I guess 13.1 means GPSs are not permitted but does anyone care?
If I use a GPS on my boat at Bristol am I likley to get protested or would there be an interest in the data gathered?
I'd say use it, as long as you dont look at it during the race... I put mine face down under the tiller so I cant see it!
I disagree with Mike. If the rules say you can't race with a GPS then they're the rules wherever you put it.
Fran 3431
Agree with Fran.
Yes use GPS for coaching days, but racing - definately no.
If they have a VMG function then they are an aid to performance, hence we do not allow them. Obviously in yachts they are allowed and used for this purpose so pretty easy to see both sides of the argument.
One to dicsuss again at some point at an AGM I guess, but personally I am pretty happy with the existing rules. The class wrote the current rule expressly to allow the Tactic without permitting any VMG calculator (as i recall).
Antony
A tactic costs as much as some of the AC boats you can buy!
Maybe just let the ACers have the GPS to help our VMGs...
Kean
[quote by=John_Murrell link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1175205580,s=4 date=1175255930]Agree with Fran.
Yes use GPS for coaching days, but racing - definately no.
[/quote]
Why?
Dinghy sailing is a dynamic sport and I don't believe any benefit could be achieved through sailing a dinghy off instruments so why not have one to gather data that could benefit post racing analysis & coaching?
If the rules say you can't race with a GPS then they're the rules wherever you put it.
Fran 3431
Absolutely Fran. As Kean says they cost as much as some AC boats so why allow cheque book sailing? Surely its all about helm and crew and as far as possible technical change should still allow the best helm and creww to win?
Roger
3334
I think this is probably an issue that won't go away as recent wrist mounted GPS are becoming very small and accurate. I use one for running and this gives pace/speed/distance lap times etc. I ran a half marathon at the weekend and by the number of people using them, Garmin have sold a lot of these. The cost has been dropping.
Hovever to do the VMG thing you need to know which waypoint you are heading for so this is really only practical in training unless you locate all the marks before or during the race.
I still probably wouldn't use one other than for boat tuning as reacting to changes in wind & weather misses the point of trying to predict them.
Get real guys, many classes have allowed GPS recievers to be carried to get interesting data, even though they are specifically not allowed to be used during racing. This allows you to settle arguments about speed etc, and enter the speed comp. on Y&Y. You just make sure they are in a sealed opaque plastic bag, so no data can be read during the race. Even the most conservative one designs have thought this to be "interesting" and done it.
Would be interesting to see the tracking data too, to see shift patterns at different venues, but perhaps thats a step too far for a developement class!
Andy
Its not like they are expensive anyway, I'm pretty sure mine cost a lot less than a new jib, and is far more interesting!
The velocitec ones dont do pure VMG as such upwind although they claim they do, as they work back from your tacking angles/position. They don't know where your windward/leeward mark is. The Garmins will do it if you sail off and waypoint your marks before a race.
This is by far and away the cheapest diagnostic tool we can possibly have, and if you want to keep them banned, you'd better get on and ban two boat tuning as well, as we can't all afford to do that. Racing is usually the only opportunity to actually compare your speed and tactics against others and the ability to look back at it would be invaluable.
Also, post race coaching as done at the weekend could be made extremely interesting by overlaying the track logs from anyone with a device, then we can see where the leaders made their gains and the losers made losses. I'm just wondering if anyone knows just how easy this is to do.
[quote by=Mikey_C link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1175205580,s=13 date=1175547065]
Also, post race coaching as done at the weekend could be made extremely interesting by overlaying the track logs from anyone with a device, then we can see where the leaders made their gains and the losers made losses. I'm just wondering if anyone knows just how easy this is to do.[/quote]
I am already doing this with the Musto Skiff's I will post a link soon with a java demo ...
GPS action replay?
Yep
Have a look at this link - this shows how you can use the data for post race analysis & coaching.
Full replay using the data from the Velocitek unit.
http://www.mustoskiff.com/reports-and-news/2007/replays.htm
[quote by=James_Taylor link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1175205580,s=18 date=1175694479]
What is the differnce please tell me?
James
N3402
N3304 (Up for Sail)[/quote]
er ... keelboats are heavy & their motion is damped by the weight and they respond slowly to trim changes.; the same is not true of any dinghy.
I don't think a GPS is an expensive bit of kit available only to the rich; it's cheap.
If you don't log actual races you won't be able to use the info that is gained in a coaching situation.
Did you actually look at the demo?
I just think things should be kept affordable thats all for everyone regardless of their disposable income and also to keep the youngsters in sailing without fleecing the parents too much and a GPS is another expensive item.
Emma
N3402
N3304
[quote by=Emma_Gager link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1175205580,s=22 date=1175701524]I just think things should be kept affordable thats all for everyone regardless of their disposable income and also to keep the youngsters in sailing without fleecing the parents too much and a GPS is another expensive item.
Emma
N3402
N3304
[/quote]
So a carbon mast & boom and a full carbon boat are budget choices ...
There are many very affordabe old boats which means that 12 sailing can be very cheap but I don't see affordability having any impact on a the average double bottomed boat owner ... as I said you don't have to buy a GPS just like you don't have to buy a carbon mast or new sails.
12 sailing can be as expensive or as cheap as you choose to make it ...
This is just the idea one class is going to pick up and run with, and they will get more owners as a result. Imagine Burton week training, with several boats with track logs, including the champ favourites. Race winner going through the decisions they made, what a fantastic way to promote the class, and help the fleet standard as a whole.
My wife has just started sailing in the last two years, and the whole concept about wind shifts and on the water decision aking is the hardest thing to tech and learn. I expect we will see it accross all the youth fleets in the next few years, including regattas, as data recorders to help with training.
I dont know how much they cost, but if similar to an electric compass, I know which i would rather have! and learn more from.
I cant see how one of these could help you in a race, especially if you made it a rule that they could only be used to record data, and not be seen.
Is it about time that the N12 started to look forward again, now the 70th year has finished?
Innovations like this is one of the reasons the Musto Skiff is winning the battle with the 700, I just hope Rick has managed to turn enough heads with his demonstration to get a dispensation for a few events, hopefully for a few boats. I may then be able to persuade my wife that a 12 is a better way to go than a 200 after we have sold the coffin she learnt in.
Andy
Anyone need an ENT?
Ah ... a man with vision.
We have already altered the NOR for the Musto Skiff Worlds and will be running debriefs after the racing looking at the tracks of a range of boats from each race.
This technology is coming to our sport; you can either resist it or embrace it ...
Interesting debate. Having watched the replay of Rick's racing it is clear that he had a very large lead which he then lost but hung on for ultimate victory. Not sure that it tells anyone who was not involved in the sailing much at all - a great training aid for those on the water maybe.
GPS instrumentation is something that is clearly currently banned and I understand those who therefore do not want to see it today when racing, and I agree with them.
Looking forward it may well be that there is a trend towards this sort of thing becoming the norm in the sport and it might be a good idea to consider allowing the relaxation of our rules for a period to see how and where this technology develops. I dont see it as particularly dangerous technology. Lots of data that will be particularly difficult to interpret. That said I am able to sail upwind on big courses today with my eyes glued to an electronic compass so I am sure that if I could get a display that gave me sensibly damped VMG data I might spend some time looking at that too! It could also be the thin end of the wedge as well as GPS instrumentation improves and more processing ability is put into smaller and smaller units.
If this has got real legs and you want to move it on please get something together for the AGM at Brixham. All submissions need to be sent to the Class secretary at least six weeks before Burton Cup day. This is essentially the middle of June. This is the only forum to make a change.
Where this sort of thing has been used with success in the past is with Olympic etc events where the organising authority has required competing boats (some and not all) to carry on board provided instrumentation which has then broadcast the output so that it can be viewed in real time. It has tended to be more popular with the armchair viewers than the competitors and I understand that some units have been known to be accidentally switched off!
I think that I would support a relaxation of such rules for a season provided that the use of GPS was prohibited from Burton Week. Quite frankly I do not believe that such rules are easily enforceable outside of the Burton Week environment.
Thats all for now, I better go and look for a job!
John
If the proposal was to allow GPS to record data while racing but not to allow that data to be used or viewed in real time then, as there is no advantage gained while racing, why would people object.
TC (N3459)
i personally cant see myself needing one but i dont see why people shouldnt be allowed to use them
how exactly could they improve your performance whilst on the water. i can oly see them being useful in a 'come ashore and check data' type scenario
Steve Clark, the American Catamaran (Cogito the C Class) and IC Sailor has gone on record as saying that GPS VMG without true wind data is at best very misleading. Apparently he found when working up Cogito that settiing up VMG to the leeward and windward mark or even VMG to three miles upwind was useless due to the amount of variation that apparent wind and all the rest of it puts in the mix.
On the other hand there's considerable potential for explaining how your day went to your mates... See this by 12 (footer) sailor EdB posted on Sailing Anarchy...
(http://www.devboats.co.uk/Race_part_1.jpg)
(http://www.devboats.co.uk/Race_part_2.jpg)
I wouldnt want to see GPS readouts visible on boats I sailed against, but I like the idea of capturing the data for playback later. Prove that the only reason fred got ahead was that atrociously jammy shift on the last beat, that sort of thing...
It appears if we wish to make this change to accomodate GPS then we need 11 others who think the same to discuss it at the AGM.
If you'd like to see GPSs permitted then please drop me an email on rick@force5marketing.co.uk
PS: How do you make email addresses clickable?
I agree with Rick, let's get real and allow technology on board. We use them while yachting and they are a great aid on big courses on the Solent. Have to say it will be a complete waste of time at Spinnaker, as is the tactic, but it sure as hell will help wind up those lasers and solos!
Email me then ... seems you need 12 people ...
Rick, this seems to work <a href="mailto:philipj.cosson@ntlworld.com">mail me</a> use Spam-me-not to encode the email first if you want to avoid spam.
Philip
None of the detractors have so far put forward a case for how a GPS will improve their (or any one elses) performance during a race.
Yes, GPS or VMG instuments are used on yachts but the most succesful helmsmen (including ex 505 world champions) I have sailed with rarely, if ever, use them round the cans.
Graham,
You raise a number of interesting points.
I don't think a GPS is ever going to give a dinghy a sensible measure of startline position.
The accuracy is only so good and the bouys move on the wind & tide ... so I don't think starting will be impacted.
On your wish list for GPS features I think the Velocitek unit already hits many of these ... have a look at their site.
The layline feature would be handybut I can see how we may not like those types of feature impacting decision making.
Perhaps a good starting point is to allow data collection but not viewing during a race ...
Thats the benefit of a forum to get all these issues on the table ...
Just found time to read up on the Velocitek and unfortunately I think the VMG calculation is flawed. You have to manually enter a wind direction. Now in all the places I've sailed in the last 20 years the wind has never stayed in the same place, shifts of 5 degrees are common, 10 frequent and 15+ not unknown during a race.
From the Velocitek website:
"In VMG mode the S10 combines GPS data with a user defined wind direction to calculate your upwind or downwind VMG once every second. In speedometer mode the S10 shows your current speed over ground and can also instantly recall both your maximum and best 10 second average speeds. The S10 has made some of the best sailors in the world faster and we are confident that it will work for you."
My basic trigonometry tells me that a 5 degree wind shift will lead to a 9% error in VMG. Not sure it's worth $299 dollars to get a VMG of that accuracy, it really needs to be combined with a proper wind indicator.
Time to develop our own I think, then get ISAF to change the RRS and we'll be rich . . . 8)
I think if you understand the limitations of the tool then you can make sensible use of it ...
Just to add some more fuel to the fire of this debate, which I thought I understood before Grazz confused me ...
I can see the benefit of logging GPS data for training and also for having some fun post race analysis, and with the current generation of GPS devices I see little risk in doing this. My experience leads me to believe that GPS only measurements are not accurate enough to 'tune' the boat in realtime race conditions (wind shifts will still be easier to spot with a compass), and I am not sure that even Grazz will be get anything more than a sore head from post race analysis - developing a bigger beer belly would surely be more effective.
However I have no doubt that it will not be very long before compact devices that combine GPS and INS data with some simple wind direction measurement will provide very effective VMG and hence relative performance measurements. As several people have mentioned I feel this would not be appropriate for N12s, these are seat of the pants boats.
So I am for having GPS in the boat to record data, but the rule change needs to be carefully thought out to prevent a future arms race.
Rick, How many names have you got?
John
N3443
My approach to all this is somewhat "old-mannish". Forget GPS for all the reasons given above.
My strategy would be to choose a different marker - one that works. Take Graham and Zoes' or Tom and crews' boats for examples. If you need to choose a good course, try staying with them at least some of the way. They also give more reliable data on wind shifts than any other electronic device. They have their tacktick eady and waiting so you don't even need your own. The secret is to secretly snag them with a long length of green shark line, and then you'll be up there permanently on their tail, almost effortlessly. ;D
I realise I'm going to be critisised heavily by some of you guys and girls, but seriously, my approach would be to be less concerned with knowing where I was on the water electronically and more by using simple visual techniques to check out my competition and knowing where the currents and wind were. These are easy to see at the start line since the bias is quite obvious from the way the boats are positioned. I wouldn't need anything more than my Tacktick and perhaps a hand held bearing compass. AND I prefer the beer and good company afterwards to my laptop.....
Cheers!
Jim.
[quote by=John Thornton (Guest) link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1175205580,s=40 date=1176860421]
Rick, How many names have you got?
John
N3443 [/quote]
5 ... I am only going to push this along if there seems to be support.
So far seems there is quite a bit of resitsance so I suspect it will not make it onto the agenda ...
Funning that there is such resistance given that there are other electronic aids that have been is use for some time ...
However, I know a GPSs have been used by people at previous opens and this is a breach of the rules that is unhealthy ...