Hello,
a bit new here, but have just purchased 3250, which has a Super Spars mast and a very tired set of P&B sails. Hoping to sail her at Loch Tummel with my daughter, in between other things, and will need some new sails at some point, not likely to be looking for perfect set up, but don't want something that doesn't fit/work at all.
If was after a new, or newer set, would I be able to buy them off the shelf, or is the luff curve for the carbon masts different?
On the same vein, would a good second hand suit from a newer boat be worth the money?, or would I need a set specifically for a metal mast.
Not desperate for them now, as daughter is only one and a half!, but would like some advice.
Mark
I had some made up by Kevan at Alverbanks for an old Holt Allen alloy mast last season. This involved measuring the mast deflection at various points after hanging a 20Kg weight from the spreaders with the mast supported horizontally at both ends. I was really pleased with the result.
I suspect the winter sales will be starting soon :).
I work as a sailmaker in scotland and am currently doing a lot of development on national 12 sails as I have just bough one. To answer your question, yes the luff curve of a metal mast is different to a carbon one. This combined with your crew weight and what spec of sail you are after will enable a sailmaker to design the perfect sail for you! As for good second hand sails you will have to be carefull where they came from, Like you said you could end up with something that doesn't suit your mast, boat or what sailing you like to do.
Hope this helps a little. Look forward to seeing you sailing in scotland.
Greg N3473
Hi Mark - looks like Angus held onto the nearly-new, second hand sails he used to use on Killer Custard then!(from N3457). As previous posts have confirmed, metal and carbon spars have very different bend characteristics so if you do go for a better second-hand set go for one that's been used on an aluminium spar - a lot of the later ones will be Superspar anyway. In the end it depends how much money you want to spend - you could pick up a good suit of 2nd hand sails for £150-200'ish which would do a perfectly good job, or you could buy a new set cut for your mast characteristics and crew weight at probably more than three times that amount, depending on materials chosen and availability of sasonal discounts. Given the value of the boat I'd probably go down the second-hand route, get the boat set-up sorted and get out and do some sailing. Good luck! Tim
Is there any restriction on which sailmakers you can use? I am in a similar position having just bought a bagy trousers witha tin mast and it will be a while till i can afford to change it! However a new set of sails will need to be on the horizon soon, but i know a very good local chap i may decide to support.
Tony
N3255
Tony - absolutely no restriction at all on sailmakers but whatever you buy it must comply with the Class measurement rules. Kevan Bloor at Alverbanks has specialised in N12 sails for literally decades so why go to someone else and miss out on all that experience and expertise. Winter seasonal discounts will be starting soon - so if you want to save a few quid perhaps do it that way rather than experimenting with unknown quantities.
fair point tim, i ll keep my eye out for that one!
P&B have got their winter sail on now - I think it's 20% off.
RM
Hi Mark While I was looking for a set of second hand sails I was told that although sails for carbon masts are cut slightly differently they will work ok on a metal mast especially if they where a year or two old. Obviously if you are buying a new set of sails you should get them made specificly for your mast. Cann't wait to see killer custard chomping up the opposition at loch Tummel:D
Dear Roly Mo,
P&B's discount on National 12 sails is actually 15% (not 20%), just like Alverbank's winter discount, but our prices are lower anyway.
And Kevan has been making N12 sails since 1965!
Greetings Mark,
Why not give Kevan a call on 01332 342 586 for some serious advice!
paul@alverbanksails.co.uk (mailto:paul@alverbanksails.co.uk) :K) N2020,N2359,N2487,N3157
Only reading from the Y&Y website . . . 'P&B are currently offering up to 20% off sails (http://www.national12.org/advertisers/linkclick.asp?UALN=5257) (all available to order online)'!
It is worth looking out for second hand suits of sails, my Cheshire Cat sailed very happily with Paul Pellings old sails, and Angus did OK with my P&B ones. One thing to bear in mind if you do buy a second hand suit that the sail plan may not match that on your certificate. This isn't a huge problem but would require you to update your cert and probably move black bands. Give me a call or email me if you need more info on this.
We've added you to our Northern and Scottish mailing list, and look forward to seeing you on the water.
RM
It is my experience that new sails for carbon masts tend to be cut with more luff round and more fullness. I assume this is because the carbon masts are more versatile in terms of how far they can bend and that we can sail with fuller sails and get rid of the fullness upwind by bending the mast.
Most modern sails are made out of a laminate sailcloth. These laminates shrink and the sails become flatter. As a result it is my opinion that older laminate sails orginally built for carbon masts become progressively more appropriate for most metal masts. This may be baloney but is does seem to work for P&B ones anyway.
John
It is worth talking to a sailmaker - fullness can come from two sources in a mainsail, broad seaming and luff round.
If you have a full sail and it is mostly cut with broadseaming rather than luff round, it could suit a metal mast well.
If it is all in the luff curve, this is less likely to work.
The best thing to do is try them up and see if you are overpowered unwind when there is 15 - 18 kts when the mast should start to open the leach and depower.
Angel carbon masts are much more flexible than Superspars and so sails for these tend to be cut with even more luff round e.g. Rowsells.
Hope the collection of everyone's thoughts help you find a cost effective solution.
cheers
Derek 3510
Magic,
thanks for all the advice, I will keep an eye out for things popping up, and if I win the lottery, then might get a new set!
Mark
Just got P&B's Autumn Sale leaflet - they are now offering 25% off sails. Dear Santa . . . .
RM
Hi Guys
contact Alverbank foir their discounted prices. Pretty much all sailmakers offer end of season discounts
Kevan:)
Hi
Alternatively you could contact Dave or Tom @ P&B 01604 592808 or email sailloft@pinbax.com (mailto:sailloft@pinbax.com) to discuss your requirements.
Looking forward to next season you might want to consider a new boat!
The Feeling Foolish moulds that produced the first two boats at the inland championships are ready to be used and there is one build slot left for Easter delivery. Your chance to have what many cosider to be the fastest current Tewlve design with your own deck layout.
Check out the link on the home page to the AARDVARK web site or give Mike a call.
Since this has turned into a sales thread - it is not too late to book your company Christmas party!
Call me!
Jane
If you call us at P&B we probably have a luff line that matches the mast that you have. After all we have been sailing in the class since 1976 or so and are agents for Selden/Proctor and Superspars so know the masts inside out.
We are offfering 25% discount but only for a short while, but best of all we can offer free advice! All three of our directors are N12 sailors and two of them have won the cup and the Champs.
Call us on 01604592808 email tom@pinbax.com (mailto:tom@pinbax.com)
p.s. 15% discount on covers too!
This selling is getting pretty aggressive. I cannot really think of much i can offer, but we do still have the female mould that we built 3482 & 3484 from if anybody wants to use it. If the friend housing it remembers it is there then it will probably have to go to the dump this winter... if not it might still be in her barn a while yet!
Antony
I can do a special offer on veneer if anyone is interested . . . or melamine edging . . . or veneered boards (18mm thick, no plywood), or veneer edging . . . .
Truckloads only . . . . .
Most currencies accepted and open to bartering too
RM
The Christmas Party, Jane we were going to ask you but not sure if your resources would stretch to run a party for a company the size of Aardvarks. Also we thought you would be running the P&B one so did not want you to have a conflict of interest! Will retire to the local pub (again)
I am a little bit confussed, yesterday i was offered 25% off bt P&B and that got me thinking then tooday they offered me 20% maybe I should hold out for 15%. AnD Jane does that include postage or do I have to pay that ontop?
Beer?