Here are some questions that I can't find the answers to on the website;
1) What is the ideal weight for each of the prevalent modern designs?
2) Is there any record of which designs/sailmakers have performed best over the last 3 years?
3) How many boats do you get at your average open meeting?
4) I assume all the top guys using carbon spars, which manufactures feature at the front of the fleet?
regards,
Rick
Just a bit more in addition to the info in the reply above - all of which is spot on:
1. There's a lot of propoaganda about weight but you'll find people winning open meetings across the whole range <17 - >23stones, though it is harder work, as the earlier reply says if you are at either end of this spectrum. Chapters reputedly carry weight better.
2. Those are the main sailmakers, but not the only ones. On the whole however, if you're new to the class, better stick with a sailmaker who knows their way around Twelve issues. As for winning designs, you'll find all of Foolish, Numinous, Bim 3, Chapter and Big Issue 1 & 2 winning open meetings and championship races at the moment. Each has a set of conditions in which they perform better than the others. Many of the older designs continue to be competitive inland.
3. Those are the only people making carbon masts. You can buy a super spar pretty much off the peg - the other two require negotiation with the makers.
MIke D
N3496
Bump ...
The previous replies seem pretty accurate to me - There really isn't enough data to give you anything much more helpful on weights for each design - Often the competency or otherwise of the helm is far more telling than the design's weight carrying ability. The winning boats are using all the brands of spars and sails noted on earlier replies and in differing combinations.
Cheers
David
3481
I am think of buying a boat but there is no way I am going to buy one unless I have some confidence that I am getting the right design for our weight.
Just saying 17-23 is OK isn't very helpful - I'd hope to be competitive but given the diversity of the designs and rigs I had hoped to find a bit of data or guidance on designs and rigs.
The starting point for joining any class is to understand the weight/equipment combinations of the top teams; are you guys trying to keep that to yourselfs?
Rick
I am probably not the right person to answer this question as I tend to hold up the other end of the fleet but I think your are maybe looking for the wrong think. The great thing about the national 12 is that you can adapt it to suit your self. There is no right answer. If you want somthing off the shelf that is going to go straight to the top you are maybe looking at the wrong class.
The best thing I can suggest is that you get round and few open meetings and see what the fst boys are sailing and you will probably find they will be only two happy to share their screts with you.
[quote by=angus link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool,m=1156107862,s=6 date=1156923325] If you want somthing off the shelf that is going to go straight to the top you are maybe looking at the wrong class.[/quote]
Are you telling me to go and find a different class? :(
All I am asking is what gear are the top guys using to help me with my choice - in other classes they usually compile a gear guide after the nationals which is often published in Y&Y ... is their one of these for the N12?
Rick
Rick,
I agree with Angus. The sailors at the National Champs last week in Porthpean were very open and willing to discuss all issues.
Another equally important issue about winning races is experience on your own stretch of water. I was talking to Paul Turner last night (who incidentally is selling N3500 Crazy Diamond - free plug for you Paul ;D ;D) about weight carrying capacity of the Big Issue 2. He surprised me by saying that it could carry weight, but what was more important to winning was strategy. He sails on rivers predominantly. So the takehome message is rather to choose a boat which suits the type of water you sail on (and crew wieght) and get your chess playing sorted out. Then you'll be up at the front in a few years. This is what I am doing.
Cheers and goood luck in your choice!
Jim N3130 (give me your boats and never accept sweets from a Plastic Fantastic)
Rick,
The gear guide is in draft form on my email system. If you email me at antonygifford@aol.com then I will be happy to send you the preview version by reply. It will probably be with Y&Y today once we have been given clarity on a few of the crew weights!
On the weight question that you raised the answer is that for any N12 there is a sweet spot between about 18 & 21 stone. By using different hull shapes and rigs this can be extended a little in both directions, for example the best 'fatter' guy in the class uses a Final Chapter with a bendy mast and fuller sails to pretty good effect. The beauty of the development class is that you can pick and mix the kit to suit you and your crew.
If you want more thoughts, or have particular boats in mind that interest you but you want to discuss, then email me and I can either respond or I will provide you with my home phone number.
Angus is wrong to suggest that there is not a winning 'off the shelf' option, as that is exactly what the P&B/Winder Foolish offers and Tom & Liz are rarely beaten in their one.
Antony
N3484 (& now Chairman of the NTOA)
No I'm not
A crew weight in excess of 21 stone has been good enough to be in the top 6 every year since 2000. I cannot remember before.... Carbon rigs have definitely helped the heavy people in my opinion. Rich Williams was nearly 21 stone this year and came second ,we were 21.5 stone for sixth. We both have Final Chapters and both have a bendy Angell mast. I have P&B sails, he has Rowsell. The other Chapter in the top 10 was Steve & Robbie Adshead. They also have an Angell mast and sail a little bit lighter. To confuse things they have Alverbank sails. My view is that the Baggy Trousers and the Numinous appear to be the most weight sensitive. Richard and I both go fast upwind but are unsurprisingly a little vulnerable downhill! Steve & Robbie are less so!
Kit lists are not at all secretive
For info
N3473 Nigel Waller built Final Chapter
P&B sails (kevlar main, dacron jib)
Angell Mast
Gybing centreboard and fat rudder from Nigel Waller
John
Yes, there's no secretiveness about setup in the class - just such a diverse range of boats and kit making the front of the fleet that it's pretty hard to give any definite answers. - Let us know what sort of weight and type of waters you'll be using the boat for and we'll give you a best guess...
Tim :)
3497 Shiny Disco Balls (for sale)
Big Issue 2
Angell Rig
Rowsell Sails
Conventional board.
9th at champs
I see your being coy about your weight Tim
Angus
2717 China doll
needle spar mast
sails Ma's old sheets I think
weight 14.5 stone but getting heavier
diet veggie
sorry I forgot 5th at Scottish Champs ;D
yeh I know there were only 5 boats. :'(
[quote by=angus link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool,m=1156107862,s=10 date=1156926265]No I'm not[/quote]
Just to clear up some confusion when I said this it was aimed at the suggestion that I was trying to get the instigator of the thread to look else where I was not trying to deign the existance of the PB Foolish.
hope that clears it up
We are 20 stone together but I am hoping to put on a stone - probably won't manage it though ...
We plan to sail perhaps 4 opens and the nationals - that will be it.
Seems choice of design may be driven more by what comes on the market rather than the perfect match on weight.
I spoke to Tom who indicated that the Numinious(sp?) was an evolution on the FF and there wasn't really that much in it ... probably crew skill factor is the most important thing ...
Rick
At 20 stone your options are pretty open. Am I right in thinking you're from Whistable (y&y forum details...)? Again open water means the options on hull shapes shouldn't be to critical. My personal impressions from competing against and sailing the various designs over the past few years are as follows (I'll stress the personal and impressions as others may not agree...)
FF - still safest all round boat (though Tom, Stevie S and Ian's experience plus numbers built help the results here). A bit of a penchant for wanting to accelerate into a death roll on reaches sometimes though chines do help with stability. Winder boats have very slippy non-slip....
Numinous - great inland or if you're a pincher, maybe less weight tolerant than other designs (easy to dig in the transom). Less form stability (so more hiking) and very tippy so best if you're used to 12s. Superquick in light airs, esp on a run.
Paradox - similar to Numinous but better on weight and heavy airs but none for sale at the mo.
Chapter - V quick upwind and marginal surfing/planing. Carries a heavier crew. Not so good at turning corners (not a problem on the sea) and flat out planing. Presumably higher wetted surface due to multiple chines??? Best paint jobs...
BI 1/2 - Chined 14/skiff sections - probably most stable and v good planing/marginal performance. 2 better than 1 in light airs, only point of sail where BI feels weak may be v light airs running and doesn't like to be pinched too much.
If you are 21 stone + I think that the Chapter is the only way to compete
If you can make 20 stone then I think the Foolish is the best option as it is so versatile.
If you can make 19 stone then the Numinous has to be an option. I perceive this to be a weight sensitive boat, or maybe it is just trickier when it is windier
These are the three dominant designs at the moment, but Big Issue and Paradox definitely work in a breeze so don't rule out.
Thing to do is get yourself a ride, I am sure that there must be someone local who can give you a taste.
John
Hmmm, why is it that everyone thinks Numinous is a weight sensitive design? We all know that Graham and Zoe (who don't weigh much) are unbeatable in theirs in light airs, but I think they'd be the same in any other shape because they're very good. The rest of the current Numinous owning group are all, I'd guess, sailing with more than 20 stone. Granted, none of us are pulling up trees at Burton Week but we are all doing at least ok and John and Mandy were convincing winners of Salcombe week in 2005. Anne and I at 20.5 stone are definitely quicker in ours than we were in our Chapter. I think the jury's still out on this one.
Mike D
N3496
Well what ever the facts are we have just brought Nigels boat (3490).
We are 20 stone at present so we'll see how we do ...
Thanks Nigel for being so helpful and we'll see you all next year.
Hope the breeze is a little less tomorrow so we can try the boat out ... :)
Welcome to the class Rick and good luck with sailing today - you could get a bit wet!
Cheers
David
3481
Didn't sail - too windy. :'(
Did spend the whole day playing with the boat and working out what all the strings did.
Sorry Nigel but I have now written on you lovley clean boat - but it's better I know what each bit does ....
Can't wait to get out - will not sail next weekend as I will be sailing the Musto Skiff at the Tide Ride.
When I was bimbling the boat at the club there was loads of interest in the boat ...
Hmmm...we might be wrong but Dave and I also think that the Numinous is fairly weight sensitive. We struggled on the marginal reaches at 20 stone. Thanks for telling us it is a tippy one Tim - just a couple of weeks too late!!!! Could of course also have been the novice helm but he seemed to be ok at getting it up wind and down the runs.
Jane