This has been one of my hobby horses for a while and Simon W's recent post brought it to the forefront of my mind again so I thought I'd look out some numbers on the subject.
Before I start I'd like to say that I know that it's a whole world of hassle to organise even a one day event and the enthusiasm of those who do so is very much appreciated by the class.
However I think the class is caught between a number of 'hanger on' events that won't lay down and die and an excess of enthusiasm where people are adding yet more events to the circuit without any thought to whether they're really sustainable on the calendar. Also the concept of reciprocity seems to be lacking, if you're going to moan about people not turning up to an event then at least have attended other peoples. Even I've managed to attend a Champs in the last 2 years despite being respectively in Aberdeen and France and being out of the country for 6 months of the year.
So to the numbers, I've looked at 7 other classes of popular hiking dinghies, I've counted the number of events
they have on their calendar (including any handicap events), and then looked at their nationals attendance (07) as a rough indication of class health and then their maximum and minimum attendance at opens for the 08 season so far which I think is a good measure of the health of their circuits. All the numbers are somewhat approximate as all the fixtures lists are in different formats, not all race reports have full results and my eyes started to hurt reading the Enterprise site before I could count all their events...:P
Class Events Nationals 07 Open 08 (max/min)
Tasar 9 46 6/4
Scorpion 19 56 27/??
Lark 20 58 45/12
Firefly 24 55 32/30 (15 for singlehanded event)
RS200 40 126 64/22
Merlin Rocket 49 79 37/11
Enterprise 60+ 56 23/16
National 12 66 36 20/0
So the Tasars and RS200s are pretty anomalous, the one suffering from the small size of its class and the other boosted by significant financial/advertising clout. But it's interesting to note that even with a big pool of active boats the RS200s don't go overboard with their circuit.
The Merlin result is probably misleading as I've included all their vintage events. The number of 'normal' opens is probably lower by at least 10. Interestingly, even the Merlins can't find a lot of people to go to Ranelagh...:o
Ents seem pretty similar, however I'd guess that their numbers are quite consistent for most opens due to having established club fleets at the places they visit. Something that - with a few exceptions - we don't have.
So what these results seem to indicate (possibly with a klaxon horn and lots of red flashing lights) is that having masses of events (especially one dayers) is very bad for open meeting attendance and probably has knock on effects in terms of poor nationals attendance.
Or more simply: Less is More (within reason)
More likely to have a good turn out
More likely to have a great social
More likely to have good racing
More likely to make a good impression on the host club/potential 12 sailors
More impact in sailing media race reports
More time club sailing to promote/build fleets
More likely to improve BW attendance
So my proposal would be that the open circuit is limited to 15 events total (the Gill series to stay as it is). 4 events per area, 3 to count. Add Burton Week, Salcombe/NW Norfolk/Bass Week, Vintage events and the usual round of winter handicap events and that should give a sub-25 event calendar. The main crowd pleasers (Salcombe, Harwich, Northhampton, Bristol etc.) would stay in on a permanent basis but the other events would rotate year on year to take in new venues (I know some clubs want an event every year or not at all but unless they draw the numbers I don't see why they should stay in).
Events should be 2 dayers in all cases with a reduced entry for those only able to make 1 day (but only by pre-entry to stop the entry fees bartering that's gone on at times when some people have decided they didn't like the weather/wetsuit was too smelly etc.)
So thats my little rant for today - I may well get a few backs up here, but I think this is a very important piece of the puzzle to improving the health of the class.
Thoughts?
Tim N2822
I dont normally say this, but I think you have a point...
And with facts too! wow - are you feeling OK Timmy?
No sure there's a monopoly on factual arguments...seem to remember an argument along the lines of 'Assymetrics are more than 100% efficient...'. Perpetual motion machine Mr C??? ;D;D
An interesting thought and no doubt valid to a point. My initial issue is with dropping/reducing one day open meetings. Two days are not always practical. My crew can get away for a days sailing but her family would not be happy for her to go off all weekend I am sure, the same applies to those of us who sail with other peoples kids etc. I have dropped out of a 2 day event this weekend for this very reason as I can only make 1 day and feel it is unfair to risk cocking up the results of someone who is sailing both days and hence can qualify where I can not. If the one day open meetings dissapear then my sailing will be mainly at our club. Having said that I am not against a reduction in events based on the level of support.
Interestingly Frampton had 5 vintage boats out last weekend despite loosing one which was not finished in time and one due to injury! The following day they had a South West meeting and the entries were one vintage boat from the North who stayed over (Brian Herring) and Brian Kitching's two boats cos he lent one to another Frampton member. My guess is that Frampton will not be keen to run another SW meeting but will run a 1 day vintage meeting. Howard C N2, N2266 and N3356 in support of one day opens.
I was one of the nonp-attendees for Frampton despite it being close - my boat was not and still is not finished. Tried a couple of other boats to borrow but also not ready (bit early in season maybe for some AC boats). I know 2 other people who were going to Frampton but were ill (they attended last year). Appreciate all the efforts Brian went to - but perhaps in this case it may be better to hold one combined event and take results out seperatly (as we plan to do for South Cerney). Yes I feel very guilty about non attending plus there were other issues to sort out at home too - trying to balance all these out esp. for a non sailing partners can be difficult.
One of the issues for the 12s is the way the boats seem to be spread out so thinly geographically with one or two hot spots within each area. SW is pretty big and so limiting the events still means lots of travel and can we all afford the time / cost of doing that these days?? Maybe we need a few carefully chosen events / dates as you suggest but fitting that into Clubs calendars is not always possible.
I'm not sure what the answer is - do we poll the class ahead of each calendar year and ask them which will they attend? Then events change...some out of our control (weather) and some not (family commitments / work etc) that still affect ability to attend.
Maybe there are too many events and if some of the 'local' events are too close to the main Gill how does this impact the attendance? Some of us may only prefer to commit to the big events and try to attend local, whilst others may feel less inclined to mix it up at the Gill events and prefer to stay local.
We all have our own views and personal circumstances / commitments which clearly alters how we wish to spend our leisure time and cash.
The numbers though so make interesting reading and ulitmately the Class needs to deceide what they want and then actually attend the events. Why 0 as the lowest - surley that would have been cancelled!!
Yes I'm one of the tardy ones who has not made it onto the water yet in 2008 but hope to make amends later in the year - MAY even get to BW (or part of it...).
Interesting debate to commence......
P.S forgot Frampton one other planned attendee broke the front off his boat in the gales...
All good stuff, and a worthy subject for debate as there are plenty of pros and cons and so lots of varied opinion. The good news is that we have 3-4 months to discuss this on/at various forums.
I have serious doubts about the quality of the data that Tim is using, but suspect that the 'message' such as there is one is still broadly correct. I do think that we need to keep in mind what is cause and what is effect....
Happy to discuss these matters further, i have in the past discussed them in Committee (most years), at the AGM (some years) and with a beer at a sailing club (several times most years).
Antony
Howard you seem to be saying you went to an event that was essentially a 2 day event for the vintage boats and a 1 day event for the rest and no non-vintage visitors turned up...I'm not sure how that's an argument for 1 day events?
While it is difficult for some people to make two days I think it ony accounts for a small number of those who do travel. I've done a lot of the circuit since 2000 and I can't remember a 1 day open that was really well supported. It's not that we shouldn't consider people who can only make 1 day at all, but rather that we should attempt to attract rather than accomodate. 2 day events with 20+ boats, good socials at good waters are more likely to be attractive both to present attendees and those who don't travel very often especially if they're a bit more infrequent. 1 dayers can be accomodated as mentioned above and maybe by providing enough races on the sunday for them to qualify for the event. I don't think worry that people will be upset by them appearing in the results is really valid - after all we allow race by race entry of Burton Week.
The class also falls into the trap of taking what people say they want to be what they'll actually turn up for. As an example every couple of years Starcross gets into a flap about the 'need for fleet racing' to boost club race attendance. Classes and enforcement are discussed and 'fleet racing days' are put on the calendar. Without fail these fleet races usually attract far tinier entries than the handicap races that precede them... Last weekend after handicap race comprising of about 30-40 monos, there were a whole 4 Merlins for the fleet race...
Counting against 1 day events and a huge open circuit is also the present economic realities, people are finding the rest of life more expensive particularly with petrol looking like it may hit £1.50 by the end of the year. Travelling a long distance to sail for 1 day against 5-10 boats is unlikely to attract people when they could simply race at their club. Had I been able to collect my 12 on saturday last weekend then this is exactly the decision I would have made with regards to Frampton. While Brian has been brilliant in putting in the miles over the past few years it just didn't make sense to go through the rigmarole of packing up the boat, paying for petrol and entries to sail against a small/non-existent fleet on a lake.
Kean, I do see what you were trying to do with the opens but I think it was flawed. What happens is that people go to the small event, don't have a particularly great time and therefore don't go to the big event the next week as they've done as much travelling as they're willing to. If you don't offer them lots of small events then they're more likely to make the extra effort to go to a big onea bit further away.
The 'coincidence' of all those people not being able to come to Frampton is pretty much what I experienced when I was Midlands rep. The people usually never had any intention of coming. Olton and Earlswood were alway like that and I tried to get rid of them off the calendar to no avail. I see Olton is still on the calendar (why, WHY)...
With regards to the south west, my own preference would be for Bristol and Salcombe as regulars and then 2 other events from something like Saltash/Roadford/Starcross/Lyme/Weymouth/South Cerney. Changing venues each year. Nothing west of Plymouth as (sorry James and Emma) with the best will in the world people will just not travel that far into cornwall for an open.
Antony, I'm sure you're right about the data. I'm sure most classes hide their poor turnouts. Nationals entries were from Y&Y. AS I said the fixtures lists are difficult to compare...but 3 times the number of events of other classes is still pretty significatnt. I'm willing to put money on it being a cause rather than effect.
Hi
Tim's data on the Scorpion class looks pretty spot on - they have only had one open meeting so far and they got 27 boats to a smallish pond in the midlands. I also know that 56 for the Nationals is right and they will probably top that this year.
Everyone has pressures on their time and I find it difficult to fit in more that about seven open meetings in anyway and then it is a case of looking at those where the attendance will be best - usually the Gill series. I think there has already been a fair size cull of open meetings since I was Chair in 2000 when there was often a choice of venues every weekend and so far that doesn't really seem to have increased the attendees.
This is a symptom of a class needing rejuvenation rather than the cause of it methinks!
Jane
Tim,
You really should try to make it to Grafham one year. While i agree that it is weakened by the lack of a social it has often (always/usually) provided the best sail of the year and one of the top 2-3 turnouts of the year. It has always been a one-day event and not suffered for it.
SYC bar tomorrow night? Mine is a Doom (as they say down there).
Antony
No Tim I think you are right we have both booked the time off for Salcombe but other things have stopped us attending which is a real shame Emma really really wanted to sail at Salcombe and I did too,
Saltash/Roadford/Starcross and Bristol are good but for us the others are as you say are to out of the way!!!!
We have done Grafham and I very much enjoyed it but we did have time off just to bimbull up and see family on the way. I like one day meeting as for us we travel or try to with the cost of fuel might not be going to far !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hope to see you all soon.;D
James and Emma
Way Down West
Hmm, yes Doom Bar, mmmm
Actually I did attend the first Grafham Gill series (2004?), it was where I picked up my recurring knee problems but the turnout was good. However that year and this year it was a pseudo-2 dayer with another event on the other day. It also is pretty central between the London/East Coast and Northern fleets, has good transport and is known to have good turnouts all of which rarely apply to other river/pond 1 dayers.
Kath and I started our 12 sailing during Janes charmanship - if there was a cull perhaps it wasn't far enough even then. I remember the enthusiasm engendered by all these interesting sounding venues on the race card and then the disappointment of finding out that the class was nowhere near as active as the calendar seemed to suggest. Looe sounded a really great place to go until we learnt that only 3 boats had attended in 1999 and finding out that had we gone to it in 2000 we would have been the only boat. Even if too many events is not the cause badly attended events still affect peoples perception of the class.
A lot of replacement events have crept back on to replace the Elys, Looes, Burtons and Beestons. Rationalisation and consolidation of fleets on a small number of events is - IMHO - one of the more obvious and cheap options to try to increase turnouts. Less hassle for area reps and an overworked event co-ordinator too. I don't really believe that the committee has any better ideas at the moment.
Be interesting to know whether a similar plan is partly responsible for the resurgence of Larks and Fireflies - anyone with the experience in those classes?
Good post Tim, well done for starting what I am sure will be an interesting thread.
Well done you for your Burton attendances, but please recognise that BW just isn’t a big draw for some of us. If it continues to be based in the South and is a week of hard sailing North West Norfolk Week will always win hands down for me.
There are events which stay in the programme ‘because we’ve always gone there’ and which result in howls of anguish from some sailors if you try to remove them. Having experienced trying to organise meetings at clubs which don’t have active N12’s I would remove them from the programme as it is a real pain trying to find anyone who’s willing to take charge of them. That would mean goodbye Filey, Derwent and Grimwith from the Northern Series, and, very regretfully, East Lothian from the Scottish Series but watch out for the squeals of anguish from those who enjoy big/open water sailing. I suspect that Tynemouth will have low numbers again this year, exacerbated by allowing another meeting to be moved to directly clash with it, and in our case a clash with an event which Ellie is keen to sail in at our home club. If I want to keep her motivated my wish for some sea sailing may have to be put aside for this year (sorry Howards).
This year the number of events in the Northern series has increased again. This was with the support and encouragement of the majority of those who attended the fleet meeting at Ripon SC and there were lots of promises made to attend various meetings. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating â€" let’s see how many boats turn up at South Windermere on 17 May and at Scaling Dam the following week. With so many meetings to choose from, only 4 required to qualify and a daughter who is wanting to sail with me in the Mirror we have taken the view that this year we will try to qualify for the series, and know which 4 we will definitely do, there are a few more which we may do if time and the diary permits and the rest are write-offs. Had there been less meetings we would have been more inclined to try and support them all. With so many to choose from it was too easy to knock a few off.
So where are we going and why? Newburn (February and November) are definites. Interestingly these 2 meetings just used to be ‘events’, not qualifiers. Our other 2 definite Old Spice qualifiers will be South Windermere and Ripon. We will be at Hykeham with the Vintage boat because the summer event was great fun last year and we hope Ellie will enjoy crewing Xanthus at this year’s event. We also have our usual Pie Boy weekend booked with Ice Cream Man and his clan for Hunstanton. We would have taken Xanthus to TVSC for the Vintage meeting but it’s been moved and we can’t do the replacement date, and would have liked to have gone to Aldeburgh but it clashes with South Windermere.
We will support all the Scottish Series meetings except ELYC this year (clashes with a club event which Ellie has on her radar) as long as I can find myself crews â€" partly because we are organising the series and also because there are some wonderful places to sail on the Scottish circuit this year which fit our ‘family weekend’ profile. As for Gill, if I qualify so be it. If I don’t so be it. It isn’t a great draw for me and I won’t be going out of my way to get sufficient meetings under my belt. I guess the key message in this is that we have picked events on the basis of where we want to sail, not on the basis of competing for a place within a series (although I'll be fighting Homer to the death for the Lairwell Trophy!). I am glad that Salcombe, Harwich, Northampton and Bristol are crowd pleasers for Tim but (with the exception of Northampton) they leave me cold and I can’t see us ever travelling to Salcombe, Harwich or Bristol to compete.
The Scottish series is currently 5 meetings, with 2 to count. If we up the number to qualify we will struggle to get qualifiers. We would support reducing the number of meetings in the Northern series but with only 5 meetings as per your proposal getting a good mix of river, inland, open and sea sailing would be nigh on impossible and would, I suspect, end up with no-one being happy.
I'd firmly oppose insistence on 2 day events. Many clubs who offer meetings now won’t make water available for a 2 day event (Ripon certainly wouldn’t â€" and we had 22 boats at our one day meeting last year). We used to have a number of 2 days events in the Northern series but found that support wasn’t there for this format and gradually nearly all of these meetings have moved to a 1 day format. The only 2 day events in the northern circuit this year are Filey (where we piggy back on to their Regatta) and Yorkshire Ouse (which only has one race, late afternoon, on the Saturday which tends to attract local boats rather than travellers, who turn up and qualify by doing all the races on the Sunday). Two day events are a pain if you don’t have a family member crewing for you and are expensive because of needing overnight accommodation (admittedly less so for those of use with motorhomes or tents).
I will be very interested in seeing how this thread develops â€" if the thrust is to move to 2 day events in the South there’ll be a double bottomed boat for sale as well as the Cheshire Cat.
RM
There are lots of issues here and I might comment on others later, but one thing to keep in mind is that the Twelve annual events calendar is not just a calendar of events laid on by the Class. Burton Week is owned by the Class, so is the Gill series, although it depends on clubs to play along. However, the summer weeks are independent in their own right, as are all the open meetings. The Class, via its regional committees or reps, organises the series (Thames, Northern etc) but each of the open meetings is laid on by clubs. What you therefore have in the Twelve calendar is a compilation of all this lot, but it's not up to the Class to take a centralist "we decide what stays and what goes" view.
I rather like the fact that some meetings in the Thames Area have trophies that have been raced for over more than 50 years. I happen to like going round to lots of different waters and helping to bring the odd burst of new energy to small but determined local fleets (eg we're currently seeing a bit of a resurgence at Twickenham). And I don't want small inland clubs who show generous hospitality to the visiting Twelve fleet every year to feel that they're not included. In the end, the market will decide. If people don't travel, then the clubs will stop organising meetings. However, I don't want to be party to any committee decision that says - "you're in but you lot aren't". And I certainly don't want to get to all 2-day meetings - that just takes no account of the different domestic circumstances that people have.
Open meeting and Burton Week attendances are in the end a reflection of overall activity - more people sailing more gets more people out on the water everywhere.
Mike D
N3496
Bernard,
thanks for a very comprehensive post!
I should clarify I only used the examples as they're events I'm familiar with. I'm sure events like Ripon/Yeadon fill the slot as opens which attract a strong following year on year for the northern area.
My thrust simply put is less but better (in attendance and socials) events, events that are actually worth travelling that bit more for.
I'd be happy to do a couple of northern area events if I knew they were likely to have a decent turnout (and weren't pond/river events). I've been to Tynemouth and Bass week before and they're superb venues. I would happily make the effort to attend if I knew the turnout was say 20+ and it was a 2 day event to justify the distance travelled (and they had as good a barbeque as last time), but this will only happen if there were no other events clashing with it.
I'm with you with on BW, though that's a whole other can of worms. Personally I'd favour a long weekend which would make it easier to take to venues 'perceived' as less attractive (i.e. East coast/anywhere north of London...:X). It would then allow people more time to go to their most local 'holiday' week which might rejuvenate the Bass week 12s and give us some decent fleets at NW Norfolk and Salcombe.
The 'need for a mix of events' is the same as the 'need to go miles offshore for huge long races to have a fair champs' attitude. Part delusions of past grandeur, part what a small core of regulars want. There are 300ish association members and perhaps the same again (or even more) actively 12 sailing at club level. The present priority is to simply get more of these people sailing in class events and engaged with the class - finding the best sailor (in an ever decreasing pool at present) is the last thing we should be worried about.
A lot of the restricted waters and open sea events attract pretty small entries. The real turnouts come to open, flat water venues - big lakes/reservoirs and estuaries. These are the events to bring in the club level 12 sailors and get them enthused about opens and being part of the class. Restricted water events are too dull/local knowledgy while big wave sailing is pretty terrifying for someone inexperienced sailing with a small child as crew.
In the same way that I'm not suggesting (as Mike put it) 'you can have an event and you can't' but rather '...you can't this year'. The mix would , with rotating events, still get covered. Just not every year with the present tiny entries.
I do very definitely think that the class should be taking a centralising approach to it's calendar, presently it's pretty much anarchy. The market has already decided - any non-Gill river event attracts a sub 10 boat entry while the average 12 sailor is increasing in age and decreasing in numbers fast. If that isn't the market sending us a message... Interesting that most of the 12 youth side has migrated to 200s/Larks/Merlins to sail open water events with big socials. :(
'If people don't travel, then the clubs will stop organising meetings.' - except for the river/pond clubs who have little to lose by holding an open every year even if it only attracts 5 boats. They clutter up the calendar, dilute the fleet at other events and so we lose events at active clubs with good waters as they can't justify the expense of rescue boats and catering for a small entry, not to say forcing their large, active membership to miss out on a weekends club sailing. Thus we end up with more restricted water events, less people travel and so on...
Time for bed...
Is this a volunteer to organise the fixture list for next year?
Kevin
With attitudes like that Tim Im actually glad Ive sold my 12 until the kids get bigger. Not everybody wants to compete in huge fleets on big waters, some enjoy more sociable sailing at smaller venues and can sail better there as its what they are used to. Having all these big popular events is great for those who can afford it and have no commitments to other people or hobbies/interests. Are these events run so that people can win in big fleets or run to let people enjoy their sailing wherever they want to go. How many past champs has TVSC produced and this is one of those horrid inland rivers you talk about. Many people have grown up on such stretches of water and without their enthusiasm where would the fleet be, Up River, Earlswood, Nottingham etc all produced champ winning helms..........
Do not support such places at your peril.
EX 3317
Yeah, goddam those popular events Stu, we should have more 5 boat river events...
In that typical 12 class way any challenge to the status quo is refuted by invoking the past. Why should it matter that TVSC or any other inland club produced national champions in the past? Most of the clubs listed in the handbook have no 12s now and what is the average age of the few helms at TVSC? 40? 50? None of these places are very likely to produce anything but the occasional 12 sailor again. And who'll leave after a couple of years as most seem to at present.
The Gill series is one ray of light in an otherwise pretty rapid decline. And indicates that people will make an effort to come an event if they're sure of the turnout and social. Wanting big fleets has nothing to do with winning and everything to do with decent socials - ultimately thats the big draw for most of us and having a bit more competition at all levels on the water is a bonus.
Irrespective of what I write here, just going back to the first post and looking at those numbers again should start alarm bells ringing.
Kevin, I'd never do as good a job as you as I'm no way as organised... My best way of contributing is trying to build up the club fleet again to get some new people into the class. However I'm not holding out much hope the way things look at the moment - think I may well end up going to the Merlins or Larks as most of the younger 12 people already have within a season or two. Hence my £200 12 :'(
[face=Calibri]Further up Tim you said you could not understand why I quoted Frampton as an argument for one day events. Simple!! It meant I could go, sail one day and qualify, had I needed to sail both days to qualify then I would not have been able to go at all! [/face]
[face=Calibri]You are supporting the large open waters which have a big part to play no doubt but personally I don’t especially like the lumpy stuff and prefer the smaller waters that the 12 is also ideal for. The problem with rotating venues is likely to be getting back in after missing a year and Bernard is quite right in that in the North at least, getting two days is a problem at the clubs. Saturdays are becoming easier than Sundays because it doesn’t disrupt the club sailing, and most of our two day events are now one day and work well. [/face]
I agree that we could perhaps reduce the overall number of events but let’s not try and squeeze out all the inland and river venues. I note your concern that the average age of 12 helms may be 40-50 at TVSC, I now have my bus pass and am delighted to still be sailing 12’s albeit rather slowly. Perhaps Paul Turner should work out the actual average age of TVSC or for that matter Northern Circuit sailors, I think you may be surprised how ancient some of us are! On the plus side I can use my fuel allowance to pay for fuel to go to open meetings and this year if I make all the open days I have planned to attend (including some 2 day events) it totals 21 days, I am not currently planning to do Burton Week and I won’t qualify for the Gill Series but I will qualify in the Northern and Vintage circuits so I am happy that I am doing my bit and enjoying it. Environmentally having a good, mixed venue open series in my local area means I can compete against some good people, sail on a range of waters fairly regularly without having to travel long distances and sail on my local puddle at Yeadon in between. I look forward to seeing you all at Hykeham and seeing how this thread develops as it has certainly captured a few opinions which must be a good thing.
By all means tweak and improve the programme after all we are a development class but from my perspective it aint broke so don’t try to do a major fix.
Howard C N2, N2266 and N3356
going back to your original point Tim I have a feeling that you have missinterpreted the importance of the quality of the events on the nationals turnout. If you did this analysis for the national 12's over the last 10 years I think you might find that the step decline in the turnout for nationals correlates (inversely) closely with the turnout for gill series events. The interpretation being that what people want is big fleet racing (where big these days is 20 boats). In the past this was provided by the nationals and norfolk week. Now however the class has a thriving alternative by way of the gill series so competative sailors do not have to go to the trouble, expense and pure physical effort of a week sailing long races out at sea.
If you look at it that way you'd conclude quite the opposite - cull the gill series if you want a healthy nationals turnout. Further the smaller and one day events are entirely irrelevant to gill and nationals turnout as they cater for a completely different sort of National12 sailor. i.e the type who don't have a competative boat and don't sail to win - rather the enjoyment of fleet sailing and a good position against their neighbours. There are a vast number of that type of sailor in the N12 fleet and to deprive them of local open meetings will only disengage those sailors.
I'm not suggesting that either course of action is right. Rather be a bit more positive about the health of the class. A high number of events is a sign of a thriving class, a core of well attended competative events provides a focus for the elite and a large number of locally fed smaller events proves that the 'rump' of the class is catered for and is engaged.
Matt
N3486
I think you'd find that a lot of those who do the local open meetings do enjoy the competition - it's just a different sort of competition. I really enjoy the racing on the Northern and Scottish circuits and am in the fortunate position of being able to choose which boat to sail to suit the venue and the crew situation. We will be bringing the Vintage boat to Hykeham, because I want to sail with Ellie and also because I know I will have some excellent racing against my fellow Vintagers. This weekend I'm having some fantastic racing in Roly, with a first class borrowed crew. Ten years ago I'd never have thought that I'd be enjoying racing a Mirror and teaching my daughter to crew - times move on! As has been said, people sail 12's for all sorts of reasons and the key thing is to keep them sailing.
Now going off to resume battle with Homer :)
RM
PS Annandale laid on the most wonderful social last night!
This is the biggest discussion topic for a while and important it is too. Trent Valley S.C. has received a lot of mention and in response to Stu W, and his description of our water as a "horrid little river", I thought that I should add some facts. Club members Dick Wyche in 1938, Mike Nokes in 1960, John Royce in 1976 won the Burton Cup, as did former club members Robert Peebles in 1995 and Graham Camm (many times!) after they had left the area. We have managed to keep a fleet going continuously since 1937, although it has been a struggle at times. There are 9 boats in the dinghy park now and we are desparately keen for friends to come and sail at our three Open Meetings this year (described by Paul Turner in another Discussion Group message), to keep the heritage going. The river is both an attractive and tricky place to sail and Mr W would learn something if he were to get another boat and sail here.
Ken Goddard, N.2300
I have only sailed once at Trent (at a 2 day Gill event (for the benefit of my leaned friend mr laws)). I did rather enjoy it, having some similarity with sailing at salcombe. That is hardly a horrid little river and neither in my view is the trent at TVSC.
I do agree with Tim in regard to perhaps reviewing the number of opens, especially regionally, surely we can agree a rotation amongst a regions clubs. there will be some clubs that will not wish to join in, their loss not ours. My club hosted the Inlands 2 year ago and yet some members are still moaning about it. lets take fewer opens to venues where we are welcomed and, crucially, we get more support from our own members. This is what happens with the Gill events Grafham and bristol seem to be the "pemanent" events with the others ciculating,
I also sympathise with the view expressed by Bernard that it is easier for those of us without permanent crew to do one day events.
But surely the problems alluded to in this thread are the same for all dinghy classes
Roger
I can only manage to sail about once a month on average so we rarely sail at our home club and as we generally have to travel a long way we much prefer weekend meets, but I think it is important to to have a mix of both venue and one two day events to keep everybody happy. One possibilty perhaps is to have more events like Yeadon Ripon where there is a seperate event on each day of the weekend. We would love to come to more Gill events but they are too southern based. Yes I do think there are too many events but I am not so sure of the answer.
Just spent a brilliant weekend at annandale where I got speaking to some young gp14 sailers, I asked them why they were ailing gps rather than 12s when one of them described a gp as a breeze block the answer was for good racing and they certainly had that
Quote from: 423This is the biggest discussion topic for a while and important it is too. Trent Valley S.C. has received a lot of mention and in response to Stu W, and his description of our water as a "horrid little river", I thought that I should add some facts. Club members Dick Wyche in 1938, Mike Nokes in 1960, John Royce in 1976 won the Burton Cup, as did former club members Robert Peebles in 1995 and Graham Camm (many times!) after they had left the area. We have managed to keep a fleet going continuously since 1937, although it has been a struggle at times. There are 9 boats in the dinghy park now and we are desparately keen for friends to come and sail at our three Open Meetings this year (described by Paul Turner in another Discussion Group message), to keep the heritage going. The river is both an attractive and tricky place to sail and Mr W would learn something if he were to get another boat and sail here.
Ken Goddard, N.2300
Ken I was Actually quoting Tim and being somewhat ironic, if you read my post you will infact realise I was defending the role of clubs like TVSC rather than decrying them as some others are. I sailed for many years in the midlands and enjoyed sailing on rivers and small puddles and fully agree that many helms would learn greatly from the experience which is why these smaller venues produce so many champs especially when compared to the no of sailers they have as members. Long live the smaller venues and long may they continue to serve the class...........
Matt,
your theory about he Gill series and the nationals is interesting, but nationals attendances were falling for a number of years before the Gill series was set up. I also get the impression (as I don't have the access to the numbers - ship internet only works at dial-up speeds...) that Gill series turnouts are falling slowly too. When it first started 30+ boats was regareded as a good turnout - now it seems to be 20+???
Stu - aha! The 'worthiness' argument. That other class favourite for maintaining the status quo (gate starts, ridiculously long championships days etc...). It doesn't matter about events being attractive, they should be as awkward as possible as it supposedly produces better sailors....Or maybe not. Every small water club has its 'breeding ground of champions' myth like every religion has a creation myth. However if this was true then surely these clubs would produce lots of champions? But they don't as a rule and in most cases you find that it was generally a one off and often quarter of a century before! Given the numbers of tiny clubs and the number of championships it's possible to win in dinghy sailing its not really surprising that once in a while a particularly motivated individual comes along and goes onto great things. The two small lake clubs I've been a member of, Olton Mere SC and Forfar SC have both shown this pattern - previous Moth world champion '85 at Olton, past Ent world champ at Forfar somewhere in the mists of time, however in both cases the general standard of the club fleet isn't as high as the 'reflected (and endlessly repeated) glory' assumes.
At the end of the day I'm not pushing to get rid of any water large or small that has an active fleet. The criteria for inclusion should be a water that is
attractive to a wide variety of sailors and/or
has a recent history of good attendances and/or
has an active club fleet. So events like Olton don't on any count fulfil this criteria whereas TVSC or Up River would.
Two other things come to mind:
- That if Phil Browns post is correct (and I hope it is) that the second hand list is moving well then there are actually a lot of new 12 sailors, generally in AC boats actively sailing in handicap fleets at clubs all over the place. Therefore that we don't see larger turnouts at events suggests that the class isn't offering what people want.
- That the vintage wing already caters well for people who want river sailing in boats that are most suited to it.
Tim
PS Out of interest (I don't have the handbook available) when did a river club last win the Gypsy?
It is great to see this topic getting some decent debate.
The large open meeting calander we have always had (it is much less now than it was!) means that the hot shots are always away and the impression left at club level is that of an obsolete or obsolecent boat incapable of sailing to it's handicap. I have long argued that the best way to build the class is at club level so a large number of meetings is not necessarily the best way to do this.
I would not necessarily advocate a major cull. Many meetings have gone already (Beeston, Notts County, Burton, Exe, Starcross and Saltash). I do think we should give thought to the idea of having 2 weekends a month without an open meeting. This would encourage people to club sail and make the fast boats and sailors more visible at a club level. The result being that the class would appear more attractive (aspirational?) at club level and generate more grass roots interest.
It is interesting that the most resilient club fleets are those that travel very little. When the experts are on hand most weekends to advise and encourage, the effect is to build a fleet spirit.
...no I don't do much club sailing, but I have a better excuse than most!
Derek 3510
Maybe more people would prefer a 12 AND sail competitively if they knew they would not be penalised for their weight....
Now I love my 12's but it's a fact that if you're like me (94Kg + 65 Kg) you can't get anyway up the fleet. And not just because I lack the skills. A good example of a skilled person would be Rick Purkins, last year with his wife at BW. He was not happy with the fact that despite obvious skills he could not get right to the front. Result, sold his 12 and moved on. I have the feeling that many people have seen a 12 and didn't get to the stage of buying one for that reason alone. Many people like to sail, but are too much on the heavy side for a 12. They then choose other boats that'll take the weight. I for example, am ideal crew weight for an FD or a 505, a Merlin - one design which'll take a bit of weight - or (heaven forbid) even a "flatiron" like the Wayfarer. Or, how would it be to own a Finn?
The alternative is just to take your (single) child along alone to an event like BW. Wifey or Hubby + remaining sprog(s) stay on shore, getting bored or doing other things than sailing, and the whole thing (BW or other events) despite social event alibis turns out to be at the end an egotrip for the lucky few who either are ideal weight adults or have been able to persuade their child crew that they can do well in such an event (even then it's not easy trying to tell an 11 year old to balance to boat when she's heeling "at 15° to 20°" to windward).
Oh, yes plus the tension created by "Spousey" who was promised a "family event" but ended up not seeing the "Other Half" at all except in the early mornings and evenings at the beer and Pimms 6 O'Clock swill, trying to understand the somewhat "private" sailing event jokes and ending up staring out to sea or at their feet and "Spousey's", wishing they'd gone on a sailing holiday on a nice yot in Greece....
Two (part) solutions to the problem. Fewer long weeks, more three day events (parts one and two?). AND a MINIMUM weight. Then perhaps more people will get interested.
Jim. N3470 and N3130 and Tasar 1293
HI
When Meds was last Chairman he pioneered the idea of 'club sailing' weekends every month with a gap in the open calendar to accommodate them because the belief was that sailing at club level is key...
I cannot remember if it worked or not?!
Jane
Derek has a good point here, in that open meetings do little to spread the gospel, as presumably the attendees at open meetings are already converted. That's not to say that opens are not important, merely that they don't foster growth in the class, other than by generating useful publicity in Y&Y.
Our club has developed a good fleet of Finns, from a hard core of 5 two years ago to 15 now, by being out on the water every weekend, encouraging newcomers, tuning each others' boats, lending boats out, and by being seen at or near the front of every race. This seems to be the way to build a class. It does however rely on a few dynamic characters to motivate the others.
This isn't a shot at those who primarily do the circuit. We are all doing this to have fun. Nobody has an obligation to club sail or go to training events or go to opens or to sail a 12 even. Everybody has limited time available and has to do their own thing. I'm merely making the point that the class can only be fostered at club level.
As an aside, who is the class aimed at? ie who is the target convert? I ask because, while I have a cadet crewing for me while she's between boats, generally our cadets are locked into the squad system (oppi, topper, laser or mirror, feva, 420) and would no more sail a 12 than buy a skoda. The people who come up and love my boat all seem to be 30+ (as am I, sadly). Perhaps an issue for another topic.
Yep, I think that Derek is spot on.
I remember the club racing weekends idea but there's a difference between recommending weekends for club racing and actually leaving a sufficient space in the calendar. 50-60 events (even 2000 had 55+ events) spread over 21 weekends of the main sailing sesaon (March-Oct) doesn't leave much space at an average of 3 events per weekend. Especially as at a guess our main intake are people sailing with their kids who are likely to sail mostly in the summer - the visibility for the class would be really useful at this time of year.
It's funny but i think it's almost a reassurance thing - that seeing and talking to a reasonably competent 12 sailor keeps people motivated to sail the class. That and maybe that it gives the impression that the 12 is a handicap bandit ;)!
Tim I am afraid that I tend to disagree with you on some of your points. Derek's point about club sailing being the starting point for all of us is spot on. If we have too many meetings away from our clubs, nobody will be interested in sailing 12s. Open Meetings have to be allowed to die a natural death rather than being culled by the class, it is the clubs job to do that. As has been pointed out by Bernard previously we are in danger of losing Tynemouth as a venue for some fantastic sailing. We have through natural wastage seen the death of four meetings within a twenty mile radius of Nottingham as well as other meetings too numerous to mention across the country.
When I first started sailing 12s as a crew for my father certainly in the north the majority of meetings were traditionally held over two days. By the 1980s there was a move for more and more of them to go to one day events as it does not impinge so much on club resources. Two day events where clubs are geographically close is a good way of fostering interest. The Ripon/Yeadon weekend has worked extremely well for a long time, Trent Valley and Nottingham used to work and yes your two favourite Birmingham clubs used to do the same, If we do not want to go to a particular piece of water we only need to vote with our feet, or more correctly boats. (I do tend however to agree with you on the Olton situation).
Perhaps we ought to ask ourselves why we sail 12s. Did we come to them via our parents and continued to enjoy them when we left home and bought our own rather than borrowing our parents. Or did we come to 12s after sailing some other class and seeing how 12s perform out on the water. I think we have to be realistic about things, we are unlikely to get back to the days of 100+ boats sailing in Burton Week again, there are just too many other things to do. Plus we are not one of the RYA favoured classes for the squad type training and saliing. Would we really want to become Oppie or Topper parents having to race all over the place each weekend, or would we prefer to pick and choose which meetings we sail at?
Finally because of, or in spite of all the things that make a 12 a great boat to sail, and because we are not targets for large amounts of corporate cash we are more and more likely to have to sail in smaller fleets. We still continue to produce in my mind some of the best sailors around when you look at the other classes we are up against. Long may we continue with thought provoking threads like these. :)
Yes, there are certainly some valid points there. But I wonder if opens weren't allowed to die a natural death and we were a bit more focused then we wouldn't be in the position of losing Tynemouth. I'd guess its the repeated turning up with a small fleet and taking up a weekend that's a problem. Maybe if we only turned up every second or third year but mob handed they'd be a bit more amenable?
I'm not sure we should accept the size of the class at present as inevitable. 36 boats at the champs and a few 20 boat opens seems dangerously on the edge. All the other classes mentioned above comfortably exceed us in turnout bar the Tasars and only the one has corporate backing (the Fireflies managed 100+ champs and the Merlins clear 100 most years at Salcombe and then 70+ at their champs). 3500 boats built and maybe 500+ still in good competitive order - we can do better. The trouble being that things only change when the class is forced to.
At the end of the day its less risky to play with the events a bit than trying to physically change the boat. And easy to change back if it doesn't work out.
Tynemouth is an interesting example to use. It's hard sea sailing at it's absolute best - I love sailing there and have had some of my best sea sailing experiences there, but . . . it can be incredibly offputting for those who aren't used to the sea to find you've got to get out of the harbour and into the bay and that you are likely to be doing 3 races back to back in big waves. I wouldn't ever take a novice crew there and that's the limiting factor for me right now - it will be another couple of years before I take Ellie on the sea in the 12 and it's likely to be on the relatively sheltered waters of Filey before I contemplate taking her to Tynemouth.
If you look at the Northern fleet now I guess there are 4 or 5 of us who enjoy sea sailing and a lot more who would rather not go on the lumpy stuff (I stand to be corrected!), and of those 4 or 5 some of us just don't have the crews available at the moment.
I guess my point is that regardless of focus some places just aren't a draw to the current racing fleet and we have to acknowledge that the customer base is changing and move with the times.
RM
Interesting comment in Paul's report on TVSC's meeting last weekend re low attendance. TVSC is somewhere I'd dearly like to come and sail but . . .
- ban on dogs means we either leave someone at home to dog mind or have to put them into kennels
- if I'm to bring Ellie to crew (which I would have done) I wouldn't want to do a 2 day event with her on my own (which would force us down the dog boarding route) at this stage
- two days means either lots of travelling to and from York or paying to stay over (can't get the motorhome to the club due to bridges)
So, sorry I wasn't there, but make it a 1 day, allow dogs again, make sure it doesn't clash and we'll do our utmost to be there.
This issue (not the TVSC matter but the wider issue) is a debate well worth talking more about at Hykeham!
RM
From that horrid bit of river at Trent Valley (where only two people have had problems with the dog ban because we rent the field to the farmer who keeps sheep) may I expand on the comments in the TVSC open meeting report.
My bet it is unlikley that we will hold another two day open meeting because of the poor turnout, and because it is not fair on, (and too embarrassing to ask) the rest of the club to give up their Sunday class racing for us and I'm certainly not going to put in that amount of effort if the N12s don't want to sail here!
So maybe we go for a Saturday only, but why should we bother when this disrupts our training days from which we get our new club members? Although the club is happy to support the vintage/4 plank event in September as we get 12+ attending.
So with the inceasing cost of fuel and our need to get more people sailing 12s, why don't we have a seriously reduced open meeting year (with say only GILLs and vintage?) and concentrate on building up our club fleets?
Sorry to be grumpy but I think we have lost the plot as a class in a very competitive dinghy world - and I'm banned from sailing for six weeks coz of the knee op which means missing not only Hykeham but also the TVSC June vintage/handicap event!
Been thinking about comments here for a few days. Personally I don't think that its the venues themselves that would prevent me attending. Last year we managed 6 Gill events, 3 'other opens', planned to 2 do other Opens but didn't happen and attended one coaching event. So far done NO sailing........
I have events on the calendar planning to do this year - the Gill events are important to support.
Personally its not the 'type' of water that would attract / distract me from sailing there - our sailing time is limited. So choices have to be made - I pretty much did all our Clubs mid week series and maybe one or to of the Club 'trophy' days but thats about it. No 12s to sail against at our club, handicap class turnouts at w/es tend to be small so I'd rather sail against other 12s and have fun that way! Most likely to be the same this year too. It is VERY hard to get a fleet of 12s going - there are very few around - it may help if we know where everyone is sailing - this may help us to have Opens that do I think help to foster some sort of 'local' support. However some of our regions are WAY TOO big. Maybe we need a bit of a cull or at least try to have smaller regional series and try to capture as many local sailors as possible.
I still feel that need to support the new owners that typically come through the AC root and often will be sailing with families and may not be able to do early season events. Even the BW realistically there are 2 trophies for vintage / AC boats....I know this is not the only reason people do / do not attend BW.
It could still be possible to have a BW with over 100 boats, both the fireflies and the ents did this a couple of years ago - and the folks sailing those boats are likely to be quite similar (I would have thought)......fireflies was in their anniversary year, ents I think was pre-worlds - but even so - not everyone is a contender that attends these.
Single handed events - if getting a crew is limiting attendance why not let those that want to sail on their own do that. BW or the Gill events could use one of the trophies for that - there are no youths around currently......:o
For open events - can clubs be more creative - hold joint with other classes, starts with club racing (Burghfiled does this OK), use part of day when no organised racing / training and then join in with club starts in pm. I guess we can't be expected to have sole access to water if not enough attend - but if you drop the events then maybe those places will no longer support / attract 12s back again - a dilema that only the 'customer' (those of us that sail 12s) can answer.
I believe the 12 is now a a bit of a niche boat and tends to attract those that have sailed before and want to get into something 'interesting'. The lure of plastic fantastics though is difficult to ignore! The mid week sailing is a good opportunity to sail the 12s, tend to beat the faster asymetrics on water but they still think they are going faster / having more fun with that extra rag up front!!!!
Looking forward to bar discussions at Hykeham ;D ;)
There are lots of interesting views being expressed. Watch this space, as the Chairman is working on a concise agenda for a discussion at Hykeham on the future direction of the class. Needless to say there will be a paricular focus on attracting new people, and on how to make sure that the NTOA is run by a large and enthusiastic bunch of people that together can devote the time and energy needed.
Constructive suggestions are always welcome, and i think always have been, so please keep them coming and if possible come to Hykeham and/or the AGM at Teignmouth to listen to and participate in a lively debate.
On the subject of the number of fixtures it is not entirely clear to me who sets the number, and i say this as somebody who has been the fxtures guy in the past as well as Chairman twice. In a general sense, for anybody not aware of this, the process is that the regions are asked to go away and come back with some suggested dates and venue while the Gill Series is chosen by the central committee from available options. I am not sure whether the NTOA Committee should really turn around to a region and refuse to publish dates that they have proposed, and so there is a responsibilty on those regional reps to identify the number and the venues. This is how it has been working, whether people realise or not. As i am also Eastern Rep and i can tell you that after 2007 i elected to eliminate two events that were poorly attended, but left in a couple of others that were of tenuous value in the hope that people that wanted them preserved would support them in 2008.
One historical fact, there was a period when we agreed to leave one weekend a month free of any open meetings to encourage club fleets. In the absence of any evidence that this meant more people sailing at their home clubs on the free weekend this constriction was lifted from whomever compiled fixtures the following year. One thing it did highlight was the relatively large proportion of open meeting attendees that were basically without any home club and would not sail their 12 that weekend if there was no open meeting (myself included as N1 is not a good postcode for club sailors).
Finally, do not get cause and effect too confused. This debate about the fixture list is part of a much wider debate...... we have too many poorly supported events because too few energetic younger people are sailing 12s, a stronger class (like Merlins or 200s) can support a much longer list of fixtures that we can at present.
Enough for now,
Antony
Roly Mo has mentioned that Trent Valley does not attract them partly beacuse it's a 2 day event and would prefer a 1 day event. For me in the case of Tynemouth the opposite is probably true. You can never satisfy everyone all the time and I guess it's getting the balance right. Tynemouth has always offered fantastic open sea sailing venue with the facility to launch and even race in the relative shelter of the harbour if conditions are rough and it would be a shame if we were to loose this as an open meeting venue. In fact if you don't count Burton week and NWNW I think we only have Filey as an open sea event that we are planning to do this year. However, Tynemouth as a 1 day event it is not likely to attract entries from far away and will rely on the closer fleets to support it. I regularly used to make the trip for a 2 day event, but in the last few years I have missed it because 6 hours round trip is a bit far for one day of sailing.
Steve
N3436
So with the inceasing cost of fuel and our need to get more people sailing 12s, why don't we have a seriously reduced open meeting year (with say only GILLs and vintage?) and concentrate on building up our club fleets?
Paul for some of us who don't live in the midlands most Gill and vintage meets are out of reach what ever the price of petrol. And the way only be a few boats that turn up for the Scottish meets but I think Roly Mo and Homer will tell you they are hottly competed.
So with the inceasing cost of fuel and our need to get more people sailing 12s, why don't we have a seriously reduced open meeting year (with say only GILLs and vintage?) and concentrate on building up our club fleets?
Paul for some of us who don't live in the midlands most Gill and vintage meets are out of reach what ever the price of petrol. And the way only be a few boats that turn up for the Scottish meets but I think Roly Mo and Homer will tell you they are hottly competed.
Couple of interesting ones here Antony,
"One thing it did highlight was the relatively large proportion of open meeting attendees that were basically without any home club and would not sail their 12 that weekend if there was no open meeting (myself included as N1 is not a good postcode for club sailors)."
Perhaps, but are we running the class for the core of 20-25 crews who attend (mostly thames and eastern area) opens and the Champs - or are we running it for the majority of 12 owners. The decrease of Burton Week to the point that this core makes up almost the whole entry suggests most of the decisions taken in the last few years have been in their (apparent) interests. If we have a couple of seasons of fewer events then I think a lot of these people will find their way back into club sailing and will probably be willing to travel further afield for decent opens (e.g. a 2 day Tynemouth....). Scarcity generally making things more attractive...
"a stronger class (like Merlins or 200s) can support a much longer list of fixtures that we can at present."
But they don't - which is my point... And the 200s (and the Larks who also appear have a youngish demographic) have barely any restricted water events (Possibly 3 on the RS calendar - but that's only an assumption as I don't recognise 3 of the clubs).
On another note I'd like to point out that nowhere on this thread have I used the term 'horrid little river'. The credit there is all down to Stu.
I think that to question the motives of the few people committed enough to the class to give up their free time to run it is more than somewhat unfair. Decisions made in the past are easier to judge with hindsight, and indeed some might have been wrong, but I have never doubted that my efforts and decisions, and those others that i have worked with in the NTOA, were all with the worthy objective of strengtening the class overall. Tim, you need to think a bit before you write things on a forum that people might find simplistic, ill thought out or just rude.
My point about club sailing is simply that the previous time this was raised, now some years ago, the conclusion was that it led to fewer 12s sailing each weekend in the country and that was thought to be a bad thing. If you would rather we all kept our boats in the garage and brought them out less often then fine, but i suspect that you somehow think that we are going to go sailing at clubs that we do not live near or are not members of. I sailed this weekend in a 5 boat fleet where i am pretty sure that only one would have been sailing at all at the weekend had it not been one of the small open meetings that you so despise.
I agree, there probably are too many open meetings, but disagree that it is the most important issue facing the NTOA.
Antony
I sincerely hope that the forum mentioned above isn't the only entertainment planned for Saturday evening at Hykeham - as family events go I don't think sitting talking about the future of the class will do much for Family Clark.
RM
Mandy and I have also just returned from a very enjoyable days sailing and socialising with a 7 boat N12 fleet on a pretty restricted piece of water at Desborough. Without this local Open Meeting I would definitely not have been sailing today, or had the opportunity to talk about sailing National12s with a likeminded group of people.
Maybe this should be what Club sailing is about, but for us the opportunity to sail at a range of different venues is more attractive.
I believe that Tim is trying to make us all think about a very important problem - we would all like bigger turnouts at our major events - but I am pretty sure that culling small, locally supported, Open Meetings will not have any impact on the bigger problem. Having said that, it is a big problem and I for one would be happy to try anything that had a reasonable chance of increasing turnout at the bigger events.
John and Mandy N3443
I must echo Rolys point, I will be coming to hykem with a 13 year old and a possiby a ten year old. If we spent saturday night sounding off our own belovid oppinions and staring at our navels it will be our last summer meet.
I would just like to encourage all those non-competitive N12 sailors to give the open circuit a go. It's not always about winning, or even preserving dignity. Our first ever open meeting was at tynemouth - it was the most fun i've ever had in a boat! I would encourage anybody to attend this event if they can possibly do so. Sailing out of the mouth of the tyne into the north sea is something else, and tynemouth priory in the background is quite awe inspiring. Both myself and my crew were/are rank amateurs and the boat was in poor condition really, with lousy sails, but none of that mattered. It is the only time i have ever sailed on the sea and it was a blast!
I have been to open meetings at ripon, scaling, pitsford and tynemouth - each quite different. From my 'rear of the fleet' perspective, a large meeting like northampton gill series is not as fun as the smaller event - i definitely don't feel as involved in the large events. With the smaller events, you do feel part of it, and 10-20 would probably be ideal in my book (10th or 20th dosent sound as bad a 35th or 50th) I do however understand that the club expect numbers to show up because they have cancelled club sailing to put on the event
I'm only likely to do one day events - Northampton is an exception because I have relatives there. I think the most sensible suggestion to come from the thread is to pair up events one for saturday and one for sunday (perhpas the sunday being mixed in with club sailing, and a separate start for the N12's?)
Youth - how about a youth helm only event once a year, 3 races. if we give it a fixture, perhaps the youth will rise to the occasion? if this is too ambitious, perhaps allow adult crews.
Phil
Good point the youth element Phil but have you read the Hykeham information? The junior championships is at 16.00hrs on the Saturday. I agree 100% with your comments and look forward to seeing you at Scaling on Saturday and Hykeham for a day?
Howard C aka Chadders Nvarious
I too spent a thoroughly enjoyable days sailing on Sunday at Desborough at a really friendly club that was delighted to welcome us and which made a determined effort to do so.
To me, the bedrock of a class is its club sailors. I like open meetings, I’ve done a lot of them, but there is much value in maintaining interest in a class without thrashing about on the motorway system to go sailing, never mind the cost. Club sailing is the base of the pyramid on which a class sits.
If the N12 has moved to “touring†class that only sails at open meetings, then we have to accept that fact and that that number of sailors is ever going to be a restricted number with a limited future.
It then moves to a situation where the class has to request a club to hold an open meeting in order to have somewhere to sail and if the numbers aren’t there then neither are the invites from the clubs either.
If, however, a club wishes to devote time and (voluntary) effort in running an open meeting for a fleet that it sails, from a request from its members, then as long as that club understands the number of boats that are likely to attend, then no-one should stand in its way.
Cast your mind back to when you first started sailing, most, like me, cut our teeth on club sailing not being interested in open meetings (never mind not having the budget at that tender age). How do we encourage young sailors into 12s, eg students or graduates leaving university with a hefty overdraft/loan to pay off and who might be tempted into sailing a hi tech, interesting performance boat (such as any of the AC boats currently on the list) for less than a grand? Not by restricting sailing to open meetings.
To me, its not a cull that’s needed but grass roots support for the benefit of us all.
Howard,
unfortunately my sailing season has been completely wiped out due to an achilles tendon tear in january, and a re-rupture in april - so i'm in a plaster cast for another 8 weeks and then gentle rehab - I am looking at october for my next possible open meeting!
Nice post Phil
Antony,
I’m sorry if I appear a little cynical/sarky:
firstly, simplistic and ill thought out describes most of the reasons given over the years for keeping things as they are and waiting for the dinghy sailing public to realise our true worth… My favourite being why we needed enourmous championship courses â€" something about if we didn’t then everyone would crash at the windward mark….Quick! Cancel the inlands, cancel Harwich! It’s just too dangerous…
Secondly I’m trying to provoke a bit (the internet term may be being a ‘Troll’) to keep the topic turning over and collecting different opinions. This has been the first decent discussion we’ve had on here for ages and for once it’s not about weight/d*gg*rb*rds.
Thirdly I’ve been on the committee, midlands rep, a club rep repeatedly, worked at the dinghy show etc etc. I’ve built up (possibly by accident) club fleets in each place I’ve sailed. I’ve put in plenty of my own time for the class over the past 8 years. I’d also consider as a frequent champs/open meeting sailor, being amongst those 20-25 that I feel decisions have been skewed towards. Therefore I think I’ve got some grounds to question things.
All the things â€" events, dinghy show, BW organisation are essential to the class and it’s great that we’ve got excellent people organising these things. However we shouldn’t overlook the fact that away from ‘official’ commitments we have people achieving something potentially very positive for the class. Hykeham/Up River/Spinnaker/Salcombe/Burghfield (present) and Starcross/Bristol/Saltash (recent past) indicate that if enthusiastic and fast (or not so fast in my case) 12 sailors put in time at their local club then successful club fleets can be built up. It’s not unreasonable to take the view that club sailing is a better use of everyones time and resources in growing the class than 3 single digit open turnouts on the same weekend.
The TVSC open the week before is interesting. When TVSC has a special event (i.e. 70th / Gill Series) lots of people attend, it’s a nice place to spend a weekend even if the sailing is a little eccentric. However plonk it between two other busy weekends and even with no clashes both modern boats and club members were not exactly well represented. If TVSC was every other year and had one, maybe both, weekends either side free then I suspect it would be a popular event. Interesting that it’s not really much further than Aldeburgh so if the open circuit can’t be culled due to all these boats in garages around London raring to go to opens then where were they all (G&Z excepted)? Surely everyone can’t have been busy the same weekend?
Despise? Despise is an odd word to associate with an activity as absurd as paying thousands of pounds for a wind powered boat to then tow it all over the country and sail round in circles. I don’t despise anyone or anything in the class. I think small opens are a questionable use of slots in the calendar. A whole world away from despising them.
Small open turnouts come into the ‘youth’ idea which may be a big red herring in itself. Think about somebody at uni/just graduated, looking for a 2 person hiker:
-If you’ve got some money behind you then you’ll buy a Merlin/200
-If you’re on a restricted budget and you want to be competitive then you’ll be looking at Larks/Fireflies.
In neither case is a 12 a rational choice (though fair point that choosing a boat isn’t generally a rational process), it doesn’t carry weight, turnouts are small*, it’s relatively expensive to be competitive, it’s too ‘development’ for most.
Switch to considering a parent/child crew and the it looks a lot more sensible. Lighter and Faster than an Ent/Firefly with excellently priced club level boats that are reasonably competitive at opens. This is really our ‘public’ and the people we want to consider when arranging our events.
But that’s the start of a whole new thread…..
As a recent convert to 12s I view the various Open meetings in my part of the world (Desborough, Ranelagh etc) as ideal future stepping stones for progressing. We have an Open meeting at Twickenham in October and my overall goal for this season is to be able to participate in this event without embarassing myself too much. Assuming that my 12 sailing is up to scratch I will hopefully then attend Open meetings elsewhere in the Thames region.
The Twickenham Open typically attracts perhaps 8 boats, but we do get some of the top sailors here so clearly they enjoy sailing on the river and think our event is worthwhile.
It is very unlikely that I would attempt to jump from club racing straight to to a major Gill series event. So a cull of small local opens would mean that I never get the chance to progress.
None of our regular club sailors participate in any Open meetings other than the one at Twickenham as they prefer to concentrate on club sailng. I believe that the sight of 3 or 4 12s sailing here twice a week is the key to the growth of the class at TYC.
I am a reasonably good Enterprise helm but after four seasons of always being beaten by 12s in handicap racing I decided I wanted a faster boat! Assuming that I can eventually get to grips with the 12 then there are other possible Enterprise class converts within the club.