National 12

General Boards => General National 12 chat => Topic started by: Jimbo41 on 04 Oct 2006, 12:32

Title: Weight changes?????
Post by: Jimbo41 on 04 Oct 2006, 12:32
Hi peeps!

Rumours abound about a possible further decrease in Minimum weight rule.

 I know I'm not "down to weight"  myself but am personally a little bit worried   :-/ 'cos I want to stay with wood - It'll go "boing" but won't crack like an eggshell and repairs are relatively easy to do oneself without having to inhale too much nasty gubbins. No offense Mike & Co.  ;)

Can anyone confirm/deny what's in the offing?

Jim (N3130 - Nuttyshell, Wood is Good)

Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: John Meadowcroft on 04 Oct 2006, 01:27
a rumour - i had not heard......

it is a little bit like getting rid of the leader of the labour party.  all you need is 25 (or a similar number) of people to support your resolution and you can call for an EGM.

at an EGM there would be a vote, and to change the Class rules, the meeting would have to be both quorate (about 25 members, see the constitution of the Class in the handbook) and the resolution would need to be past by 75% of the voters.

Don't know what messages are getting to Germany, but was not a rumour to be heard at either Salcombe, Porthpean, Starcross, Henley, or the recent N12 weddings that I have been to.....  unless I am not as well connected as I think I am....

meds (overweight)
N2503 (overweight) N3473 (lots of lead)

Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: Jimbo41 on 04 Oct 2006, 01:57
Thanks for the info. meds!

I was also present at Porthpean.

The rumours appear to have come from a survey conducted at around that time on this discussion board....

I was not looking forward to having to loose 20 Kg personally.....   :o

I can't take it off the hull  :'(

Jim N3130
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: Mikey C on 04 Oct 2006, 04:39
Thats a shame.
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: Jimbo42 on 04 Oct 2006, 05:02
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: rick perkins on 04 Oct 2006, 06:51
As a newbie the weight system looks odd to me ...

Why not set a new weight - say 82kgs and include everything in it sails, boom, rudder the lot.

That way the all up weight would perhaps come down a wisker and people with older boats would have more variables to exploit to "make the weight" and it would be a much simpler rule.

I suspect there should be no moves that obsolete any boats.

In the past the weight has been reduced - how wes the issue managed then?

Rick
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: davidg (Guest) on 04 Oct 2006, 07:18
The weight argument has gone on for years.

I think that it was Uffa Fox who said that the only useful weight is in steam rollers.

The reallity is that most of the d/b boats and a few of the AC boats have the scope to remove probably 5kg by taking out correctors, possibly a bit more.

However since the Torquay Burton the mood of the class has been that it is more important to consolidate than to make older boats less competitive.

The dilemma is do we make the class more exciting for experienced D/B sailors at the expense of making the class more difficult for less experienced.  Most of the often suggested ways of improving the package present the same paradox.

I am actually coming round to the opinion that a big downwind sail should have been adopted a long time ago!  That is one man's opinion and not that of the class.

Cheers,

David
N3461
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: rick perkins on 04 Oct 2006, 08:02
My gut feel is that knocking 5kgs off the weight of the boat would make little difference so why bother at the expense of making some boats "uncompetitive".

At the current weight the N12 is a light boat compared to others ... in fact is the N12 the lightest 2 person boat?

Rick

Edit: This site lists the classes; seems we are the lightest bar the Cherub. The Firefly is 74kgs but I guess that is without the mast. Seems our boat is light enough ... why mess and upset some people?

The Tasar seems the exception and the figure for the RS200 is a lot lower than the boats I owned.

http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/dinghydatabase.php3
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: foaminatthedeck (Guest) on 04 Oct 2006, 08:26
My feeling would be that if the weight was to be reduced then other more dramatic changes sould be introduced, spinnakers, racks, fully batterened sails, wing masts etc.
There on way that I'd change my street legal that dramaticaly but it would an incentive to build something new and radical.
The Cherubs are 50kg(?) and many of there boats are homebuilt to some extent.
Idealy I quite like to sail something like a 12ft B14.
I know the vast majority will disagree, just my point of view.
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: Jimbo42 on 04 Oct 2006, 08:50
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: rick perkins on 04 Oct 2006, 10:35
Seems to me the current position achieves a good balance between giving the new builds some challenge but embraces the existing boats.

If it anint broke don't fix it ...

Rick

Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: Tim L (Guest) on 04 Oct 2006, 11:04
I think the class loses a lot of people after their first season or two as the boat handling is quite challenging with the 12 and they never really get to grips with it (at least this seems to have been the case with the starcross fleet).  I think reducing the weight would risk exacerbating this by making the boat twitchier.

However on the other side the class can't be held back on the account of boats that don't take any part in the events and the AC turnouts at opens/nationals are getting smaller with a lot of people having traded up and most other AC boats only being club sailed.  

Related to the above about boat handling is that a lot of AC (and some DB...) owners perhaps would do better to worry less about the weight and more about their boat-handling as few ACs are sailed in such a way that 10kg either way would make much odds anyway...
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: rick perkins on 05 Oct 2006, 07:58
How would reducing the weight (say 5kgs) benefit the class and/or the owners?
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: Antony (Guest) on 05 Oct 2006, 08:28
I know nothing about these rumours and have no intention of leading the class through any further rule changes.  

Antony
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: rick perkins on 05 Oct 2006, 08:36
There we have it - now lets think about somthing else ...
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: Pedantic (Guest) on 05 Oct 2006, 11:14
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: Antony (Guest) on 05 Oct 2006, 12:21
Pedantic,
I would not change my words having read yours.  I am, obviously, prepared to reveal my identity.  

If enough people want to do the formal thing then they can find themselves a new Chairman too........

Antony
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: Jimbo42 on 05 Oct 2006, 02:47
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: Terry (Guest) on 11 Oct 2006, 09:24
When the current boat 3495 was new we sailed it without the 20K of correctors.
More fun
Faster, planed earlier, ask Chris Bishop
easier to sail.
Anyone wants to try it they can borrow my boat and take the lead out. Give it a go.
Development or restricted class?
Terry
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: simon ballantine on 12 Oct 2006, 07:45
I'm not seriously suggesting any contentious rule changes but, as an idea to think about, what would be the implications be of freeing-up the weight restrictions for AC boats only.   It will make the old boats slightly more competitive at zero cost and might lead to some re-kindling of interest or innovation in the back half of the fleet.
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: Jimbo42 on 12 Oct 2006, 08:20
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: rick perkins on 12 Oct 2006, 08:39
Seems to me the objective so be to drive participation of the existing boats and encourage new builds.

Would a weight drop support this - I think not ...

Rick
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: barry3364 on 12 Oct 2006, 09:05
But I think it is a suggestion along the right lines of whether different less restrictive rules could apply to ACs.

I don't know - allow more sail? more sails!?

Some Opens done on N12 handicap?

AC weight hull only, DBs everything counts?

Not sure I would want to chop wood out of our boat.

Barry

(not been in the 12 for a while - been in plastic stuff - which has been good - but picked up the 12 tonight  for the weekend away and it just looks so good)
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: Mikey C on 12 Oct 2006, 10:14
I dont understand the obsession over keeping old boats competitive. Even one designs have a racing lifespan...
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: mack on 13 Oct 2006, 08:23
Hi everyone,

Just had to reply to this! I am new to the class, I have a boat where the sails were measured in 1979 but the boat was not. I have spent the last two months preparing her to sail and now am waiting for the courage to risk her on the water.

I joined the class after much thought and dropping in on various websites because I really liked the idea of a class with history, an active membership who on this forum at least are passionate about their boats and INCLUSIVE. It is fantastic that people like Tom & Liz are doing great things in the latest boats but it is also great reading about Jimbo and his passion for Nuttyshell and all the others!

Rick has joined the class and provided some really good publicity because of his involvement in other classes too and the response on Y&Y was brilliant.

There is a place for the AC boats like mine and the vintage boats too, not all will be competitive but each has their place in this fantastic class which as a development class has nothing to lose by also enabling development in the older boats for those who want it. In particular it is great that so many entrys to the events are by, parent & child, husband & wife etc. I have not even been on the water yet but am inspired by the fact that one day my son and I can sail our old boat in the same event as Tom & Liz, Graeme & Zoe et al. I hope that he will aspire to then sail a modern 12 with his own crew rather than jump to a one design.

I definately like Barrys idea of perhaps less restrictive rules for older boats because I am really worried about how to have mine measured!!!

Sorry to ramble on.

Mack (2966 - proud to be wood)
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: EmmaW on 13 Oct 2006, 08:46
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: JimC (Guest) on 13 Oct 2006, 09:03
[quote by=mack link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool,m=1159961563,s=24 date=1160724202]...class which as a development class has nothing to lose by also enabling development in the older boats...[/quote]

From an outside perspective I don't think your class rules do anything to prevent development on older boats. There's a common perception that changing rules = development.  I submit that its the exact opposite. Development is the process of improving boats within a common rule set. Changing the rule set is to halt all development and start from scratch again.

There may be times in a class life where its appropriate to do that - change the rules and start a new development cycle - but don't call it development 'cause it ain't!

Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: Kevin on 13 Oct 2006, 09:09
I am all in favour of derestricting the weight for AC boats but leaving double bottom boats "heavy". It would save me from spending a load of money buying a new boat as I could dump the lead, remove a load of the wood from N3373 which would make her at least competitive with the modern boats and probably leave them standing even though the hull shape is fundamentally not as fast as the current designs. There would not be any possibility of more than two others doing this with the same benefits as only two additional boats were built in the same way and they are both owned by people whose ideas take a few years to come to fruition.

It would of course mean the value of these boats on the 2nd hand market would escalate, all development cease, the wishes of the majority (expressed at all the recent AGMs) for a period of stability swept aside and more people becoming disillusioned.

On the other hand, people could just resign themselves to the fact that even in one-design classes older boats are not as competitive as new ones and unless they are either lucky enough for money to be no object or willing to make sacrifices elsewhere, they are not going to be competing with T&L or G&Z but should just enjoy sailing a boat that beats all others for handling on the water, friendliness off it and allows an enormous amount of freedom to fit out however appeals most to each individual.

Kevin
N3491 - still for sale at a modest price
N3373 - NOT for sale!!!
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: EmmaW on 13 Oct 2006, 09:16
My point was nothing to do with weight-changes - to be honest this doesn't effect me as I am not doing a whole lot of sailing at the moment, so I didn't want to put my opinion across on that one.

My point was that the class should not be asking Antony alone what his opinions are, as his are no more or less valid than anybody else's.

If the majority opinion is that a rule should not be changed, fair enough. But this should be explained in terms of a majority decision, not shown on this website to be a decision made by the chairman and the chairman alone.

Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: Jon_P on 13 Oct 2006, 09:28
For me there is absolutely no point trying to make a ford fiesta go as fast as a golf gti, or what you are suggesting about cutting off the roof to reduce the weight!

Accept they are not going to be as competitive, otherwise you wouldn;t have bought one, appreciate the fact that your wooden boat looks sexier than their new one, smile while walking down the slipway, laugh on the way back up, have a beer in clubhouse and think about buying a new one!

Don;t try and make them the same, they are not!! and I wouldn't want my boat to have bits cut out of it just to try and keep up with someone that wants to buy a new one. Part of whats great about the 12 is the fact you can trade in when/IF you fancy something quicker.  I think the development should be in the new boats where people want and are willing to pay for it.

Jon
3211


p.s. I think we should run a boat of the year competition!  send in photos ofyour boat and see who's got the sexiest!
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: a (Guest) on 13 Oct 2006, 09:33
[quote by=mack link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool,m=1159961563,s=24 date=1160724202]Hi everyone,

Just had to reply to this! I am new to the class, I have a boat where the sails were measured in 1979 but the boat was not. I have spent the last two months preparing her to sail and now am waiting for the courage to risk her on the water.

Mack

Have you checked with Kevan Bloor to see if your boat was measured?  It may have been once, in which case he can issue a new certificate, no tape measure required.
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: Jimbo41 on 13 Oct 2006, 09:38
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: Mikey C on 13 Oct 2006, 09:58
While I agree with Jim's sentiments, that only works if you havent boxed your boats into a corner with the rules.
In the 12s there are lots of db boats, all rigged practically identically and only one person in the fleet actually trying something different and most of the stuff he tried has been banned since. Just make the class a OD and get it over with and stop attracting people with the development badge because it is misleading.

Jon_P - spot on. Apart from the bit about your wooden boat being sexier than carbon - there is nothing cooler than shiny black weave! :D

Antonys hesitancy may have been caused by a poorly managed weight redection last time around where it, combined with many other factors miffed a lot of people off. What cant be done is the same as last time and leave any weight reduction too long and have too big a hit all at once. baby steps, people can keep up.

The 12 should be the lightest boat of its type for the materials that go into it and the associated price tag. It is barely lighter than the Tasar which is a bigger boat...




Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: Jimbo41 on 13 Oct 2006, 10:14
[quote by=Mikey_C link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool,m=1159961563,s=32 date=1160729904] "only one person in the fleet actually trying something different and most of the stuff he tried has been banned since".

Who is he?


"Just make the class a OD and get it over with and stop attracting people with the development badge because it is misleading."

 Please don't !

"Jon_P - spot on. Apart from the bit about your wooden boat being sexier than carbon - there is nothing cooler than shiny black weave! :D"  

Don't forget the stocking tops!!!!!

"The 12 should be the lightest boat of its type for the materials that go into it and the associated price tag"

Agreed. But you can build a wooden 12 that's down to weight and doesn't cost the earth. Ask Dare Barry (My Guru  ;D ;D ;D). We don't need space technology (- hence the current cost of carbon) to build a fast boat. You can also use a different rig even on a wooden boat.

Let's keep the debate light and friendly, after all we all want the best for the class - don't we?

Jim N3130 (Wood's right!)





Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: MarkSimpson on 13 Oct 2006, 03:29
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: Mikey C on 13 Oct 2006, 04:58
Jimbo, that man is Gavin Willis.

The OD comment was OTT. I am somewhat frustrated by the classes insistance that we need to keep old boats competitive as it is mutually exclusive to moving forwards. We embrace the technology and the price tag, but are afraid of letting the boats actually get any faster. Dare has moved with the times and is making good boats in wood/foam carbon, and doing it cheaply, but foam/epoxy/glass could be almost as cheap if anyone was that way inclined, but unfortunately after a brief spate, homebuilding has dried up again.
There is nothing stopping anyone taking their wooden boat and redecking it/flooring it to stiffen it up if they think the hull shape is up to it.

Anyway, will try and keep in good humour in the future.

Mike C
Moth GBR4083 - N12 3031
Wood, good for the ark, burning and furniture

Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: THG on 13 Oct 2006, 05:01
Agreed - the ACs are competitive and can have enjoyable racing maybe slightly down the fleet - however even IF I had the best set up boat there is I doubt I would see that dramatic a change in performance.  I think we just need to get MORE ACs out sailing so they feel they get good racing wherever they are in the fleet.  Be realistic if you want to be at the front of the fleet in (almost) any Class you would need to get a newish boat / kit.  At least we can change ours a bit to try to keep up - but I have no good way of taking out my 10kg excess - but I think practise and learning how to sail boat faster would make more off an impact in short term.

How to we encourage those hundreds of ACs which are still capable of being sailed well and overwhelm the DBs just on numbers alone??  DBs have about 100 or so built / converted.

Ideally it would be nice to be able to reduce the weight of all the boats and make them quicker etc but does it really matter vs having good sailing in a Classy little boat.

Kean

Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: Alex D on 13 Oct 2006, 07:55
As we are all having a go, my view is ..

There are the advantages and disadvantages of having less mass in the boat. For me the distribution is more important than the limit. The distribution of any mass changes the centre of gravity but also the centre of gyration of the boat. This will impact on the twichiness of the boat. The lighter the boat (with correctors) the more control you have over both these characteristics. With the mass well distributed over the hull you get a different feel. This is a big plus for well designed light boats at present.

In light winds you need to get all that mass moving at speed. Acceleration would be better with less mass. A level playing field here is important, so by decreasing the limit you make boats that can't go on a diet less competitive.

Using a Formula one analogy, set an envelope with the rules (this has been done) and delevlop to the limit of these criteria. Only change them if you have reached stagnation or are going down a path you don't like.

I'd still expect the crews in newer boats to be toward the front through a combination of skill, enthusiasm and investment of time and money in their chosen sport.

My plan is to understand how to get the best out of the boat I have and then get the best boat I can afford.

I'm also looking for a winter crew. they must be 7'2" and have a centre of gravity above their shoulders for maximum hiking ability, but I'll start a new thread for that one. :)
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: Jimbo42 on 13 Oct 2006, 08:09
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: philipcosson on 13 Oct 2006, 09:32
it is true - you can build a wooden boat down to weight at 78kg - but some of the carbon boats need 20kg of correctors to get to 78kg.

If we went to, say. 60kg all up wieght - would carbon be the only build material possible?

Philip

N3253 (92kg all up!)
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: tedcordall on 14 Oct 2006, 03:31
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: RogerBrisley on 15 Oct 2006, 12:23
As Mark Simpson says there are several AC boats who are very quick (in the north and possibly else where)

on the whole this success is probably due to the committment that the helm and crew give to their sailing,  not only in terms of keeping the boats up to date with carbon sticks and possibly foils,  decent sails and judicious other weight saving tactics,  but mainly effort and practice, learning from experience.  Granted for equal ability the fattest wallet will win,  but more often than not it is sheer ability of a team that producs the result not the boat.  

A regular crew or access to an experienced 12 crew prepared to match the helms efforts or better is likely to have far more impact on performance than any savings in weight in most conditions.

Let them have their lighter boats,  and leave us ac boats to aim high in the knowledge that it is mainly our own skills that will keep us competitive,  not the latest gismo or weight reduction ( though if any body wants to sell me a carbon stick for the peice of a Pizza I won't stop them!)

The sooner AC sailors grasp this committment thing and come out to play more the sooner we AC Boats will (?)dominate (glass likely to be half full) open events (more of us than them)

Roger

3334 (plastic AC getting out more)
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: Tim on 15 Oct 2006, 05:35
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: Interested (Guest) on 16 Oct 2006, 10:05
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: rick perkins on 16 Oct 2006, 10:49
Seems to me that some people are proposing that dropping the weight would stimulate development & new builds ... which seems to me perhaps not the case.

I am sure the current rule set offers plenty of scope for development but as for new builds I suspect there are less of these because of the cost and the difficulty of home build.

When you could knock a boat up from a few bits of ply in your garage many would be tempted to experiment ... but now doing the same from carbon with all the costs of a mould it is less likely.

...so now onto a new thread about home building? ....

Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: Jimbo41 on 16 Oct 2006, 01:46
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: Mikey C on 16 Oct 2006, 06:53
Gavin's flaps and I presume hollow bow area got banned during the Tom Edom catamaran panic attack. He couldn't do them again on a new boat, but as he was measured beforehand can keep them on that one. The hollows rule change went over and above the call of duty.

The hull shape is not where development has stifled. Weight is an easy one to pick on as it doesnt mean much change to the competitive boats but as soon as you start talking about masts and sails everyone starts running crazy that people wont be able to keep up with a cash war... Hulls are far more expensive and less modular than rigs - cant replace bits at a time. Maybe I should be grumbling about that instead!



Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: Jimbo42 on 16 Oct 2006, 07:42
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: philipcosson on 16 Oct 2006, 08:17
someone tell us the story about tom edom and catamarans please.

Philip
N3253
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: philipcosson on 16 Oct 2006, 08:19
why did the canting rig on radical edward not gain acceptance Mike? was it the extra weight, increased windage, or something else?

Philip
N3253
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: John Meadowcroft on 16 Oct 2006, 10:14
Mike,
 
I think that you are wrong.  I do not believe that any aspect of Gavin's original design is no longer allowed following a design change.  My understanding of the 'Tom Edom catamaran situation' was that it did not apply to any boat built at that time.  However, Tim Knight's sail reinforcement concept was banned by a rule change.  

With respect to your comment about Gavin's boat, please can you explain in more detail.  I think that the rule change that you are referring to is the Topsides rule (5.3 in the old rules, 5.2 in the current version.)  My reading of the rule is that it refers to skin.  The whole point about Gavin's boat was that it had no skin, therefore no hollow could be measured as to have a hollow first requires you to have skin.  So what am I missing that outlawed Gavin's boat?

Philip - the Catamaran was something that was believed to be possible upon review of the wording of the rule change that removed the requirement to have a keel and bilge keels.  The design that complied with the rewritten rule was catamaran like.

John.
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: Mikey C on 16 Oct 2006, 10:31
In the absence of hull there is no hollow. Fair enough, I can understand that, but the previous wording of the hollows rule allowed transverse hollows in the hull shape in the front (metre maybe, cant remember) of the hull. This would allow the hull flaps that Gavin has in his current configuration. That rule got wiped away comepletely where there were simpler solutions that Tom himself suggested.
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: janeysailor12 on 19 Oct 2006, 01:40
Jimbo....WHY have you bought Passion Pudding???  Have you not got your head around the Tigress yet??  or are you going to sail with one boat on each foot  :D

Janey

P.S. I've bought a B14.......and the Hull's only 65 Kilos HA HA!!
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: Antony (Guest) on 19 Oct 2006, 03:06
Janey,
To compare you have to weight the racks, we have very wide boats for the same reason, and arguably the mast.  I  hsd two B14s and was surprised how heavy they felt.  They are great boats, do not get me wrong we had fun, but they are not as refined as a 12.  The most interesting thing is that the sensation of speed is nothing like that of a 12 going half as fast.  You obviously know this but the key to the 12 is that although they are not that fast they are so sensitive that they feel fast, a bit like a go-kart vs sitting in a very fast hatchback.

Enjoy it, but never sell the 12.

Antony
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: Jimbo41 on 19 Oct 2006, 03:13
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: janeysailor12 on 20 Oct 2006, 01:34
No Jimbo the reason I've bought The B14 is I fancy a challenge, and I'm getting a bit bored with only the Dangly pole and the Jib.  Mind you I may have shot myself in the preverbial foot here.  On the B14 I have to do the Spinnaker (all 50 square meters of it!!) the Outhaul, the cunningham, the kicker, as well as the Jib!!  So no excuse for getting bored then!  

Janey
Title: Re: Weight changes?????
Post by: Jimbo42 on 20 Oct 2006, 04:01