National 12

General Boards => General National 12 chat => Topic started by: jon (Guest) on 22 May 2006, 12:25

Title: why the 12?
Post by: jon (Guest) on 22 May 2006, 12:25
Hi all,
I am looking for a new boat, I was tempted with the RS200 but am intrigued with the 12. I thought you guys might have some interested opinions.  I sale on a pond, how do the 12s do in handicap racing as i would probably be forced to do?

Title: Re: why the 12?
Post by: THG on 22 May 2006, 12:51
What size of pond?  I sail at a small ish gravel pit (South Cerney) - generally beat the ass'y types both on water and on h'cap (even those much faster) - maybe our fleet isn't that top!

We have one Laser guy (good) thats just started out in RS200 - seem to be keeping up on beats, off wind we go direct and often no change in the distance between us - IF they can go direct with kite on good reach they can draw ahead - overall I would say the N12 is far more suited to these types of water than the RS200 (or other Assy generally).

The Albacores & Solos at our Club seem to do best overall 'traditional classes'.

Kean
3339 (Crusader)
Title: Re: why the 12?
Post by: David Wilkins (Guest) on 22 May 2006, 01:22
Jon,

I sail on a 60 acre lake  - tend to do very well on handicap. We don't have any asymetrics on the lake as it really isn't suited to them. We do enjoy sailing past the RS200's when we race at the same time as them at one of the Salcombe open meetings where they struggle with the shifty inland type winds.

I'm sure that you would find a 12 much more responsive and interesting to sail and far better suited to your type of water. If you're not yet swayed go to the Try a 12 bit of the website and we'll arrange for that.

Cheers


David


Title: Re: why the 12?
Post by: Jimbo41 on 22 May 2006, 01:39
Jon, I can only confirm what David and Keen have said.

Where I sail it's particularly shifty being relatively close to the Alps and we also get quite a lot of cyclonic weather. I sail a Tigress although not for long, (around a year). She's 26 years old, but a super type of boat for an inland stretch of water. You don't necessarily have to have a spanking new, carbon composite double bottomed boat to have fun and leave some other smart-alecs more-or-less gobsmaked (even without a spinachmaker....)  ;D

Don't expect instant results though. The 12 is highly responsive to rig changes of outwardly minor nature and - as the latest DVD shows - is quite difficult to handle at first.

Cheers and good hunting!

Jim N3130

Title: Re: why the 12?
Post by: jon (Guest) on 22 May 2006, 02:05
Cheers for the replies both,  what is the py?
Pond is not tiny i sale my vareo with kite on it but it is far from ideal as most other boats dont have a kite so course is set up for lasers etc
I think i will sort out a sail in one.  
Talking about what type, I would definately want a wooden deck as i think they look beautiful, and the curvier shapes, but would also ideally want a grp or modern  hull for less maintenance.  Do they exist if so how much am I looking at for a club competive boat?  i am not looking at winning the nationals, just club comptetive.  thanks

Title: Re: why the 12?
Post by: Kevin on 22 May 2006, 02:05
Well, just to be different, I sail on the sea. We generally do well on handicap against the likes of people who come in the top 3 at the Finn world masters, Phantom nationals, etc and usually beat the Albacores and Lasers on the water. Against the new asymetric classes and catamarans it really does depend on the weather and the course when there is nothing anyone can do if the boat is wrong for the weather, e.g. on a tight reach in a breeze we overtake RS400's but on a broad reach they leave us standing.

As to why a 12, aside from the challenge of sailing a boat that is far more responsive and fun than the RS200 (I owned one for 2 years), we are just such a friendly bunch of people that you will miss out if you go elsewhere.

Hope that helps.
Kevin
Title: Re: why the 12?
Post by: philipcosson on 22 May 2006, 02:50
Hi Jon,

My boat is exactly as you describe - wooden decks and a GRP hull. It is a Baggy Trousers - number N3253 - there were 6 made I think. 1984 vintage. There were some crusaders made like this I believe... then there are the fully GRP design 8's

We have recently negotiated a better handicap at my club for single floor boats - which may help in handicap racing. it's 1104 (pre N3410)

Mine is not down to weight - but Phil Davids N3217 is identical hull and he has it down to weight with carbon mast and spaceframe. My dad sanded it down last winter and we put on sikkens ceetol - it looks pretty good and did not take lots of coats.

The main reason I'm here and not in the RS200 is the lack of a spinnaker. There are enough variables to consider on inland water without that.

I really wanted to learn to sail well, and I figure a responsive boat will give me more feedback. A boat that is very susceptable to fore/aft trim and rig settings will teach me whats important.

I also needed to maximise my boat for the money - when you consider the cost of an RS200 - you will see that you can get a much better second hand deal in the development class - and have enough money left over for some new sails possibly?

Hope you join the class

Philip
N3253
Title: Re: why the 12?
Post by: angus on 22 May 2006, 05:05
Title: Re: why the 12?
Post by: Roly Mo on 22 May 2006, 06:18
Where do you live/sail?  I'm sure that someone would be happy to provide a trial sail somewhere close by.

Bernard
N3447/N2938
Title: Re: why the 12?
Post by: Barry on 22 May 2006, 06:47
I'd agree with all of the above. We are new to 12's this year - with no 12 history. We sail on a small pond with a good handicap of 1104 (slower than a Wayfarer).

The N12 is much admired,  great fun and such a rewarding boat to sail - or at least will be when we get it right.

The RS200 is a good boat - even through the kite only comes up properly from one side. On a marginal planing reach the RS200 with kite up will get way - elsewhere it's seems about even.

Watch out for the Ents and Solos though!

Having just got Ratchet there are some super bargains and so much boat can be had for small money.

Barry
N3364
Title: Re: why the 12?
Post by: Jimbo42 on 22 May 2006, 08:39
Title: Re: why the 12?
Post by: bowman (Guest) on 22 May 2006, 10:31
Title: Re: why the 12?
Post by: jon (Guest) on 23 May 2006, 09:17
Buy a more competitive boat?!  
I was thinking of more like 1000-2000.  Do I get much more for my money? or is it not worth spending that  without going all out?
plus that would allow me to keep my vareo that I am now in love with!

I am based in Notts, there is a 12 at my club but dont really know the chap, will talk to him and see if he offers!!
Title: Re: why the 12?
Post by: THG on 23 May 2006, 10:26
Title: Re: why the 12?
Post by: jon (Guest) on 23 May 2006, 10:38
sorry guys, probably a stupid question but AC?
Title: Re: why the 12?
Post by: THG on 23 May 2006, 11:26
AC is Admirals Cupper - single bottom.  They don't automatically drain like the DB (double bottoms do) - a DB is more akin to an RS200 in that it will self drain.

ACs are still competitive on in land water vs the DBs - BUT if you do capsize they are harder to get the water out.

Vintage is for the older Clinker type boats.  From what you've described you may want a Crusader / Final Chapter for inlands.  Design guide may help you too.

Kean
Title: Re: why the 12?
Post by: philipcosson on 23 May 2006, 11:54
Title: Re: why the 12?
Post by: Roly Mo on 23 May 2006, 05:01
Title: Re: why the 12?
Post by: james on 23 May 2006, 06:39
Jon, are you at notts county sailing club? Ive just joined the club and bought a national 12, if you get in contact with me Id be happy to come down, take you out and let you have ago, email me on james150@gmail.com if your interested
James
Title: Re: why the 12?
Post by: Richard Pilgrim on 23 May 2006, 09:39
Hi Jon,

Don't know if you are at Notts County (where there is more than one N12) but if you want to try sailing one at Trent Valley (with probably the longest traditions of N12 inland sailing) then you can contact me and I'll put you in touch with Paul Turner our Class Rep. Email me on richard.pilgrim@ntlworld.com if you like.

Richard
N3445
Title: Re: why the 12?
Post by: jon (Guest) on 24 May 2006, 10:33
Hi again all,

You guys have been great.  I am at attenborough so probably closer to trent valley.  I would love to come have a look at northampton this weekend but we have a trip to rutland this week (weather depending!).  I might try and get along to TV as i hear you have a few boats and could look at different designs.  Still have to persuade my crew away from an RS but sure it can be done!

Do TV still sail on thursdays?

Thanks again all,
Jon
Title: Re: why the 12?
Post by: Tim L (Guest) on 24 May 2006, 11:27
Hi Jon,

AC - Admirals Cup, basically all those boats that don't have a double floor and so sail with a bit of water in the bottom (anything pre-3416 (ish)).  There are seperate prizes (and competition is fierce!) within most events for the AC but on restricted waters AC boats are on a pretty even par with the new ones.

If you've got a budget of 1-2K a good route would be to get a decent AC boat for 1K and buy a carbon mast/new sails for it with the rest.  This'll give you a boat with great performance and if you get into 12s in a big way then you only need to get an up to date hull to put under the rig.  THe most common composites tend to be Chapters and Baggys.  The Crusader/Design 8 shape is probably superior inland but you either havce to have all wood or all GRP.  As the guys have said above you may be able to influence your club to give you a PY representative of the age of the boat but to be honest most 12s from 1970s onwards can happily sail to 1093 on a small water.

Re: RS200 - I used to sail on an open water estuary, the 200s had a three minute head start and we used to pass them before the end of the first lap (first beat in light airs...).  The spinnaker's a complete red herring - an expensive extra sail for no more speed and less excitement than a 12 on a windy reach!

Tim
N3497 Shiny Disco Balls
Title: Re: why the 12?
Post by: jon (Guest) on 24 May 2006, 11:46
OK, thanks again,

I am gonna stick up for the asy boats for a sec as i own a vareo which is the most fun I've ever had in a boat by a long way although never tried a 12 :-)
The kite's may not be the most competitive on courses not designed for them and I am certainly never gonna challenge at our club even if i was the british champion, but they are great fun and on those broad reaches it's a blast.  It's not all about winning, is it?
Title: Re: why the 12?
Post by: Richard Pilgrim on 24 May 2006, 12:30
Jon

Yes, TVSC do sail on Thursday evenings - come along one night if you want a go. However, it's usually a bit frantic because we're racing and that doesn't allow much time for showing people around, so it's better to contact me (or Paul maybe) beforehand because then we can arrange not to be racing that particular evening.

Cheers,

Richard
Title: Re: why the 12?
Post by: tedcordall on 25 May 2006, 07:58
Title: Re: why the 12?
Post by: Giles_Edmondes-Preedy on 27 May 2006, 05:30