given out for non-foilers this saturday.
Ps Hope you have got the date for the 4 planker event at Ely Sailing club in your diary ;)

Just wanted non N12 people visiting this forum to know

Quote from: 849
 
A prize is given out to Non-foiling boats.  I think one thing we cannot criticise the class over is there attempts to keep people happy by handing out prizes.  The list of different prize winners at Burton Week is pretty long...
 

 
I also turned up in my hopelessly uncompetitive Paper Dart to the Inland Championships 2012 and took away more prizes than any other boat - 4th AC, Oldest (surviving) boat, and first GILL event.  Best weekend sailing I've ever had.

Which is all very laudable but does not address the problems faced by the class at Club level.

So does the class need a simplified 'weight carrier' (and I mean 23 stone and above) with all round sailing ability, i.e. goes as well upwind as downwind for inland waters then?
Or will nobody buy it, even if it existed......
Cheers
Steve

Speaking as one of the youth sailors in the fleet there are several statements in this thread that I disagree with, firstly the under 30’s contingent at burton week last year was stronger than the AC contingent, and the majority of us had winged rudders. Secondly a DCB is not needed to be competitive, Steve Norbury and Andy Hill were one of the fastest boats at BW 2010 in their foolish with winged rudder despite being a lot heavier than most, the Ballantine brothers have been quick in their foolish (built 1998 ) peter was 6^th at BW last Year and 3^rd at the inlands with a rudder they built themselves for under £200, I was second at Norfolk week this year in a foolish and even won a race. Thirdly winged rudders cost less than a suit of sails and last the life of the boat which new sails won’t and you can build one yourself with the adjustment system for less than £100, Steve LeGrys did and his is probably the best adjustment system in the fleet.
You may look at the results and see DCB’s dominating the top spots at Burton week over the last few years but this is mostly because those are the best sailors who have been there.
 A couple of other points worth mentioning, Peter Ballantine had the opportunity to sail the original DCB over the summer last year and decided that it was faster upwind than his foolish but slower around the course than his foolish. I believe the weight range of the boats has gone up with the foiling rudders, I never felt like I was lacking in boat speed against the likes of Graham and Zoe or Tom and Andrea despite sailing the boat a couple of stone heavier (I was almost always over 19 stone normally closer to 20) and this I often felt was to my advantage, I was losing out because I didn’t sail as well as they did. Also on the weight front William Warren and Sophie Mackley qualify for the tubs trophy (for those over 21 stone combined) and lost the champs at Hayling Island in 2012 on count back and would have almost certainly won if they hadn’t gone swimming in the last race.
With the price of second hand foolishes I believe an outsider could win Burton week if they sailed as well as the best DCB with a budget of £4200 (£2200 for the boat, £900 for an ‘off the shelf’ winged rudder, new sails for £1100(or £900 in the sale)) or a lot less than that if they are prepared to put in a bit of work themselves, and there are very few classes with the level of competition the 12 has you can have the boat speed to win in at that price.
 
Another preconception that people seem to have is that boats with wings are difficult to tack, this simply isn’t the case most of the time, it’s only when it’s really windy and you are sat much further back that you need to work out a new way of getting across the boat as the tiller gets in the way, but the wings make gybing significantly easier especially when it gets windier, Lewis and I had no issues gybing at the Steve Nicholson memorial trophy this year when it was exceptionally windy and the run was littered with upturned boats a lot of whom are well respected dinghy sailors.

Nick, very commendable and good to hear you defend the class but surely even the most die hard supporter must see that the class is not in a healthy state. Therefore saying all is well with the class is not the most positive route to take. Even if winged rudders are the best thing since sliced bread if the perception of them s negative is it the best way to go. Having started this thread to try and get peoples opinions it is interesting to see most people feel that one of the big factors is rudders and boats designed around them. However good they are.. If they stop people from sailing twelves are they good for the class. Is this the problem or is it deeper than that. I know a lot of long established 12 sailors now campaign RS 200's which are not such good boats IMHO, so why did they decide to go for this option. I love the developmental aspect of the 12 but only if it keeps the class healthy.  I am not surprised that the youth section of burton week was higher than A/C. People sail A C boats at club level as they know they are uncompetitive against the latest boats and this has always been the case since the 90s. Also Burton Week is not the b all bad end all of the class. But if you look back the number of junior teams is a shadow of what it has been and I think the number of kids sailing 12's at club level is at an all time low. The majority of 12 sailors are well over 40 and many joined the class in the 80/90s. statistics don't lie. Rather than saying how wonderful every thing is we should be asking how things can be made even more wonderful again

Just because someone disagrees with you it does not mean they are wrong.
At no point did Nick say that the class was in a healthy state and that all was well.
If you truly want to help the class you need to be more constructive and not try to belittle someone who has a different opinion to you.
 
The young are the future. Being rude to them is not the way to attract them to the class.
AC boats have always been uncompetitive against the latest boats, not just since the 90s, it is the whole point of having the AC definition.
The number of kids crewing any boats is at an all time low, but I think they are higher now than in the two years prior to foils.
The RYA inclination to take a scatter gun approach and tell anyone who can hold a tiller that they could be an Olympic champion if they follow their path has resulted in far too many youngsters giving up crewing and start helming far too young.
 
The National 12 is a fantastic boat to sail.
I can understand peoples’ frustration at the fewer numbers sailing but cannot agree that it is “not as exciting as other boats in the same category”.  I cannot think of any boats in the same category that are more exciting. More numerous, possibly but anyone who thinks other boats are more exciting should be sailing them.
Burton “week” became 4 days before foiling rudders so it is a red herring to suggest this is the reason for the falling numbers.
 
I think the average weight increase for humans is a factor but I think the main reason is the lack of young people in the class over the last 20 years.
We need to target the teenagers who at 18-21 are looking for somewhere to go.
There are many who become too big and old for 29ers and 420s who have nowhere to go.
I believe people should be more optimistic about the class. The price of a foolish now means that you can acquire a fantastic boat for a relatively modest price. And if we can get a few more university students sailing they will encourage others. I know 3 helms under 21 who have bought 12s because they have seen and talked to Nick.
If those 3 attract 3 more each they class will grow again.
There is no other dinghy which is better for a teenager to sail. The small sail area means they can cope on the water at an earlier age than most of the ‘Adult’ dinghies and they are not too heavy to lug around off the water like most.
The quality of the fleet means they can learn far more from racing against top helms than in most fleets and the willingness of the top guys to help and advise young helms should be praised.
They are also a great boat for a parent/ child combination. In how many other boats can adult helms enjoy sailing with 6 year old children ?
I first sailed a 12 in 1973 and I still enjoy sailing one when I can. 
The fact is that the helms at the top end of the fleet before foils are almost exclusively the same as the helms at the front now.
What we should all try to do is get on the water as much as possible, point out what a great boat the 12 is to others and let them see for themselves.
Every time you sail you are more likely to encourage others which will increase numbers, making sailing more enjoyable and increase the value of your boat.
 
 
Martin- The handicap issue is frustrating, but for handicap racing clubs should provide different handicap numbers for older boats per the RYA handbook.
Your club should do this but it depends on the committee.
Gerald

I love my National 12 (s).  I have gravitated towards a classic N12, because my tall rig, classic Merlin Rocket was a bit of a handful on the sort of lakes I generally sail on, when the wind gets up.  Its a two adult boat, that I was often spilling the wind just to keep her upright, even with another like sized person on board.  The 'lake' wants you to commit youself 100%, just to suprise you with a sudden fluke, direction change or hole - then your in.  The N12 is just that bit more manageable with a light crew.  However, I am not competive, really.  Which is just as well.  I have not seen 12 stone for 25 years or more, and unlikley to do so unless I lop a leg off.  My 'ideal weight for height' is above that.  And I am only 5' 10".  Which means my crew has to be very light to stand any chance.
My questions, above are about finding out.  I am not trying to 'stir the pot'.  But it has to be said that a new N12 would not be on the cards for me, even if I had 12 grand and the permission from the boss to spend it.  Not only am I too fat, but I am, fankly, not a good enough sailor to justify it.
So my vote is for the ye olde glued clinker of the 60's, and I will not be troubling any one at the front.
Did I mention I have a fetish for wood......
regards
Steve Hawkins

Evening all
I have had bit of dig back through the google data mine yesterday  back to when the idea of t foils was first being kicked about. Actually there‘s loads of info out there to read for anyone who’s been out the loop for a while. And found a post from when the idea of t foils was first being kicked about, I can’t remember who posted and I can’t find my way back to it ( I think I might have dreamed it) but it basically said after the 14’s had done the planning end of foil development, the 12’s have got the chance to focus on the displacement end of foil development.  

So taking on board what the mighty JimC said about bracing what you have got celebrating it. This got me thing as opposed to being down on t foils people go back to thinking about of making ways optimizing them for area’s 12’s sail in. After it’s already been proved t foils help reduce the total displacement of the boat. So that’s gotta’ help with weight caring abilities.  
 
Also how difficult would it be to come up with an PY for non-foiling doubled bottomed boats?

Hi, lots of opinions here.  I wish more people sailed N12s than they do.  It worries me that fewer people want them.  I fear they have progressively become more complex in a world where many people want off the shelf.
I am commited to the Class.   I have been Class chairman twice as the class has been in decline.  I have purchased 3 of the last 30 boats built. This includes trying to get the budget Rondar boat going 5 years ago and a one off two years ago.
I love sailing with both my wife and my children.
I enjoy spending time with the people who sail these boats.
I think that the modern boats are more exciting than the previous generation.  I think that there remains a huge opportunity within the rules to try new things.  This may concern others into trying new things.
Interestingly Jo Richards advocates allowing wooden built planked boats to be allowed a lower weight limit to promote more amateur building.  I fear that this is a small market and that building is complex when customers want more off the shelf.  
Crew weight is a perceived issue, but I have always been at the top end of it and have coped.  Foils are fun although transporting them around needs a little bit of planning.  The rule change to limit size is useful.  T-foils are quick all around somewhere like Salcombe so I think the restricted water comments are wrong.
My issue with the boat / current rule set is that our sails have got a little out of hand if you go for all the unmeasured area that is possible the jib does not last very long.  
As stated by Nick, the Ballantine home rudders are excellent and can be copied and retro fitted to a foolish for example.  
However things are not rosy.  I am pretty sure that the average age of the N12 sailor has gone up a little every year for the last 25 years as sailors hung on and insufficient people joined the class.  The boats are better than they were 25 years ago, and probably relatively better boats than the competition.  However, being a better boat may not be enough on its own.  The reality is that there are very few classes which can argue to be in very good health.  I will name the Merlin and Solo as two but am struggling to give you a third.  However, without doubt there are more which are in better health than we are.  
The most important metric is people going sailing.  3543 is in the shed but we have borrowed a non t-foil foolish for Burghfield this weekend.  Why don't you come along?

One thing the N12 has got, is a very rich history, with many designs from many different eras.  Along side the modern sharp end of sailing, the class should continue promote and possibly expand the support for the racing of older designs.  Perhaps sharing venues with the CVRDA (Classic and Vintage Racing Dinghy Association) like the Merlin Rockets occasionally do.  I understand there is a renewed interest in 4 plankers which is a step in the right direction as long as they are raced with the age appropriate gear.  I understand this is well in hand.  These older designs still have much to offer and interest in them can only steady the price of those more recent designs.
Steve H

Some further great contributions by all...and great to see input from those at the top/front of the fleet; ie Nick C and John M. Some further thoughts from me....
People like Nick are the future of the Class.  We need more people in 12's, and to do that we need to market ourselves; ie be seen. Winning the Blooody Mary has to be one of the highest profile marketing efforts we can make. However it has long been said and I still think it true; to build the Class we need to focus on building Club fleets.
Whether we like the direction the Class has taken or not, we are where we are.
With respect to building Club fleets - the beauty of the Class is that we have a vast number of older boats available at very affordable prices, which are competitive in Club handicap fleets if the NTOA handicaps for the older boats are adopted. I long campaigned in the 90's that our "feeder" for the front of the fleet was these older boats....and now with the tiered handicaps we have made them a viable Club racer and thus a viable entry point into the Class. The one thing 12 sailors tend to have in spades is passion for the Class; and that does rub off on others from other classes when we mingle and chat. Then when they then find out that the beautiful eye catching varnished Crusader that just trounced everyone only cost £750 they are amazed! Once into the Class the path is clear....the Club sailor may wish to go travelling, and thus upgrade their boat....and so on....ultimately I believe this is the path to secure greater numbers in new boats at the front of the fleet.
At Solway YC last year some of the Club youngsters were press ganged into the front of some of the visitors 12's....one in my clinker Mk9 and one in in a Baggy Trousers. The sailing was exhilerating...waves and wind! These young crews thoroughly enjoyed their experience, and when they found that they could get a competitive Club racer for very little money they were amazed. The last I heard they were looking for a Paper Dart or Design 8 or similar. What these potential newcomers also saw was the real breadth of the Class with a broad representation of designs on the start line, from double bottomed Foolishes, AC designs and clinker boats all competing alongside each opther and all vying for position...which illustrated  that an older boat was a viable entry to the Class. A great selling point in my view.
For 2014 I will again try and qualify for the Scottish, Northern and Vintage Travellers series...but my main aim this year is to try and promote the Class at Club level. Which simply means turning up and going sailing...and chatting to fellow Club sailors. At Cramond we are lucky...they will adopt the tiered handicaps for older boats, and they dont mind if we sail single handed on occasion.
Anyway I'll sign off with Steve's comments....I am similarly overweight...as an ex rugby player, now in my 50's I am far too big and heavy for the Class, but always have been. My worn out knees will never allow me to compete in a double floored boat, so a new 12 is  "not be on the cards for me, even if I had 12 grand and the permission from the boss to spend it.  Not only am I too fat, but I am, frankly, not a good enough sailor to justify it"......however the Class does has a perfect boat for me, my Mk9 (1833) carries weight well and doesnt seem to care whether I have 25 or 21 stone aboard, and I can sit quite happily without a creak or crack from the knees....and it actually seems to go quite well...well enough anyway!

Quote from: 474
 My issue with the boat / current rule set is that our sails have got a little out of hand if you go for all the unmeasured area that is possible the jib does not last very long.  

Back when I was doing a bit of competitive 12 sailing I often thought it would much better to de-regulate the rules around sails and move to system were just measure total actual area or close as you can. Also weirdly I’m just going back and wading through frank bethwaite’s High Performance sailing and in the section talking about setting up the NS14 he talks about the problems of using sail measurement systems were don’t measure the total area and the leave things like the roach free. ( I would like to caveat this statement by saying I’m not proposing changes the rules to get more people into 12’s but you have it might work eg. The cherubs change from ‘97 rules to ’05 rules)

Quote from: 474  The rule change to limit size is useful. 

This worries me that a restriction on wing size might restrict evolution. I always like to rely on the natural restrictions like drag and materials. Unless there is a real danger of development producing something undesirable eg. Having no restrictions over mast/luff length

Quote from: 824I understand there is a renewed interest in 4 plankers which is a step in the right direction as long as they are raced with the age appropriate gear. 

 
Yup four events 5^th July at Ely SC, 20^th July at Trent Valley SC and 16^th at August Olton Mere SC. And yes like the vintage champs no carbon spars, foils, wings or trim taps.

One thing I think should be done right away:  The Class Chairman, Chairman of the Technical Committee and Chief Measurer should jointly write a letter to be sent to all clubs where N12's are sailed explaining the reasons that the class have derived age-related handicaps and asking them to implement them in club racing.  This will help us with older boats get more recognition at club level.

I spoke to Baz Edmonds of the RYA at the Dinghy Show about age related handicaps for development classes. He said the the RYA system was capable of producing these if there was sufficient data. Those of us with older boats should encourage our clubs to send electronic returns to the RYA. (The 2014 Yardstick display names those Clubs which have sent returns.)
The other thing is to race when the conditions are not ideal for your boat. You may get a poor result but this will then help increase your Yardstick.
I know of one class (NOT the N12!) which does very well in light winds and poorly in strong winds. The ownwers tend not to sail in force 4 or above. They are then surprised that their PY no reflects that classes light weather performance only.

[size=8px;" size="2">http://www.national12.org/private/Guides/handicaps.shtml (http://www.national12.org/private/Guides/handicaps.shtml) </font>
<font style="font-size: 8]Jonathan...the Class publishes the guidance on tiered handicaps on the web page above. You should take this to your Club committee. The RYA make it clear that they only make RECOMMENDATIONS to clubs.....and also that the clubs should develop their own handicap list to tailor for their local factors and if a handicap is deemed to be "wrong" it is for the club to analyse race data and make an adjustment if required. It therefore all comes down to individuals and the Clubs themselves. In my case at Loch Tummel SC they would not adopt the tiered handicapping system despite my attempts to persudae them that it was fair. The fact that i was beating RS200's over the water probably didnt help my cause. My current club Cramond seem much more amenable. Suggest you take it to your Club's Committee....Good Luck!

The class association list of suggested handicaps for older boats was in existence long before the fast track system of py adjustment was introduced by the RYA. If the class could suggest a PY for the early double bottomed boats without winged rudders which prospective owners could show their Clubs it might just help kick start the 2nd hand market and get some of the excellent boats currently for sale moving into new and active ownership.
Unfortunately not all clubs are confident enough or willing to play around with PYs themseles and reasoned guidance such as this would be beneficial.

I just think that an official letter from the Technical people at the class would have much more weight behind it.  They could also explain what initiatives are making the latest boats faster - initiatives that my Paper Dart will never have.

Why not put a generic 'official letter' or explanatory document on the website, for owners to download and present to their clubs.  With a bit more detail about RYA policy and pertinant references, etc.  This could be presented in such a way to 'blow out the water' any of the usual arguments for not doing anything.....
Cheers