If people were given free reign over their new boat and given the opportunity to ignore some rules to create a better boat, what would they do and why?
I would free up the sailplan and just measure actual area to create a modern looking rig.
More full battens to give better sail life.
Daggerboard to free up the cockpit and reduce cost.
remove need to jib halyard (pet peeve - who ever drops their jib on the water...)
Maybe get rid of some weight 5-10 Kilos.
I am basically looking for a dispensation to build a boat outside of current rules incorporating ideas to bring the class up to date where I feel it should be. If people have other ideas, or think I am going to be wasting my time and money then please say so....
Look forwards to everyones replies!
Mike Cooke
N3xxx - tba
In the spirit of opening up debate (though I know that some people will get very exercised about this), I'd be interested in seeing experiments with the rig (as long as we keep it to 2 sails) - because changes would be relatively affordable and would not necessarily outclass existing boats.
I'd especially like to get rid of the minimum mast weight rule.
However, as a veteran of d*****board debates in the last century, I do not want even to engage in hypothetical discussions on that.
Mike D
N3496
Oops! that should read Jimbo41!
I have made no secret of my enthusiasm for rotating wingmasts... Although it's easy to support things when you don't have to pay for them... Other than the rig and the unmentionable I can't think of anything offhand, although I'm probably a pivoting centreboard kind of chap...
Hi,
I would go along with Mike's wish list, and if someone is prepared to put their money where there mouth is, I think a concept boat would be a great idea.
I have been thinking for some time that 3 sails should be considered, this might seem like heracy, but the reality is that a lot of decisions in the past have been on the basis of the venues where we have traditionally sailed, given the reallity that most of the current fleet only turns up at open meetings and championships, an assymetric might make the class more appealing.
Mikes concept boat with an Asymetric would be a tasty boat for the 21st century!
How about trying to out 200 the 200?
Regards,
David
Thanks for all your comments, all quite helpfull, and yes David, a spinnaker has been considered - will probably build the boat to take one, but still fit in 'normal' 12 rules... I think something around the size of a 400 kite would be about right!
Cheers
Mike
Mike
if you are bringing it up to date - "to where you think it should be" then you probably are wasting your time and money as the whole thing is about building consensus for change rather than imposing a personal view.
innovators by their very nature have to bear the risk and expense of change, be that change to a sailing dinghy rule or something outside of sailing.
I am sure many people would be interested, you would get many comments both supportive and negative but hopefully constructive, and you would achieve the objective of spending either substantial time or money or both.
My personal view is that I dont sail a 12 purely for speed - there is more to it than that. I like the package that we have right now. In my view any changes that would be good for the Class would be lower risk changes which can be assured to bring people in or bring people back to the Class.
I reckon that the best way to advocate change is to build the future vision - this enables a choice to be made (any you can then argue for years as to whether the right choice was made). 12s have been built with daggerboards, modified for assymetrical spinnaker, fully battened mainsails, double bottomed floors, boats with two jibs, lead weighted halyards, leeward jibsticks, canting rigs, winged rudders, (Gavin's boat - can't think how to describe!)....and some of these ideas have taken off and led to changes and others have not.
Go on, be a pioneer, but do so in the spirit that your chances of succeeding are relatively low - otherwise everyone else would want to be a pioneer! Stuff the dispensation route as it has minimal value as far as I can see. Build a National 12 clone if you want, I am sure you will be welcome around the scene. Accept it is a prototype, not the real thing, or build within the rules.
I may like it, or I may not - I will hold judgement until I see it and what it can do.
John M.
Its not really as to whether you like it or not, as to what your ideas for the future of the class are, because I really hope it will have changed over the next 5 years, and with the rules as they are, it will not....
An ultra lightweight narrow wing masted boat kinda like a baby NS14 would be cool I should think. Whether its an appropriate evolutionary route for the N12 is another matter. Weight carrying could be quite an issue and my gut feeling is 13ft woul be a nicer length for current size N12 sailors. After all if you're ging to start a new class do the job properly [grin]
I've got some Bethwaite figures for stiffness on the best NS14 rigs when he was doing his masts if you want to go that route, also of course a Bethwaite Cherub wing mast you could take a look at. All the other wing masts I've seen have been completely up the chute stiffness wise.
Developments boats are interesting but I am still waiting to order my new sails for the results ot the sail plan changes that were discussed at the agm!!!
hmmm all very intresting but i agree with terry has there been any futher development on the proposed sail plan changes?
Jimmy
3458
I'm going to ask Kevan Bloor (Alverbanks sails) about it. It was mentioned in the AGM minutes of August, but to tell you the truth, I didn't understand a word.....
Jim. (N3130)
It is a very minor change with the intention of making a mainsail last longer.
From what I can gather it is now likely to be debated at the 2006 AGM at Porthpean and is unlikely to be voted on before that. Given the need for a quorate vote and RYA approval it seems obvious we have missed the window for the change for this season.
I have made enquiries to ask that the NTOA committee confirm this is the situation so that we can all get on and buy some sails.
Antony
N3484
Antony,
Does this mean that any sail used previously and not conforming to the proposed rule will disqualify the boat concerned? This would be unusual and worrying for me since backend 2005 I ordered a set of Alverbanks based on 1990 measurements for my Tigress N3130.
Jim N3130 (Nutty Shell)
No the intention is that all existing sails will be ok and the rule will be carefully drafted to ensure that is the case.
The intention is that all new sails will last longer - as the revised measurements - akin to taking area from lower down the sail and putting them to the top will give the sail additional amounts of what i believe sailmakers call 'stability'. I dont think it makes the boat any more stable though, but I digress
The 'area' proposed to be moved is pretty minimal, but since it is moving up the sail the assumption is that a new sail would have more power than a new one built to the current rules.
The problem being addressed is the amount of distortion in a sail in the vicinity of the bottom batten.
And this was proposed by the 2 leading sailmakers in the Class.... What nice people.
Whatever, a rule needs to be proposed to the Class, a general meeting to be held with the appropriate days of notice, enough people to attend it to make it quorate, and then enough people to vote for it to get through. A number of hurdles... Personally I think that is a sensible idea given increased sale longevity that will result.
Thanks for your reassuring words John.
Jim N3130 (Nutty Shell)
Oh please, not another added on asymmetric. If lightweights want a boat with a 200 sized asymmetric they can buy a 200. If they want one trapeze, a 29er, two trapeze a cherub or an rs800. Don't get me wrong, asymmetrics are brilliant in the right place (open water - windward leeward) but aren't 'the answer' to every class' perceived problems. On rivers and tidal estuaries, some of the 12s traditional haunts, asymmetrics are dreadful, and race nowhere near their handicap.
By the way, what is the perceived problem? An ageing demographic? Adding an asymmetric won't necessarily attract a younger target sailor as they quite rightly want lots of bang for their bucks, big fleets, even racing, a big party and good residual values. No development class can compete on several of these points.
As an 'outsider' I think the 12 hull looks the part but the rig looks a bit archaic (or at least the main does) and you do seem to moan about the longevity (or lack of it) of the sails.Rather than turning the 12 into a whole new class (like the cherub), why not address this, and throw a roachier semi soft rig like the RS300/700 have?
It isn't necessary to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Not having an asymmetric makes the 12 stand out from the crowd.........mind you, I'm sure having one would be a whole lot of fun!
[quote by=Jimbo42 link=Blah.cgi?b=Cool,m=1135347189,s=19 date=1136578915]Ted, have you ever sailed ANY kind of 12? Jim N3130[/quote]
God no. Mostly trapeze asymmetrics actually! But thats why I don't think they are the answer to every ill. I'm hoping to work up to a 12 presently and thats why I joined the association. However, coming from the outside I was trying to say something about how the 12 looks to someone who doesn't have one but is thinking about it. You might know that the 12 is God's own boat but to keep new members coming in you have to keep convincing non 12 sailors that it is. You need people to look at the boat and say 'Christ, look at that! I want one of those!'
There are loads of newish one designs out there, nearly all have asymmetrics and nearly all are cheaper than a twelve. I was trying to say - Why jump out of your niche - just make the niche bigger.
Oh, and re Merlin Rockets. Invest is obviously the right word. Have you seen how much they cost?
invest is *never* the right word for what you do when spending money on sailboats. Apart from being monumentally inccurate it also leads to all soprtsd of muddied thinking about "preserving value"
Ted, you have the right attitude towards attracting the crowds - however, the 12 enjoys a special niche in British sailing, partly due to "its" design and partly due to its development history. This has always been decided in a democratic way. The major question to be answered at this juncture I think is whether the class can absorb another subclass within it, now that we have Vintage, AC and self-drainers and what might happen to racing, given that the new developments will give the owners of such boats a competitive edge. ? Perhaps we might need yardsticks..... Another question is of course, our status as a National class. Might it be that because we are not internationally recognised as a class and cannot compete internationally we are at a dissadvantage in attracting "young blood" right from the start?
Jim N3130 :-/
Problem with twelves is
a)divided fleet as a conseqence of being a development class (new boats cost real money - sorry Mike) and
b) being subject to a better off population where individuals (helms& crew) are so much bigger than they were some 70 years ago that it is more dificult to put a competitive crew and helm together
The disparity in potential performance is significant enough to discourage people from joining us
Jimmy (bless) would like a boat of 13 ft, I think understand where he is coming from but how can you have a N12 which is 13 ft??! If we are not big enough you need to go elsewhere.
Many of us sail other boats (lasers, ok's, 14's where we are less restrcted in our ability to get afloat and enjoy ourselves, competitively, but still come back to 12 sailing.
I am quite competitive sailing a laser but despite being in the vanguard of the 12 gill fleet (lapped not just overlapped) I probably get more satisfaction from my Design 8.
If I were to "design " a concept boat it would probably, like many others contribution, in reallity not be a twelve but a new class. But would I still have the same problems like getting an adult crew who could be " within weight" with a 13 stone helm? I have recently looked at merlin weights and consider that the small improvement in overall crew wt is not impressive when compared to the additional cost and a symetric spi! If the association were to "improve" the 12 class I suspect that rs200's and albacores would be the winners, and as I don't like varnishing guess where i'd be.
I suspect that a concept boat is likely to bust something which in most members eyes does not need fixing.
Roger
3334
Why not just de-restrict the sail area - have as much as you can carry - which will give lardbuckets like myself who are putting on a significant proportion of their boats weight every year something to think about.
A bit of fine tuning should therefore give a rule that would allow a greater variety of crew weights to sail 12's - the biggest turn off for the class at my club, (Chipstead) at the moment is the perception that you have to be on the small side ie. under 20 stone to be competitive. Hence our thriving Enterprise fleet for young(ish) couples - people who could, and should, be 12 sailors.
Has anyone got a number for Weigh watchers? (Rant over).
Giles
N3319