Here's my experience - I too have a Crusader '88 3339 Ledger built - so very similar. It has a carbon rig - and had a couple of fairly reasonable suits of sails. I find getting the P&B main to set well still difficult - maybe not enough pre-bend in the mast to flatten it out - Grazz helped me to set it at Trent (not much wind) and we went OK. Since then sometimes the jib backs the main a bit at the front - I recall Grazz saying they are cut fuller up front. I've found my older Musto main is much better upwind (at Starcross had some good first beats - 1 race we were 2nd to first mark and one about 4-5th - against some better DBs etc) off wind is not so fast I feel.
Maybe its a question of attending more events and getting help to set boat up - I know my shroud adjustment is not what I'd like and the ram I'm not convinced about....
Having said that I sail on a gravel pit - the Wednesady type sailing gave bigger mixed fleets - typically we can beat many of the full rig lasers even on water - its a personal H'cap too so things change over the season - last race around a 2-3 we led ALL fleet for 3/4 of race and then a Flying Fifteen, one Laser and an RS Vision got past us...so I think the 12s are competitive on water so don't give up. Maybe a newer set of sails would be OK - having a 'modern' set on an older rig though may cause you problems (I'm no expert and still learning!!).
I think the Class is great and a good inland boat esp. to sail with children - I haven't been able to do as mnay Opens / training as I'd like but I think they are the key to improvements esp. if you are 'the only 12 in the village' so to speak..
Note - i used to be a yoof Laser sailor too and also know I had problems in past beating the 12s - so seen it from other way.
Stick with it - maybe you can shop around for a more suitable 2nd setof sails and see what happens.
Good thing is you can get lots of advise here (maybe too much??)
Kean
Thanks for that Kean,
I think you're right more open meetings and help are needed. The bit about the main was helpful as we really struggle getting the balance right upwind, if we get the jib tell tales flying correctly half the main is back winding. If I bear off to set the main correctly we can't out point an ent. With the Grad we just get the windward tell tales backing jumping and everthing set perfectly.
So there is hope :)
Andy
Andy
The Crusader 88 is a great boat to sail inland with your daughter. Try and find a good set of second hand sails and I am sure you will go much better and those lasers will be behind you! Just remember though most modern sails have been cut for a carbon rig so will be fuller and require more mast bend.
A twelve is a sensitive boat and does take some time to get the best from.
I do not know where you sail but there must be someone near by who can help you withthe set up, often small changes make a big difference in a 12.
Andy
You should need neither a new class nor a new boat for sailing on the river. What you have should be ideal apart from the sails perhaps - do try and find a cheaper 2nd hand suit - they do come up occasionally. Where is your bit of river? Can you come to Twickenham open meeting on Sunday to see how some "expert" river sailors set up their boats?
You should be using next to no kicker in the really light stuff on the river and frequently should ignore the jib tell tales - the wind at the top of the main is often truer and stronger on a river. You need to sit very well forward - tight against the shrouds. See the article by John Thornton in the guide on this site. It contains some sound advice.
Don't change class - pesevere - the 12 will reward you far more than a Grad when you get it right - it will come but can take a bit of time.
Cheers
Andy,
Just bought some new dacron sails for our crusader ( bought this year to race with my son). Has transformed our speed this weekend . Gone from the back to the front of the handicap fleet. Still thinking of buying a modern 12 towards the end of next year. Good luck and I hope you have as much fun as we are!
John N3232
:) New suit of sails (or good second hand ones), more open meetings and more practace it is then. Thanks for the great advice, that alone has convinced to stick with the 12
Andy
Attaboy Andy!!!!!!!
Keep it up - it's really worth it! (12's are worth their weight in gold...)
We're going in for BW next year (ok. not with an AC boat) but wer'e only beginners too.... ;) ;) ;) - Maybe see you there in July/August ? 8)
Jim N3130 Nuttyshell (soon N3470 Passion Pudding as well 8) 8))
Andy
I must admit I have been having similar issues to yourself, and like you have a crusader 88 (3355),that I bought a month or so ago.
I will be at Grafham at the weekend, so if we both hunt out some kind soul to help us with some boat speed, we can compare notes at the end of each race.
I did get some help from Steve Sallis at Hykeham (where I sail), and he has made some useful sugestions we could share/compare, mostly on mast rake, use of mast ram, rig tension and sail settings.It has made some difference,but I understand 12's are very sensitive to changes , and it is useful to know that there must be more speed still to be had.
Hopefully catch up with you there!
Martin
Hi Martin,
At least we'll be able to race against each other!
I'd love to see the notes you have put together, with us it's mostly guess work so science can only help. We are based at Welland Yacht Club in spalding so we're not far from you, in fact I've raced my Laser at Hykeham on a number of occasions and three boats visited from Hykeham a few weeks ago.
It would be good to meet up and do some back to back tunning at some time as the two boats sound identical, I'm happy to come to Hykeham.
What condition are your sails in?
See you on Saturday ;D
Andy
3353
Hi Andy,
That sounds good!
Can come up to Hykeham whenever you want, we have a (small) fleet of 12's there, Steve's Feeling foolish, also a Design 8, and myself, but there are some people seriously thinking of buying a 12 next year. Let u know when you want to come up.
My sails are an Ullman, and reasonably newish, but I have a spare P&B main which I could bring along to Grafham if you want.
Catch you then ;D ;D ;D
Martin
Can I join the party?
I am in a crusader but sadly not an '88 :'(
If you do find someone I wouldn;t mind listening in too.
really looking forward to it.
Jon
N3211
Thats fine by me!!
See you then, I am aiming to get there between 9 and 9.30
Martin
I'll be there too with my Crusader '88. Looks like we can Cruise - ader around together!! Might be windy there though which makes any comparisons more difficult on water.
Kean
N3339
So thats at least 5 Crusaders on Saturday then. Any more coming out of the "wood"-work?
Mike
N3274
as long as you're all trailing after the Holy Grail I'll be happy ;)
the more ACers we get the better - seems to be a few first timers but I'm sure we can all have some fun out there - then you'll know to come out to play next year too.
King Arthur: Go and tell your master that we have been charged by God with a sacred quest. If he will give us food and shelter for the night, he can join us in our quest for the Holy Grail.
French Soldier: Well, I'll ask him, but I don't think he will be very keen. Uh, he's already got one, you see.
King Arthur: What?
Sir Galahad: He said they've already got one!
King Arthur: Are you sure he's got one?
French Soldier: Oh yes, it's very nice!
The Holy Grail was wood too!
Interesting reading.
We publish our tuning guide at www.pinbax.com (It might help) go to the sailloft section.
I will also be at Grafham and am generally approachable and happy toi talk N12 tuning /sailing or call 01604 592808 Advice is free.
Tom
I agree with Dave Wilkins, he is a real hero and has encouraged me and all the other Spinnaker N12's all along. Blimey, he even lets me beat him once a season (next season I'm negotiating for two wins). I started sailing at Spinnaker three seasons ago and was complete rubbish, I have kept at it and the rewards are there if you do. The 12 is not the easiest to sail, but stick at it and the results will come. My boat (just sold) is awesome in very light wind on the lake at Spinnaker, 2 years ago I thought it was rubbish, but it was me ~ not the boat!!
I have to say that new sails made a lot of difference to my boat speed, but knowing where to sit and learning how to sail the boat has made just as much difference.
Next year I am hoping to escape and get to more open meetings, I know from previous excursions this is the best way to learn. Most 12 sailors are great people and only too helpful, long live the class!
Simon
N?
Simon,
maybe see the same development in Passion Pudding when I start to sail her too... :o
Feeling pretty crappy today - just put Nuttyshell (Tigress) away for Winter yesterday... Sniff :'(
Jim N3130 (wood - kinda good)