I see in the rules you are allowed 3 of these but I can see no definition ... is there one?
Rick
Rick,
the limitations set down are as in Class Rule 11.3.5, and what your sailmaker has supplied.
Intrestingly the ISAF Equipmemt Rules of Sailing don't actually specify what a batten is! Just about the only thing they don't..............................................
If you are thinking of making your own sails best get a copy of the ERS - it will help and tell you what reinforcement, stiffening and patches you can have and the max sizes allowable.................... there's nothing worse for a measurer than to reject a sail, trust me I have had to do it a couple of times; fortunately the sailmakers are still talking to me!
interesting question
i think that rule 11.8 which is about stiffening covers it.
i guess a batten is anything which is smaller than the permitted dimensions that is to be found in the permitted place as your argument to the measurer would then be that it was not stiffening, but rather a batten.
i believe that the americas cup boats have been using inflatable battens which I have probably invested too much time thinking about.
The N12 rules are not based on the ISAF Equipment Rules of Sailing. that said, the ERS are a still a useful place to start to see if something has been defined or not!
john
I suspect you know where I am heading with this ...
So would you be permitted to have sections of your sail that are inflatable?
i.e. inflatable battens on the mainsail ...
I can see no rule on the mainsail to outlaw this but perhaps 11.4.6 prohitits it on the jib ...
i think that the problem lies within 13.1 which among other items prohibits pneumatic equipment. ie you can have something that is potentially inflatable and the only issue is inflating it!
The receptical (i.e. pocket in the sail) isn't "pneumatic equipment" just the pump and if the pump is not taken sailing it's not part of the controlled equipment is it?
Rick
Quotei think that the problem lies within 13.1 which among other items prohibits pneumatic equipment. ie you can have something that is potentially inflatable and the only issue is inflating it!
inflatable buoyancy bags are allowed so I think that shouldn't be an issue.
tom
[quote by=tdml02r link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1171995144,s=6 date=1172045909]
inflatable buoyancy bags are allowed so I think that shouldn't be an issue.
tom[/quote]
I was about to add that point ...
So ... are inflatable sail battens permitted in the mainsail and/or jib?
yes i think they are allowed.
But to use them effectively i think that you would want to be able to control the pressure in them so as to be able to alter the camber. Therefore the use of pnuematic equipment is vital. Battens add stiffness and support. You dont want the air to piss out half way round the burton cup course and then have no battens.
in order to save weight i think that carbon fibre battens rather than the standard blue fibre glass aquabatten ones are a good idea.
Rick,
The formal process (not that it is very formal) is to write a note or email to the Chairman of the Technical Sub-Committee, Jonathan Brown. Jonathan will then consult this expert team, and give an opinion to whoever asked the question and to the General Committee for their consideration.
Jonathan will not notice or respond to a discussion on the forum.
My own opinion on your question is that you might struggle to convince me that any area of your sail that had two layers of cloth was not re-inforcement (assuming it was not a batten pocket).
Antony
[quote by=Antony link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1171995144,s=10 date=1172059791]Rick,
My own opinion on your question is that you might struggle to convince me that any area of your sail that had two layers of cloth was not re-inforcement (assuming it was not a batten pocket).
Antony
[/quote]
Antony, surely the definition of re-inforcement of a sail is a functional one, that is that re-inforcement of the sail results. If the design of the pockets were such that they did not effectively increase the tensile strength of the sail in at least one direction then they would not be classified as re-inforcement, or would they? Batten pockets are, I take it, permitted re-inforcement, since they are designed to take the battens.
I'm not really up on the rules, but it would appear that the latest sail dimension rule changes were made so as to reduce wear and tear on sails, caused partly by the pressure exerted by the bottom batten, which is by rule definition fixed in (relative) position and length in the sail, as well as to "legalise" current sailmakers' manufacturing techniques. If the batten length and position is fixed and if any other pocket or whatever might be considered to be non-permitted stiffening, then I don't see the point of having an inflatable batten pocket, except perhaps of further reducing the wear and tear on the sail.
What are your views on this?
Jim.
[quote by=Jimbo41 link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1171995144,s=11 date=1172062570]
I don't see the point of having an inflatable batten pocket,
[/quote]
Jim,
You can have 3 battens that are controlled quite tightly ... it seems to me that inflatable battens are uncontrolled and you could have as many as you like of any length ... that means that you could design a mainsail with full battens and a nice big roach ... :)
[quote by=rick_perkins link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1171995144,s=13 date=1172063300]
Jim,
You can have 3 battens that are controlled quite tightly ... it seems to me that inflatable battens are uncontrolled and you could have as many as you like of any length ... that means that you could design a mainsail with full battens and a nice big roach ... :)
[/quote]
Rick , you mean like on the NS14?
Jim.
Yep in ACC the batten must remain set throughout the race and cannot be adjusted. They also have to obey the same limitations of width etc that normal battens do.
Jon
Presumably on the AC boats it is also easier to replace and less damaging than a broken carbon one...
ACC boats use inflatable battens because overlapping headsails are faster but the battens get broken during manouvers ... so that is their reason ...
The only reason for doing this with a N12 is to get a nice fully battened main with a nice head profile that is legal ... perhaps
Ah! Rick - you must have deep pockets!!!!!
I had a similar problem but just built 2 boats in a year and 'her in doors said 'nough!
[quote by=John_Murrell link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1171995144,s=20 date=1172092163]Ah! Rick - you must have deep pockets!!!!![/quote]
I don't see this has to be expensive ... build pockets into the sail that are tapered and insert inner tubes from bikes that are cut into tubes with the ends sealed.
Bit of experimentation to get the pocket profiles right but but apart from that seems OK...
Depends if people will shut this door before it gets opened I suppose ...
Trying to envision it in my head but tend to think that inflatable battens might not prove stiff enough to support any significant roach on the main.
The roaches they support on ACC jibs are pretty small with a lot of batten contained in the 'stable' part of the sail - not sure that you'd be able to get enough pressure to support the top of a main, think they'd probably go floppy (and you don't want that...)
:)
[quote by=Tim L (Guest) link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1171995144,s=22 date=1172105316]Trying to envision it in my head but tend to think that inflatable battens might not prove stiff enough to support any significant roach on the main.
The roaches they support on ACC jibs are pretty small with a lot of batten contained in the 'stable' part of the sail - not sure that you'd be able to get enough pressure to support the top of a main, think they'd probably go floppy (and you don't want that...)
:)[/quote]
You could be right - only experimentation will tell ...
Like Tim it is getting the requieste amount of batten stiffness that I cannot get my head round - that is why I suggested pneumatic equipment earlier. I dont think that there would be enough pressure in the innertube, and I think that you would want a sausage tube rather than an innertube.
Too right though, the only way to find out is to have a go.
As a final thought the measurer would probably want to measure the sail in its sailing condition - this is how masts are measured so as to avoid getting them up to weight by having lead attached to the halyard. Under such circumstances how do you get around 11.8.1 - allowing the sale to be folded flat without permanent damage.
Which rule requires the pocket be inflated?
And if it were to be inflated which rule would specify the PSI?
The PSI in the pocket would make a lot of difference to the stiffness ...
11.8.1 would be fine if the pocket was not inflated or lightly inflated and I can't see any requirement that any pocket should be inflated ...
[quote by=rick_perkins link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1171995144,s=13 date=1172063300]
it seems to me that inflatable battens are uncontrolled and you could have as many as you like of any length ...[/quote]
I'm neither an N12 sailor or an RYA measurer, but I would have thought the duck principle comes into place: if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck etc, then its a duck.
Seems to me that your batten material is unrestricted then anything that acts as a batten is subject to your batten rules.
[quote by=JimC link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1171995144,s=26 date=1172221200]
I'm neither an N12 sailor or an RYA measurer, but I would have thought the duck principle comes into place: if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck etc, then its a duck.
Seems to me that your batten material is unrestricted then anything that acts as a batten is subject to your batten rules.
[/quote]
Quite right ... a batten is a long thin bendy stick, usually rectangular in section & blue ... air is well air ...
Not similar at all ...
[quote by=rick_perkins link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1171995144,s=27 date=1172222518]Not similar at all ...[/quote]
Function my boy, function.
[quote by=JimC link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1171995144,s=28 date=1172316996]
Function my boy, function.
[/quote]
I guess it is down to how the rules are enforced ... I have asked the mesasurer so we'll see what the outcome is ...
[quote by=JimC link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool1,m=1171995144,s=28 date=1172316996]
Function my boy, function.
[/quote]
Not wanting to be a pessimist, but what I was trying to quack about before.....
Jim (Peeking Duck)
On the subject of when a duck is not a duck, I'm sur somebody will correct me if I'm wrong but Ain't Bombay duck fish ::)
Hence it doesnt walk like a duck, talk like a duck, taste like a duck..... ;D
Roger