Greetings All!
Forgive the pun, but I am "testing the water" for any interest in running an event for 4 plank N12s, a group of N12s which seems to have been overlooked in the past. We do have a 4P category at the Trent Valley September open meeting but with the apparent success of the Vintage Champs what about one for the "Forgotten Fours"?
One thought is that it might possible to run a Four Plank champs alongside the Vintage Champs with the same series of six races over a weekend (Derwent Handicap on the Saturday and scratch on the Sunday) with 4P starts five minutes before the vintage?
Four plank designs will include Paper Darts, Cheshire Cats, Windfalls, Pipedreams, but the inclusion of the still competitive Final Chapters and Man o Wars might unbalance things? :o
Interested in your comments! If there is sufficent interest, we would need to start planning now!
RVSP soonest
Px N2750 Cheshire Cat 8)
Paul - yes if Indecision would qualifies? Baaed on Burton Week performance not sure we'd qualify as a performance risk :)
I think that your yot is a cold moulded D8, and therefore (sadly) deos not qualify as a 4 planker.:'(
Quite right there. Must be time get a second boat then...
Hey Paul, I would be very interested in a 4 plank series!!
There only seems to be only a few 4-plank boats on the circuit (correct me if I'm wrong)
And there are so many boats out there, and they still show some promise against the newer boats!
At olton mere we now have 2 pipe dreams, a windfall, china doll and a final chapter so there are possibly 4-5 boats rite there!
Tom white (2765)
Hi Tom. I wasn't suggesting a full series just bolting on six races for 4ps onto the Vintage Champs! And we now have two Cheshire Cats at TVSC, plus a Paper Dart. Let's see who else is out there. P8)
My chapter is of course 4 plank but I don't think I'm particularly in danger of upsetting any balance!
I think if there is going to be a a 4 plonker... sorry 4 planker event there must be a cut off date only allowing desgins before that date as there is with vintage boats. It seems to me there is little point in having a 4 planler event that would have china dolls and cheshire cats etc competeing against Db chapters. I would also exclude any retro fitted DB boats from such an event.
I would be up for it with subversion 2905 if I have not sold it
Think a cut off number of 2911 would be a good idea that way it excludes 4 planners like umbrella that pushed the rules to go round lol
Paul
I may well be up for it having just acquired 2701 for Club racing. Trouble is I now have a "ribbie"(402), a vintage (1833) and a four planker...so I shall find it very hard to decide which boat to bring. I suppose in my mind 1833 is my racer (ie boat to trail to Opens)....2701 is parked in the Dinghy Park for Club use, and 402 might get out for a gentle sail occasionally....
As the temporary custodian of a Cheshire cat I think it owuld be fun. The problem with Angus' suggestion is where do you stop? Is Tom excluded because he has a carbon mast? So why shouold a DB not be allowed.
Other feed back has been that to include the 4 plank event with the vintage champs could give some sailors a bit of a problem - do they sail their vintage or their 4p? I had not thought of that and should have done as I now own Cheshire Cat N2750! So where and when to hold this magnificent event? Any volunteers?
My personal feeling is that DBs (being FCs and MoWs are a much newer designs and at a major design advantage) should not be included.
Px 8) N2750
My chapter may be a much newer design, and has had a double bottom retro-fitted, but is a wood built 4 planker - and from what I remember, weighs more than my chesire cat did, so no advantage in that. It also fits the class definition of an Admirals Cupper - the double floor makes no difference, and I would guess that it would confer little advantage, as capsizes are pretty rare when you think about it. I'd also argue that the choice of venue may give a design advantage to some of the narrower boats over mine.
We have several 4 plankers at the Mere - we'd be happy to add this to our meeting in October.
Paul
I concur...that in having a 4Planker event separate from Vintage evnts would allow those of us who have both to potentially do both.
And...in terms of definition, my view of the 4Plankers being talked about here are those boats constructed prior to the Admiral's Cup Crusader/Baggy era that was kicked off by Punkarella. (ie Not Final Chapter's...)
Hi Paul I agree that adding 4 plankers to our vintage champs may indeed water down both events so would support keeping them seperate and as numbers may be small tagging on to an existing small water open such as Olten could work well. 8) Not having a 4 planker I will stay clear of any debate as to what should or should not be allowed to compete!
After much deep and profound thought (42) I think that the best inclusive format (subject to public outcry) would be:
1. A 4P event entirely stand alone, separate from the Vintage Champs and not part of, or run at the same time as, events for the Midland Area, Vintage or any other series.
2. The rules should be the same as those for the Vintage Champs (except the boats must be four plank!) in order to maintain some level playing field (speed and cost) for those competing. The main exclusions are double floors, carbon masts, foiling rudders and trim tabs.
Apolgies to FuzzyDuck and Tom who would have to put his old iron mast back onto Le Shed.
Would be delighted if Olton Mere would like to host, but not as part of the Midland Series please!
Px 8) N2750
Calendar at Olton is flexible - and happy to hold a 2nd event.
We have a walock from this era 2642 would it qualifie even though it is a glass hull
Alan
Lucky I didn't throw away my old tin stick then! may need to re-rig it though and go to the gym to get ready for lifting it again!!!
Looking forward to the event though!
tom white (2765)
Alan, Yes Warlocks, like other plastic 12's of this era eg Paper Darts etc qualify.....
This sounds a great idea. I'm new to 12s and loving it so far although I'm still feeling my way to be honest. I have a Cheshire Cat N2760 distinctly lacking carbon, trim tabs, winged rudders or any other trickery! Any proposed calendar yet?
I also have a spare Al Mast / Boom if anyone needs one ....... ;)
No apologies needed Paul, 2881 is as standard as they come
Simon
What about carbon booms, would they be allowed?
Thinking about 4 planker events next year I could always ask if Ely Sailing Club would be intrested. It's a perfect 4 planker lake, I'm there sailing Subversion and Jack Knight and me are trying to get the 12 fleet going again there. It could be a good excuse to show Ely's current group of members what they are missing. They have sorted out the launching and now have white matts on the jetty so no more nasty black marks left on your boat.
Interested to see that this thread has re-ignited as I was just about to start work on Cheshire Cat!
Although carbon booms are easier on the head if you don't duck when gybing I think we should stick to what was available on 4 plankers when they were orginally built, so my vote is for no carbon anywhere.
Perhaps we should talk to Gerald Copsey? I have asked him if we might include Ely's open meeting in the Midland Area for 2014 as it was historically and this year it wasn't included in any area.
Pehaps a short standalone series of 4 plank meetings to include Olton Mere, Ely and TVSC, but NOT as one of the Midland or other series?
Px N2750 Cheshire Cat 8)
Sounds good!
Sounds like a plan :)
I don't think Gerald Copsey is a member at Ely any more but I'm more than happy to act as contact for Ely Sailing club for the mo. I will ask Jack Knight to run it past the comittee at their next meeting.
On the subject of of the black stuff; Depending on how far I end up going on Subversion's winter refurb. I'm thinking about possibly re-taping her chines with carbon tape and maybe running some u-d along the high load areas, plus maybe hanging the control line cleats of some carbon plate. If I do will this mean she won't qualify for the 4 plankers series ? These are only ideas so there's a far chance I won't add any carbon and refurbish her they way she was made.
Yo Smilie
I think what we are seeking to avoid, as per the vintage fleet champs, is carbon masts, and foils - carbon reinforcement seems ok to me.
No consensus on booms yet......
Px N2750 Cheshire Cat 8)
Ok, I will keep the black stuff on the maybe list :) And I'm with you on keeping out carbon spars and foils. I'm guessing if anyone has has up graded then chances are they still have their woods foils and tin sticks. So it won't be a complete mission for them them to swop back to do a 4 plank event.
Here's my email address if want to talk sorting out events smiliethings@lycos.com
Better buy a 4 planker as well then Mrs C will not be happy with me.
Sorted :) Ely sailing club has given us the ok for an 4 planker event in 2014 and a possible date. The only thing is with a tight calender and getting let down this year they would like to run a four planker along side a normal 12 opening meeting. I'm also wondering about inviting the vintage 12's along as well.
What do you all think? Are you ok with this? And would the option of separate starts for different Categories of 12 be a good one.
As a side note I'm also wondering about running 5 45 minute races in instead of the normal 3 hour long type races.
What do you think? Will this be to much?
Short races are a good idea but not sure if running vintage and 4 plank together would work for those with both to choose from. Any other thoughts from my vintage pals? Sorry to hear you were let down this year I would try and support probably with my vintage if its an option as I currently have not got a 4 planker in the fleet all depends on the date and other comitments of course.
Running an combined event for all categories of 12 is tricky. It's a good very of getting a good attendance for the opening but there seams to a lot people who have a fleet of 12's to choose from. So it runs the risk of diluting what we a trying to achive with a series of 4 planker. All depends how many people of got a fleet of 12's to choose from I 'spose.
Let's cut to the chase:
1. How many peeps have got four plankers (or can borrow one)?
2. How many of those would attend a three event open meeting series? I will, with Cheshire Cat N2750.
3. Trent Valley is happy to host a 4 Plank open meeting (one Sunday of our choice, three races 14:00, 15:00 and 17:00 separate start with Club racing) if we go with Ely and Olton Mere can we agree on a three meeting series, all three results to count (or 2 of 3)?
RSVP! Px 8)
there will be at least 2 or 3 from olton who would be able to make it
also series is a good idea, but personally as I work a lot and have late calls etc if it was 3 to count and I had to work one of the dates there would in sense be no point of entering the last event or so on , maybe 2 out of 3 unless you take all 9 or 15 races (if there are 3 or 5 races at each club) as if you were doing club race series and do half plus one scoring system.( probly complicated and a stupid idea but I thought I would put it out there
tom white (2765, nearly 3533)
Two of three to count? I'm happy with that!
Just awaiting dates from TVSC and Olton Mere and we are ready to rock.....!
Px:K)
This ties in with my post today. Am looking at getting a pipe dream, bouncer or legal around August this year and would love to do some racing in 2015. As am in the South East both Ely and Oulton are possibilities for me. Even early strongholds of the class like Earlswood and Midland. Will probably join Ardleigh another old twelve club and if I do would love to promote the class there again
Notice of Race for round 1 at Ely Sailing Club http://www.national12.org/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.cgi?m-1402155882/ 8)
Anybody selling a street legal or pipedream in good condition in the south east or does anybody know of any sitting around and never sailed?
A little way outside the southeast but Dodeca http://www.national12.org/boats/index.php?action=view&value=3059 looks well sorted and might worth the extra miles to get a boat which looks ready to go. http://www.national12.org/adverts/detail.php?id=1065
There also a Paper Dart in Lowerstoft on Apollo Duck http://sailingdinghies.apolloduck.co.uk/display.phtml?aid=358957
Looked at photos of Dodeca and the two floor panels look really dodgy could be just varnish but a long way to go if not. Paper Dart is too old a design for me tbh. Love the wider classics. Bouncers, pipedream street legal poss windfall, tiger
Her history says Dodeca has had new decks, gunwhales and a few hull repairs. Also judging by the 2012 set of ebay photo's she has got some newish sails. You can alway ask to see if the currnet owner minds taking a few photos of the areas you are worried about. (gotta love digital technology)
Quote from: 29Looked at photos of Dodeca and the two floor panels look really dodgy could be just varnish but a long way to go if not.
That's always the risk with buying boats. Once in a while you drive a long way to see a lemon.
Also I noticed Bouncer was on Ebay a couple weeks ago.
Yeah know what you mean Bouncer is one of my fav 12 designs. Does anyone know how many Bouncer's are out there still sailing?
believe it or now Bouncer is still on Ebay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/National-12-Dinghy-Bouncer-Famous-boat-and-Burton-Cup-Winner-/111368929762?pt=UK_Sporting_Goods_Sailing_Boats_ET&hash=item19ee1b01e2
Shame Jo took out the Daggerboard
Yep, no daggerboard and £2500...... Gulp
yeah that is a whole heap of cash. It's been on the market for a while now I'recon he might take a lower other ;)
And wouldn't be eligible for vintage four plank events. :-(
Unless I'm missed something Bouncer is still ok for 4 plank events it she has still got normal foils.
Maybe but not in the spirit of things. Double bottom boats were not even eligible for Admirals cup at one point and it has been majorly modified at the back end by Jo back in 2009. Don't want a situation like the Merlin Rockets where it's become almost an arms race
Greetings.
I don't think it's likely that we will have an arms race with the four plankers; it's only a mini-series at three inland restricted water venues where double bottoms, foiled rudders and wiggley centreboards will hardly generate a massive advantage. The whole purpose is to winkle out some of the 200+ cheap and cheerful four plank boats for some fun sailing.
I hope/intend to be there (my first sailing this year) in N2750 Cheshire Cat - I still have no takers for the other CC in my barn.
Px 8)